This interview with initiator Padarthanand was recorded on 9 February 1977 in London by Tony Wade, a premie from Perth who recently visited England.
Mahatma Ji, could you tell me what your schedule is? From now on.
It is a really beautiful opportunity for me since I came to England. I have been travelling around in all different communities, and after England I was originally scheduled to go to West Africa. But I talked to Maharaj Ji last Friday and I requested him if I could go to Malibu for darshan. Maharaj Ji didn't say anything definitely, so I was just waiting for that. Then this morning I got a phone call from Denver to say I can go to Malibu. It is a beautiful opportunity for me to go and see Maharaj Ji. So that's my schedule.
Are you really happy about that?
Sure I'm really happy because I was missing darshan.
Tell me, darshan, Mahatma Ji, how important do you think this is? I'm asking because there are premies that don't get a lot of darshan therefore it probably leaves them in a dry spot sometimes, because Maharaj Ji has explained that darshan is just as important on this path as satsang, service and meditation.
As I have told many times, especially in Australia, that in satsang you have good time very easily. In service when you really put your heart into it, if you understand service and you do it from your heart, you have better time. And if you really put your heart and soul in meditation you have best time. Completely into it, what Maharaj Ji wants us to do. That's our root, meditation; and satsang and service are to support that. But the root of satsang, service and meditation is Guru Maharaj Ji. Without Guru Maharaj Ji, no satsang, no service, no meditation. So Guru Maharaj Ji is the root of satsang, service and meditation. So in satsang as I see it, easily good time. In service, better time. In meditation best time but in Guru Maharaj Ji's presence, in darshan, beyond best. It's very, very important, very, very important.
We can get into a rut of doing satsang, service, and meditation, and also slowly we can lose that focus on Guru Maharaj Ji, we can just lose that love for Maharaj Ji and devotion for Maharaj Ji and when we have darshan of Guru Maharaj Ji, he fills us up. He gives us so much inspiration, he charges our battery. So we can do more satsang, service and meditation.
It's very hard to - like one year I had quite a lot of darshan and at the time I couldn't understand or I couldn't see any benefit. I felt good, I felt high but all the time my mind would still give me a lot of trouble. Would this be due to the fact that I wasn't constant in satsang, service and meditation to appreciate darshan?
See, we have the same problem in all different aspects of Knowledge. If anyone is trying to understand satsang, satsang is not a subject to understand. Satsang is subject of experience. When you just relax into it, when you are cheerful and relaxed then you experience what satsang is, but if you are trying to figure it out then it's so frustrating, you can't understand it. It's beyond mind and intellect. Who is trying to understand? Mind. Or you are trying to intellectualise it, it's so frustrating, so confusing. So don't try to understand it, just experience it. Same with service. People ask me, "Could you please define what service is?" And I have told them that I'm not here to define satsang, service and meditation, that's fine already. I'm not here to define. I'm here to refine it. When you're trying to define that's a big problem. Why define when it's fine already? Just relax and experience it. And through satsang we can refine it. Through experience we can refine it. Same in meditation. We can sit there in meditation and we can experience something. It's not only through our effort that we experience something. In meditation there are two parts, two sides. One is ascending, our consciousness, making sincere effort and ascending our consciousness, and second part takes place, that grace descends on us. When one hand is going up and one hand is coming down then both together it claps. And so it's the same experience in meditation. You ascend your consciousness and grace is descending and "clap". The experience is not only our effort but when we get that
experience, when we see that experience, Guru Maharaj Ji has given us that experience. And when we really beg from our hearts like a beggar then we receive it. But when we receive it and we start to analyse it, define it, try to understand it then it's the mind and intellect. It's so confusing because whatever that experience is, it's beyond mind and intellect. When mind and intellect were quiet, surrendered, then we got an experience; and when we got an experience again we start to take our mind and intellect back and we start to analyse the experience. We can't do that. In the same way, we can try to figure out what we should be experiencing and so on. Or sometimes when we experience darshan, again the mind starts to analyse it. So all we need is just to relax and experience it.
Sometimes premies are subject to many desires and feel that it's okay. Like myself, sometimes I think, "Well, this is okay because I'm doing satsang, service and meditation," and then I find out later that it is a trip. Do you think that this is a bad thing, because it does happen a lot?
See, this is a very controversial subject about desire. It's like there are two extremes. One extreme is that you should never control your desire, you shouldn't suppress it - let it go, let it happen. And the other extreme is that you must not have desire, you shouldn't have desire at all. So there's a "two extremes" philosophy, and people are so flustered because they don't know the right one.
So again, desire is very common, and it can be crazy desire, noble desire, this kind of desire and so on. Some people have crazy desires and those desires are like fire. When you don't control the fire it's going to burn you. And when you burn yourself after some time you will be put in hospital and then you will realise you must control the fire. So even Lord Krishna says, in the Gita, that lust, anger and desire, these are three gates, three doors of hell. So we need to control those crazy desires, and we need to replace those crazy desires with noble desires. Isn't there desire to do satsang, to do service and do meditation and see Maharaj Ji? These are desires but these are noble desires. So the other extreme is that you shouldn't have desire at all, but isn't it desire not to have desire?
There is a possibility, there is a state where we can be desireless, but first we are so down with crazy desires that we need to replace those crazy desires with noble desires. Doing service, satsang and meditation. And when we have that noble desire then there will be finally one very very strong noble desire, and that will be to just surrender completely to Maharaj Ji. To surrender body, sense organs, mind, intellect, heart and soul. Total surrender. When you want to surrender that's also desire, but final desire. When you surrender totally then you are desireless. You become like a puppet, you become like a tool, you become like a machine of Guru Maharaj Ji. He starts working through you. Then your desire is not separate from his desire.
But to be in that state is not easy. At first we need to replace those crazy desires with noble desires and we can get into this rut, this idea of, "Oh, I'm doing satsang, service and meditation," to justify ourself that we are okay But are we really doing it properly? You can have a big pitcher and that pitcher has many little holes and many cracks, and you are putting one glass of water each day, or half a glass or a few drops of water in that, and you can say, "Oh I'm putting some water in to fill it up." But how long will it take to fill that pitcher? It's never going to fill because there are so many holes, so many cracks in it. So we are proud that "Oh, I do satsang, I do service, I do meditation. I'm trying to put water in it." But can we see those crazy desires, how many holes there are? Those crazy desires are many many holes. Many many cracks. So whatever we put in it, all is going out. So we need to be very careful to fill those cracks, to fill those holes, so whatever we are going to put in that pitcher it's going to stay. Then it will take some time to fill it up. That's the way I see it.
So we need so much discipline. Lord Krishna said if you can't discipline your senses you can never control your mind, and Guru Maharaj Ji says when your mind is controlled God realisation is there. So we should ask each other, that we have this justification - Oh yes, I'm doing satsang, service and meditation - but how much are we able to control our mind? People talk about realisation,
Maharaj Ji talks about realisation. He says very simple: When your mind is controlled God realisation is there. We have to honestly ask ourselves, have we controlled our mind? And before we should ask that, we should ask, have we disciplined, controlled our senses?
You can turn on a heater because outside it's very cold. So you can turn on a little tiny heater to keep your room warm, but at the same time open all the windows and doors. How wise that is? In the same way we are trying to do a little bit of service, satsang and meditation to keep warm but we are opening all the doors. All desires just wide open and all these crazy things are coming in. So we've got to be very careful.
Going back to what you said about being completely surrendered and in a state where there's no desire. Is that actually what we should be aiming for as an individual practising this Knowledge, or should we just be living our lives trying to realise Knowledge by practising service, satsang and meditation? In as much as we've got to get to that state where we're totally surrendered and beyond desire.
Actually consciously or unconsciously everyone is looking for that state. Maybe they don't know, and maybe they don't know how to be there. But I know because I understand every and each person consciously or unconsciously is looking for that state, to be there. Maybe, it does sound heavy that "Oh you mean I have to be totally surrendered." Maybe they don't even understand, this word "surrendered" … it sounds silly but for me it's heavenly. It's not a burden, it's a blessing. There is total freedom, complete love, there is complete realisation. So, complete control of mind: we are totally surrendered. Every one of us should be looking to be in that place. Then again, it's up to every individual what he wants in his life.
It's very hard though for premies that have never been in that place, who have just been struggling along and don't even know where they're going in Knowledge. A lot of premies say, "Well, I don't know where I am with this Knowledge, I don't know what's happening, all I know is I've got to keep going doing service, satsang and meditation."
Right. So if they are not there and they don't understand where they are going maybe they will end up going in a different direction. They have to understand where they are going and that's the reason
why we need Guru Maharaj Ji. As Guru Maharaj Ji was giving an example once: when you are flying through fog and cloud you don't know in what direction you are going, so you need automatic pilot. And he said in satsang "I have radar and I can see where you are going," and that's where the importance of Guru Maharaj Ji comes in. Because he can tell us, "Keep going in this direction." And we say, "No, why go in that direction?" because we can't see it. That's where the whole trust and faith and belief and surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji comes in.
We can think too much about it: "Oh when am I going to be in that state." As I have told many times, when you think about being best and best and best and best, when you get into that idea of being best, remember, then you stop doing good and you start going down. And there's so much frustration there. So I say, don't even think about best, don't even think about better, whatever you understand just keeping doing it. That's good, that's good enough. Whenever you keep doing good, automatically it's going to become better, you can't help it. And when you keep doing better, automatically it's going to become best. That's the way it works. So are we even doing good? Or are we stopping doing good and going down? That's the tricky point.
When you say you've got to be practical about Knowledge does that mean you've got to be regimented, really disciplined, with an attitude that you must do this much meditation in the morning and the evening?
Look, this is not a path of force and fear, where I have to force myself or Guru Maharaj Ji has to force us - you must do that. This is not a path of force. It is not a path of fear where Guru Maharaj Ji can say, "If you don't do that you will go to hell in your next life." That's not the point. This is a path of love and trust. How much do we really love Knowledge? How much do we really trust Guru Maharaj Ji and love Guru Maharaj Ji? What's the priority in our life? That's the question. People have a routine in society to fit into society and we are thinking about routine, a certain routine to practise Knowledge. Do we have a routine to breathe? No one has a routine to breathe. Not many people have a routine to eat and drink. When you feel hungry and thirsty you eat and drink. You breathe all the time, there's no rule and regulation there. All rules and regulations and limitations are in this world and this Knowledge is unlimited, so why are we always putting ourselves in little boxes and limiting ourselves? Always we are trying to limit the practice of Knowledge in our own way and we call ourselves so called practical. Is it practical or impractical that we are trying to put infinite things in finite ideas and finite routines?
So first of all, how much do we really understand the purpose of life? What do we really want to do? What is the priority in our life? That's the point. If we can really understand how precious this Knowledge is and what is the priority in our life then everything will help us to achieve that. But if we forget that we will try to add Knowledge to other things. You are so called practical so you have to do this and this and this and this and Knowledge also: that's our strange attitude. Lord Jesus said, "One who will lose his life will gain his life," so without life - do we know what our life is? We think that life is to get a career and be a musician and be this and do that, but that's not life. You are doing these little things because of life. So how important is that life which is making us do these things? So first we really have to understand how precious that life is, and this Knowledge is Knowledge of life.
There has to be a strong desire. If there's no strong desire and someone will ask you to do satsang, service and meditation, you will resist.
But how do we get a strong desire, this is the problem.
How did we get even a simple desire to receive this Knowledge? We talk about having a stronger desire but how did we get a desire in the first place?
It came from within.
Yes, but there are certain situations that are provided for us that helped us, and that comes back to satsang. Before I received Knowledge I went to satsang. It made everything clear: made me understand that the purpose of my life is to receive Knowledge, and why I have to follow Guru Maharaj Ji and so on. So when we came to Guru Maharaj Ji and Knowledge we had a clear view of all things on this path. What is service, satsang, meditation and darshan; that all service, satsang and meditation and darshan are there because of Guru Maharaj Ji. We had that clear view but slowly because of many concepts, ideas and beliefs, philosophies and so many trips that clear view that we had became cloudy. So we need real Knowledge review. A re-view, that clear view that we had when we received Knowledge. And for that first of all we need a lot of satsang, just as we had to have a lot of satsang before we receive Knowledge. And that's it. We need darshan to have a clear view of Guru Maharaj Ji. If we're trying to figure out who he is and so on, you can't have that clear view.
I feel that darshan - this is what I'm surmising - I've been doing service satsang and meditation and trying to keep that together but because darshan's missing I've been leaning towards getting into other things. Would that be due to the fact that I've not been receiving darshan?
Not only because of that because maybe you are not even doing service satsang and meditation properly. You think you are, but you don't know how properly you are doing it.
I heard that when Julie was in Malibu with Maharaj Ji, Maharaj Ji told her to go back to Australia and get Australia ready for his visit. So Maharaj Ji has sent her with a new spirit and strength, and all I'd really like to request all Australian premies is to cooperate with her so that Maharaj Ji can come any time and give darshan. When we are getting off here and there in trips how can we have the consciousness to get together and run a program for Maharaj Ji? So we need to come together first of all in satsang, that's all I can request. When satsang is flowing there is so much inspiration to do service, to do meditation: Maharaj Ji will come.
Maharaj Ji wants to go himself, but if premies are not together then he can't go. He has said already he likes love and unity. If there is no love among premies and unity then it will make it hard for Maharaj Ji to go there. As I heard he is pleased with Australia but that doesn't mean you have to get a big ego about it. Just keep doing whatever you are doing, put a little more effort in satsang service and meditation, and come together.
Well Mahatma Ji, thank you very much.
Thank you to all premies there and jai satchitanand.