Atlantic City Conference
December 20, 1976


Q: Guru Maharaj Ji, could you give me … us …a really simple definition of ashram? Please?

GMJ: I did - intensive care.

Ashram is a shelter - provided by Guru Maharaj Ji, unto which we can come, unto which Guru Maharaj Ji can really work at us, really operate at us, really … because he IS the surgeon, and he knows what's wrong. And it's just like, just like, we get hit by a disease, and we start to receive medication - which is good, which is Knowledge - and we start to receive medication for it, but what we need is an intensive care because our situation deteriorates so fast that for a recovery we need - just for a recovery, from the disease - we need a place to be at, where we can, we CAN be restored. And so Guru Maharaj Ji, this is how Guru Maharaj Ji works, this is like Guru Maharaj Ji's hospital, y'know?

And the point is that - (sneezes?) - ashram is a place, where - there's a lot happens in an ashram, and this is the way that recently a lot of ashrams have been - it has, it has been, it actually, it has been quite wise for people to leave there … in a way - and in a way is hasn't been. Because some of the ashrams and the way they have been, it has been ridiculous. They're worse than a … what's the word? … y'know, I mean just … really bad - y'know with everybody going wild. And there, I mean there weren't ashrams anymore. So they didn't really leave an ashram, because there weren't ashrams, y'know? But, but some WERE ashrams. And the people who leave - left the ashrams were - which weren't the ashram, but WERE so-called an ashram … also affected the premies who WERE in an ashram and … and, and, and, and WEREN'T really experiencing anything - they just forgot about it. Y'know? So that has been that mistake.

And I believe that a lot of, lot of premies in Denver, especially just being near IHQ (International Headquarters), and just being that, being in that building and, and getting surrounded by all the, all the things - because see, I know, I did the, I did the tour. And you see it's always very intense for me when I go to a satsang program because everybody is looking at me, and not's what's in the audience - I'm sitting on the stage. And every - everybody's attention is focused on me and I can really feel it.


I know when I was in Denver - people were so confused, that if there were to have been a curtain in front of me and my eyes closed, I couldn't have been able to feel if the people were there or not there. 'Cuz they were SO confused. I mean it was like literally, a person got up on the stage and said "Well, you can't say Bhole Shri Sat Guru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai, you cannot touch Maharaj Ji's feet, you cannot do this and you cannot do that". A premie is just … it was so much cannot, they didn't know what they could do.

Or what they couldn't do. And it was just like all to us to a point where they were questioning themselves so intensely about this, and of course THAT had been there: question yourself, question yourself; evaluate yourself, y'know? What do you do to evaluate yourself? Pull out a little dip stick, say oh, OK, there's plenty oil and stick it back in, you know? But it's like - it was so confusing, it was so confusing for premies, that in Denver I didn't really feel it.

And then, and then, it was just like - one thing they first showed new, was that they could come to have darshan. And that's where every premie, as they walked by, individually opened up. Individually. Otherwise, you could see, and you didn't see … it, it looked like everybody had dentures on that had put them on bad (?) I dunno. Nobody wanted to - I mean it was just a …such a DEAD vibe in that whole program. To me. Y'know at least that is the way I felt and I experienced it. But, but premies were beautiful within their circles, within themselves. And when they came for the darshan line, individually they opened up, they opened up, as they popped out, yeah, one person came and they opened up and they laughed, y'know? They really like, let it flow. But before it was just … you CAN do this and you CAN'T do this, you CAN do this and you CAN'T do this and they didn't know what they COULD do, because there were so many can'ts.

So the point is that - it was just a super-sophisticated way of, of mind's involvement. And, and, and, and now - just with the new ashram system and, and plus the, the ashram system provided, the old ashram system provided, now is the time and now is the challenge to see well, - y'know, what it can really do, what we can really make out. And it's just that so many premies were unclear in Denver … that it's always just, y'know, it's just a big trip.


So it's like, it's it's such an intense trip … because people LOSE the sight from Knowledge. Whenever people lose the sight from Knowledge, that is exactly what it's - it's NOT the City of Denver that's bad. Of course, it's got one of the highest crime rates, and it's got a … lot of pollution - highest pollution in all the United States. But, y'know, it's it's for premies - for a center of premies. Why should? … Premies will focus to Los Angeles, premies will focus to New York, if that's where it's happening, y'know. Focus anywhere, doesn't matter where it is. But if it isn't happening there, and premies can see it, y'know it's just like - the Mission became a burden on premies. It was like with, with Mission they could do LESS - (than) what they could do WITHOUT mission in their life.

So why blame ashram for it? Because, see - the whole thing got confused. In THEIR lives they weren't getting satsang, so they started to get sick, and they blamed it on the ashram - and it wasn't the ashram. In THEIR, in their life, the, the holy experience, the experience of having other brothers and sisters around who had - who will share the same experience went away, because they weren't experiencing that either. And it's just that … you pull one wheel out of the car and it's just not gonna go. And they pulled out the satsang. Because of, of, of … of a crazy -THEIR own mind trip and, and extension of mind, so it's just like that this got multiplied over a mass … mass extension.

But the point is that ashram IS really a place that we, we all need to come from and, and we - y'know - wanna be there. And some people, like, some people cannot be there, people who are married. Y'know? And, like, with the new ashram system even that poss - possibility is provided. Because married premies can be in ashram. But it will be like probably the whole system will be cut off into three-quarters and quarter - where like the, er, … most of them will be retreats, and then there'll be a whole segment everywhere -possibly - for (pause) … an ashram, ashram programme, regular ashram programme for people who have dedicated, dedicated their lives for a lifetime.


Because it's like, the - if you look at it - there's two ways to look at it. If you look at it one way you can really understand ashram. If you look at it the other way you really can't understand ashram. And, if you look at it from this point of view, this world, and what is my aim, what is my goal in this world - and if you consider your goal, your aim, of being: getting married and -da-da-da-da-da - whatever peoples' concepts, or whatever society says - says whatever - they say that society say.

You don't have to get married, there is no law that you have to get married. There is a law you CAN'T get married under certain … but there is no law you HAVE to get married after you … are so much. Y'know? There is no, there is … I mean it's like - I'm not criticising the fact of BEING married, because I am married myself. But the point is - when we get caught in those concepts - make a decision that is NOT because of those concepts. NOT when people come up to you and say: "Look at me, I'm thirty years old, what's gonna happen to me?" For Christ's sake, that's not the reason why you were born in the first place. Y'know? And that, and that the other involvements that have been in your life maybe have STOLEN an amount of time that they - that you could possibly have dedicated - a whole lifetime - into that experience of what this life is all about.


But if you look at it from the angle of that this life IS really to - to understand Knowledge, is really to understand that experience, THEN ashram really makes a lot of sense. Then ashram is really required, it's really needed.

But if you look at it from the stance of "what am I - what's going to happen to me? I'm forty-five", then - there's no neccesity for an ashram. Because you're really looking at .. at, at, at , at a given perspective. And what - y'know, it's like - that's what your grandmother did, that's what your grandfather did, and that's what your father did, so that's exactly what you're gonna do. Of course your grandfather did it, your grandmother did it, and your father did it, and that's why YOU are there (laughter). But the point is - YOU have to do … is not a necessity. And, and, and that - you make that , you make that decision based on the fact IS because your grandfather did it, your grandmother did it, 'cos if they wouldn't have, you wouldn't have been here, y'know … just … it's obvious - and it goes back and back and back and back. And that doesn't draw a road for you.

So that's … that's the point. Does that answer your question?

Q: There's, there's still confusion, Maharaj Ji, but I know … if I meditate …


GMJ: What is, what is … what is your confusion? I mean …

Q: Um, … maybe I think it's in myself. Because, um … I was in, in Canada, in Canada, and … I watched a lot of ashram premies move out. And I think from listening to other people here I think it was a different thing, or my perspective was different. Because I was applied for the novitiate programme which was being set up in London, and I was applying for that while everyone was leaving the ashram. And it's like it was an ambiguous place, because I was wanting to enter the ashram with such a sincere desire, and nobody knew what ashram was. Y'know? Denver didn't know - and you didn't say anything for, well … we didn't hear anything for such long time from you …

GMJ: No, no, no, that's not the point - the microphone switch was turned off. (laughter). There was a reverberator sitting in the back somewhere reverberating the whole sound - that's not the way I sound. Y'know? It was already - everything has been laid - everything WAS laid out. Y'know? Everything was laid out. But it was just like the way everything was presented after that, y'know, it was really, it was really weird. To MY surprise, because everything WAS laid out. Because … yup, go ahead …


Q: Um … so it just …so I saw that happen but I still went to novitiate program because - and I still feel - that strong desire to, to live ashram life. Um … just , just to really dedicate myself to you and to service you. But I also see … that (pause) … that, uh, I … I need a wife, y'know, I - there was just the one point when I was in the ashram in the novitiate program that, that … FIRST was you, first was your service - but there was a very human part of me that … that needed a wife. And, and that's, that's where I'm at now, y'know, that … and, and I'd like to know, uh, you were saying that, ah, married people can be in the ashram, and if that's … if that's so, then that … there's no confusion.

GMJ: Not forever and ever though. Only for a certain length of time - a certain period supervised by an ashram supervisor - and that's going to be quite a whiles anyway.

The point is - let me ask you one question. There's a, there's a part of, in you - that wants, wants a wife. I don't know this girl's name, but … she at a point was he. And she did get married, I mean - as a he. And DID have some children, but then … has an operation, and now she's a woman. It's like, er, she was on TV and you couldn't say that she was ever a man (laughter). Now the point is, she might get married - again, and play the other side of the role - as somebody's wife. You tell me, is THAT why you need a wife? (laughter)

Do YOU need a wife, or something else needs a wife? (laughter). 'Cos if that something else needs a wife … I mean, there, there are possibilities that you might need a husband. Like she does now. Or is it just … or is it really you?

I mean if you don't really want a wife - it is possible today - you might have a husband. Yeah? So the point is, let's not … let's not - let's not look at it as if that is a human figure - that would be a human necessity, again if that's the way you look at it - that you would need a husband - 'cos you would be a woman. But that's not the way it is.

It really is a desire, for a lot of people, but to me it's merely no more than an extension of mind. To ME it is. Because the point is it's just like having … right now your mind is saying: "A wife". Okay? Is THAT all? Is THAT all that's gonna happen? Is that it? That's it? You're gonna go get married, you gonna have a wife - period?

Why the second thing? All you want is a wife - so catch one. So? And then from that, it's going to be: "Oh, I want … a child; Oh I want … this; Oh I want … that.". See somehow mind has to tap into you - finds your weakest spot, taps into to you. Boom. Y'know? It's like … the reason, why you want a wife - that reason is not going to exist always in your lifetime. And it might not even exist by the time you get back to … Canada. You might have a wreck or something, and (laughs) huh, huh, huh, huh, (sycophantic laughter from audience) you know .. and it's just like that reason might not even exist from here to Canada, despite the fact when you will get old there will be no necessity for it as such. So the point is do you want a wife? That's what a lot people say, that that's what they want. To me that's an extension of mind, that's the way they tapped you … the way you tap it …the way the mind taps.


Q: (only just audible, but concerning whether premies who got married could re-take their ashram vows and re-enter the ashram).

GMJ: I'll ask you a question, and you tell me. You take a stick of dynamite - I mean this is what they should be told - not you, I don't think you got married, but er … please. Ask another question.

Take a huge stick of dynamite - in your throat … and then light the other end of the dynamite, with a fuse - what's gonna happen?




So, whom would you blame that on? You see the point is - who's gotta pay?

It's like, y'know … (pause) … it's almost like - there's a direction been given, and there's a lot of things happening. And when people are really not clear, it is almost like … necessary that they really try to listen to Guru Maharaj Ji. That they will really try to understand. And not trap - people have a very weak habit of trapping themselves.

The point is that they ARE married. OK? And it is ridiculous for them to get divorced. Because, to me, once that bond has been made, and once that has been accepted as that bond as such, y'know that is not a bond to a woman or man, it's a bond to … somebody else. That is ridiculous to break. But the point is who is going to?

And so it's like … because it was an irrational move. It was a wrong move to make. Y'know, just to go out and get married and think that is the answer. 'Cuz it really isn't the answer. And to me, it's that, - and then, and there again, there's another point - when it isn't working out, really bad, when it's really bad, then it's much better to get divorced than to try to stick to your set (?), try to stick to your policy of something. Because then it's really, it's really really like, like hell for the both parties. Because there is no partnership, they are both enemies. Come and fight and barge and so on and so forth.

All I can say is whatever you have sown, reap it yourself. And all I can say is that if it is good, YOU go ahead and reap it. It's all yours. And I'm not going to say that I said so and I'm not going to say I didn't say so. But if it isn't working out then you reap it too. 'Cos to me, y'know that's something that … that's not the way it works.

Now, you can turn around in attitude and really work in that way. And also really try to be strong within you and let the other person - because there's this whole jive about "Oh Maharaj Ji, we can do your service much better once we are married". I don't understand that. I simply don't understand that, y'know? Because - I am now am married, and we're just married - period. That doesn't have to do anything with my service, what does it have to do anything with her service? I mean I just don't understand how you can get married and then your service will all of sudden improve. To me, yes, service between YOURself, to point A to point B will improve, 'cos you'll be with her and she'll be with you, y'know, but that's about it. Not service to Guru Maharaj Ji. Service to Guru Maharaj Ji is a personal and self-dedication. And those premies just really need to come to a strong place. Y'know it's like, in a lot of ways they know it's a flip-flop move, but it's a sad sight. Why did they do that?

You were gonna say something?

Q: (inaudible)

GMJ: No just wait, we're discussing one issue.


Q: Guru Maharaj Ji, I'm married and I'm trying to do your service, and somehow by your grace we got married before we received Knowledge, and …


Don't give me any credit, I don't want it.


Q: What I mean is that - I have a very beautiful wife, and I just … got the vibe that marriage doesn't work - well, it does sometimes, and it's sometimes very beautiful …


Well you didn't get the vibe that marriage doesn't work. You got - the kinda vibe that was being made was that the reason why at the top (?) they got married doesn't work. Think of satisfaction of mind, satisfaction of peace, of somebody thinking very radically "Oh, that's what I need" y'know. And they go out and - that doesn't work.

GMJ: No just wait, we're discussing one issue.


Q: Guru Maharaj Ji, I'm married and I'm trying to do your service, and somehow by your grace we got married before we received Knowledge, and …

GMJ: Don't give me any credit, I don't want it.


Q: What I mean is that - I have a very beautiful wife, and, and I just … got the vibe that marriage doesn't work - well, it does sometimes, and it's sometimes very beautiful …


Well you didn't get the vibe that marriage doesn't work. You got - the kinda vibe that was being laid - was that the reason why at the top (?) they got married doesn't work. Think of satisfaction of mind, satisfaction of peace, or somebody thinking very irratically (radically?) "Oh, that's what I need" y'know. And they go out and - that doesn't work.

Q: So that's what's missing. (?)

Q: What is the reason that people get married? (laughter). I mean … I mean, for myself … I mean I just recently became involved in a relationship and it put me through a lot of changes. 'Cos I saw that all of my notions about men and women together - a lot of them came from my head, and they were weird - and … so, the girl I had been with for couple of months, we constantly asked ourselves: "Well why are we together? We have this connection with Guru Maharaj Ji - that's taking us …" and … if you could just say something about it …

GMJ: What am I gonna say about it? You tell ME what you have to say about it … y'know?

It's just like - YOU have to personify that - if that is an extension of mind or not. If you can somehow find that out, then you answer(s) that question. And that will be same in the individual problem, because, never the answer will be the same for every individual. Does that answer your question, or nearabouts …? (laughter)


Q: Um, I'm from Montreal, Guru Maharaj Ji, and I live in the ashram there, and I don't know what your personal plans are for how to, er … implement the new ashram (coughs) … excuse me … but, I've been working with, er, about ten or fifteen premies who have been talking to me about how they want to move into the ashram, and I'd like to ask you on their behalf - er, I know that there's a few of them that would really like to move in soon, and I want to know what we can do for them.

GMJ: Well, first of all we need a backbone. And the backbone is - ashram for people who want to be there always. That's what we have to do. To me, that is the way I forsee it. For the premies who want to move there for the lifetime - that's the first priority, and that's the first - ashram. Because … other people have already waited for a long time and can wait two more days. But, er … first let's get the ashram programme started back again in the sense that premies who wanna stay there. Once that is done, once that is ready … THEN the new ashram structure can come out of that. Beyond an extension.

But you have to have a solid core behind every ashram, y'know? Every retreat. Because there WILL be a difference. It will, y'know … I don't think it's gonna quite end up being called the new ashram, or something. I think the ashram is gonna be the - THE ashram is gonna be THE ashram. But I think these are gonna - these other programmes are just gonna be called retreat, instead of the ashram.

Because that's what it is, it is a retreat in a spiritual … like taking a vacation - it's like going to a hospital. Y'know, there are … y'know, ah, ah, I mean it's just like - people who'll be coming there, people who'll be experiencing something. But you have to be quite a while in the ashram, y'know, before it actually starts to get to you. So there's so much that has to be cross-sectioned, so much … just like, er - getting in a wreck with a glass that's not safety glass … it splinters all over the place and you just gotta pull every one of them out. And it's a tough job, it's a hard job. But I think as soon as we can get the first basic ashram come, then the retreat can originate out of that. And I think there will be much simpler way to do it. But, er, … I don't mean, it's like the whole, er - even the whole new ashram has to be refined. Because the information has changed, so it has to be refined.


Q: Can I ask you a second question, about how you want to, um, … work with those people who applied for Initiator Development Programme?

GMJ: Yeah. First we take 'em, then we put 'em in a oven (laughter), we bake 'em there for about two hours … then we given them a 10 kilos and send 'em in the desert. And they have to run 10 miles, and then, if they're still alive … they're initiators. (laughter) If they're dead, they're dead. (next two words indecipherable) … the way that we're gonna be, - see, like …

The way I'm gonna be working with initiators is just the way it's supposed to be done, and the point is I'm not gonna be doing like I, like I explained at Bootlake Camp where people come, you tell 'em: "How's your meditation?" and the guy goes: "Fine". "Yeah, OK, whatever you say". "How you doin?" "Fine". "OK, you're not an initiator". It isn't like that. But it is more specific, it's more definite, it's, it's actually a process - well, certain process, a definite process, but a process through which we can dig up, and really find out where the person's coming from. And to enable the person to acquire proper, um, abilities from the experience of other initiators so that that can help them when they go out and they do actually do the job.

And whatever that takes - it might be individual, it might have to be tapered to every, every individual's needs, that's the way it looks like right now. But then it might be done on a massive scale, but then it might not be done on a massive scale.

Right. (laughter) That's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna make them, that's the way.

Yeah, tell me. (almost off-mike: It's gonna be a absurd question). (laughter)



Q: Maharaj Ji I'm not a, um, co-ordinator or anything, but … about half the premies I know - maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong crowd or something because I hang out mainly with premies - but about half the premies I know are … really into smoking pot these days. And, some of them are ashram residents, some of them are just normal premies, or just, y'know … (laughter and applause) … well, you know what I mean. I just - and, you said different, like, y'know, satsangs about it in the past, but, um … premies still are really unclear about the whole thing, and I'm just wondering if you had anything to say about that?

GMJ: Did you ever hear a satsang where I said you could have it?

Q: No.

GMJ: Why do you need a satsang where I can say you DON'T need to have it? I didn't say you need to have it. I never said that. So the point is - it is quite understood. Y'know, it's just like - that would be a very … a very stupid way of doing things. It's like if you had to say the word "the", you said every other word except that one. And that's how you spoke. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine that?

Q: No.

GMJ: Y'know, … in a way, it's completely like you'd go through every word except the word that you wanna speak. And that the point is that … I haven't said that to the premies. And therefore premies shouldn't do it. You know it's that straight. In the path of realisation they're out looking for a substitute. Y'know? They're really trying to see something. There's a lot of … "gerbage" (?) excuses people give: "Oh it does this to you, it does that …" and that's the same thing that Knowledge does … but … more in a sense where it's actually lasting.

There's a lot of, there's a lot of people who drink bhang, in India (transcriber's note for those not versed in some of the more, er … exotic Indian cultural influences that GMJ: occasionally refers to: "Bhang" is a Hindi word for various intoxicating narcotics derived from the plant cannabis sattiva. (OED) The word is commonly used to describe a beverage laced with hashish (cannabis resin), such as "Bhang lassi", a drink of watered-down yoghurt laced with the drug). And I know them, you know? It's just like bhang - y'know, everybody used to drink bhang in ashram. In India. And all of a sudden they would get just … the eye would, the eyes would be glowing red, and you couldn't even talk to them. Y'know, they would be just … somewhere else, in their own little world, y'know, diving in some cove or something. And you walk right past by them and say: "Listen. You know what's happening?" Y'know? And people would just sit there and go to sleep, or do this. And it's just like - there's a Knowledge - see, this is Knowledge that's been revealed to us, this has been given to us - it's more fantastic. Whatever can we ever substitute it for? Why don't we do that, why don't we understand that, why don't we progress in that part? Y'know?

Because I know that a person who is stoned cannot really do meditation. For all the (?) every time he sits down for it he'll fall off. When you … that's when … all your horses go wild. And that's the way it is. Because it's just like … there's no control over anything. And I've seen that, I've seen that. Unless, y'know, that's, that's just like: "because I haven't said it - it means it's OK". Y'know? But I'll have to say everything else except that …(laughs) - every sentence, every word in the book … but not say that, and then premies would understand me. Simple.


Knowledge. There it is. Y'know? Same thing with alcohol, same thing with cigarettes, same thing with, with eating eggs and … all the other stuff. That really influences you. You know I'm surprised that so many people in America don't go "moo" every morning. (laughter) I mean, they eat enough of the cow. They're at least so (?) today. I mean it's like, er, … (indecipherable, sounds like "I mean he") was telling me his father used to eat some tongue all the way to the tail. (laughter) You know, and it's like at least the thing should go moo. Thing did when it was alive, I mean … that's the way, y'know, just … (laughter)

A lot of people are just … they … instead of having brains they just got horsemeat. (laughter) They don't understand (laughs).

(Transcriber's note: here M, without a doubt, is saying that people who eat beef/cow products, and who use dope, drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes and eat eggs all have horsemeat instead of brains in their heads. What he omits telling his premies is that he has indulged in all of those activities himself. From this one can only conclude that being dishonest with the very people who have entrusted their lives to him is evidently part of the role of "Sat Guru". Ah well … to look on the positive side, maybe that's how premies are meant to learn how to discriminate for themselves … eventually.

It must be added that, although "judging for oneself" has always been one of the freedoms M touts as being fundamental to the initiate's own personal evaluation of "taking Knowledge" - once you take that "Knowledge", then making personal judgements becomes an indulgence that is virtually taboo within the cult. To judge is to be "in your mind", and any judgements or evaluations are only valid when made by M himself. In all probability he himself would deny this, or at least say, er … wait for it … "neigh").


It really does affect you, y'know, it's, it's true. Where you have to be really mellow, y'know? To BEGIN with you don't have everything in your favour. To BEGIN with all - everything … against you. And then you stick everything ELSE in there to make it against you, it's just like putting a fire in, and .. and that's not good. Feels mellow, to be just relaxed.

And that's just like in the new ashram programme. Then it's (??? - decipherable perhaps, but not by this transcriber) … y'know, prepare really good food. Good Indian food, and good … good, just good Mexican food, which is, which turns out to be really good, I mean is just good vegetarian food. (???) … who's gonna know what's gonna happen to them? And then, then, there's other premies who are, y'know, just sort of putting … green stuff together - which a … lot of Indian people call "caspous" (?) that means "grass" (laugher). Grass and dried leaves, putting them together and throwing them across, y'know, give it a little real … real flavour, and then I dunno what's gonna happen to put together the recipe so … anybody could cut. And that's that. Because they're really fantastic, I mean - if you would just imagine, y'know … that they would serve food like that on a aeroplane - everybody would get blissed out. When I was flying, er, from New York to, er … Los Angeles, everybody went wild … because of that Indian food, y'know, 'cos the stewardesses came out and there was just a - full of 'em. Very cheap and very delicious. And everybody was just, er … (laughs) … er, er, everytime that happens, y'know everytime they see that food, it's still wild out there … (?)

So the point is that … (???) and satsang.



OK, we still have, er (laughter) … Miami?

Q: Maharaji Ji, um … I feel that things in Miami are … are overall good now, because there's a … a group of premies who really understand, and - "

GMJ: (interrupting) Did you buy that Four Seasons Sheraton yet?

Q: The Four Seasons what …?

GMJ: Sheraton?

Q: Um. No, hopefully in a couple of years we'll have that for you.

GMJ: Ah, good.

Q: Right.

GMJ: Right, gimme a call as soon as you get it (laughter).

So, how has it been in Miami?

Q: Maharaj Ji, it's ah … very - I feel great. Um … I feel in, in my life that I'm just really trying to realise the purpose of my life, and … I feel in Miami that there's a group of premies who really understand, y'know, what they're doing …

GMJ: Yuh, you have to. You have to. Another thing is the community effort - is that we have to expand that a little bit to the other premies that have lost that base, that have lost that touch - to go to them too, not just work with the premies that are already working, but to expand that, to give,er …enough motivation to the other premies who have lost touch to be able to come back again.

Q: Actually I also wanted to comment that um, the problem we had was that when the organisation was going through changes, er … people in Miami, a group of people felt that the Miami community or communities had to kind of get theirself together themselves and there were so many concepts about how we should start forming the organisation and er, do councils,and this and other - and it really threw us, threw a group of people off the track and the main focus, and I think that people were just waiting for direction from the office of Guru Maharaj Ji to, y'know, to tell them to go back to the main purpose.

GMJ: How about … er, Chicago? No - Detroit, in fact. Detroit.

Q: Things are really nice in Detroit right now.

GMJ: How's the Mission?

Q: The Mission is really beautiful right now. There - during the past three months, er, attendance at satsang has just about doubled - it's just increased,and the vibe has more like tripled or quadrupled, and er, … at the same time it seems like satsang started getting really good, and then all of a sudden AMP started getting really good, and that doubled, and er, … right now it's not a big community - I think during a two month period I counted 85 people who were - who I saw at satsang more than a couple of times during that two month period, and that's, that's a bunch of different satellite satsangs all around the city, and then there were about 40 or 45 who came to the programme here from there, but er, it's just - the whole vibe at satsang is very very good.

GMJ: That's good. That's true.

How about Chicago?

Q: Um, Maharaj Ji, Chicago, there is - there's a lot of love for you there, but there hasn't been …

GMJ: Yeah … (chuckles). Yeah?

Q: … um, clear direction there for actually quite a long time, and a lot of the energy's been pretty scattered. But, it like, it comes together periodically and then kind of drifts away, and … I really feel like there's only one thing that's going to bind it together permanently - and that's you.

GMJ: Yeah, well … if that's what needs to be done, that's what shall be done. Point it all up. Huh … Chicago. Yeah. Chicago.

Q: Thank you Maharaj Ji.

GMJ: Some place! I tell you, it's some place. (pause)

It's really some place. I don't know how people live in Chicago. (laughter)

But they manage it. A lot of maya, maya, maya there.

Yeah, you'll be - y'know, all the communities will be getting more communication. And … y'know, getting more information about what is really - how this help's gonna be provided … so on and so forth, - what you really need, and probably when the big conference happen maybe, maybe everybody can participate more - more can come out of it. This is just so that we can give East coast a head start. Because I was here, you were here, understanding was right, so you have a head start. And you can start everything. Happen - let that satsang happen, really, really give that burst of energy into your communities so that … everything can start to unwind, a little bit, and then all winding you up back again.


How about Milwaukee?

Q: Well Guru Maharaj Ji, we had some problems when the ashram closed down, and there was a lot of, um, confusion at that time, and … everybody was sort of very distrustful of each other. Yknow, it's a great amount of confusion.

And then what they found was they just …everybody just wanted to get away from it, they just didn't want anything more to do with Denver, and this distrust and this gap - they, they thought I could bridge that gap. They didn't vote or anything, but it just happened and, … and I was a little distrustful of myself. But it's working now in the sense that people are starting to do service and starting to want to do service, and … out of about 22 active, 15 of them drove here - on about two days notice, and that just, er, did it for me, I realised, slowly, that - well, we're not that lazy, and that you're the only person and - who can do it all, y'know, and that this community was just - nothing else works except you, and they all, they drove 20 hours and - their families, and … just came.

And … well, that, … it really is coming together now and I feel sure and like all of us get back to Milwaukee that … people will begin to realise where, where it's really at. And I know who's always there … everybody that left the ashram - that's another important thing - stable community Guru Maharaj Ji - except those who went to other ashrams. And it's made it so much easier, there was no negativity, really, there was just like … we need to bridge the gap that existed, the distrust … so let us stay and do it …

GMJ: Well that's what you have to do, you have to just get everything back up, at that kind of speed because, y'know, just having the best (?) isn't only in everything.

It isn't the only thing. It isn't everything. You just even have to get even beyond that … and go beyond that, y'know - have more togetherness, and have more prachar (inaudible), … and maybe some day be able to have ashrams again, and have a strong commitment, and have a strong … ashram.


And then we have … uh, … Canada.

How's Canada doing?

Instead of going individually, I'll just ask you …

Q: Since I got back from Frankfurt I haven't, er, been to any communities yet, but I've just been giving satsang, and giving satsang. And I feel like there isn't any problems if what's beginning to happen with me can begin to happen with other people. The organisation we had, I don't see any problems, and everything can develop - ashrams'll grow back again, everything will come together …

GMJ: How many premies are in Canada? All put together?

Q: There's about a thousand active premies, a thousand to twelve hundred. And it's really, I feel it's really, uh … going to be good. There's people here from eight communities also, that made it to this programme … that's most of the communities in Canada.

GMJ: And what do the communities feel?

Q: Well …

GMJ: Pick a sample.

Q: Winnipeg?

(passes microphone to another premie)

Q: Hi, Guru Maharaj Ji. I feel like we really got out there for a while, and uh, even when the ashram closed in Winnipeg things just stopped happening, pretty much, and er, I know personally I lost my focus and I … I really feel it's, er, incredible grace to be here, and, and to be re-focusing the purpose of my life in serving you … and, er …

GMJ: Are you gonna get it together there?

Q: Yeah.

GMJ: Whaddya you gonna do?

Q: Share a lot of satsang, Maharaj Ji, real satsang. When Mahatma Jagdeo (the paedophile mahatma) came through he just … re-directed things and uh, … I know that he started to give satsang and, and er, - it was such a great inspiration for me and a reminder for me, and I started to share satsang, and at first there was some reaction of the mind and people were saying "I can't relate to that", and "I resent that" and stuff like that …

GMJ: Well, it's not your cousin and it's not your brother, so the point is you really can't.


Q: So … but it's starting to come together from the satsang, people are … it's getting through and, and er, … aspirant programmes, and uh, satsang is starting to come together. Seven premies came from Winnipeg here, and it's a community of about 30, and er, I think that it'll be a real, great effect when they go back and, and just share their experiences here and, and uh, … their devotion to you.


GMJ: What about the biggest community in Canada? We've heard about the smallest.


Q: Um. I personally, I personally feel I'm pretty good about my prachar right now Maharaj Ji, because I feel that, um, there's a lot more people becoming involved that weren't involved before, and a lot more people doing service that weren't doing service before, and, and coming to satsang, and because of that they're, theyre, um … they're experiencing for themselves y'know, more so they want to be involved more, and um …


GMJ: How about the ashrams? Is there any ashram in Canada?

Q: There is an ashram in Montreal. There was a mass exodus of the ashram about a couple of months ago - there were, er, seventeen ashram residents and now there's presently five, - two originally from Montreal, and um, … most of these people are still in the community. They went away and they, it was like - they wanted to live their own life, sort of thing, y'know, that thing, and get their own thing together and I remember that at that time, I, I, I myself, I don't live in the ashram and I couldn't, I couldn't understand because I felt that , y'know like er, … really, to live our life is to live - it's to live our life for you, and, and they were leaving, you know? And, um, - but, fortunately most of them are still in the community, and a few of them are realising that, yknow, they have to, um, that to live their own life means -

GMJ: (interrupts) The point is - they don't have their own life.

Q: What?

GMJ: (indecipherable - both speaking at the same time)

… how can, how can they live it?

They're just puppets.


Q: Well …


I don't know …


GMJ: That's really the truth.

That's His way, when you start to live your own life you get a lot of strange things happen to you. 'Cos it isn't your life.

Q: I think they, they experience that and, er, well I get maybe … I - they had to experience that because they thought that it was better on the outside for a while y'know, that's why they had to get out there …

GMJ: Yup, the grass is greener on the other side of the hill.


But er, it's really not true.


Lot of rocks. A lot of cliff.


Oh - we have one, one nice thing that's happening … more than one nice thing but, uh (laughter) … um, the satsang, uh, the attendance at satsang has really increased a lot lately and I, I feel it's because of - we have a, er, a language difference in Montreal, there's French and there's English, it's like a, a bi-culture y'know, and um, right now we had a little survey of what the people wanted there because people were complaining for a long time, like, about the satsang - they were complaining about it, because they were participating - of course, but … so we felt that, um, maybe the best thing to do was what people wanted and that was to have, um, separate satsangs and together satsangs in different languages so that people could

TO BE CONTINUED (if requested)

Apparently there was no such demand, transcribing continued 24th November 2009

Oh - we have one, one nice thing that's happening … more than one nice thing but, uh (laughter) … um, the satsang, uh, the attendance at satsang has really increased a lot lately and I, I feel it's because of - we have a, er, a language difference in Montreal, there's French and there's English, it's like a, a bi-culture y'know, and um, right now we had a little survey of what the people wanted there because people were complaining for a long time, like, about the satsang - they were complaining about it, because they were participating - of course, but … so we felt that, um, maybe the best thing to do was what people wanted and that was to have, um, separate satsang and together satsang in different languages so that people could, um, could really focus on what was happening. They could hear and understand everything and not turn it off because I know myself, you know, for a long time when I first got to Montreal I first received Knowledge about a year and a half ago I started, um, I couldn't understand a word of French, you know, nothing and I went to satsang and it was hard sometimes for me to understand even though I did benefit from it and I feel that a lot of people are very happy with that and um ooh just ah

GMJ: Only thing is I don't speak French either so I'm gonna come down gonna give one program and that's

Q: I hope you come real soon (giggles)

GMJ: It's a possibility

Q: hoo hah would you like haa haa (giggles) do it, do it what ??? many other people from Montreal would like you to, um, have asked me to invite you to come to Montreal not only myself but the whole would like you to come, Maharaji.

GMJ: Montreal Holi (laughter)

Q: It doesn't matter when (sniggers, gulps)

GMJ: You know but ah I feel that now I've got to tell you a few things ??? sit down. Um the point is that I'd like to as the motion goes forward there's a few things that you have to do and I think where where you gonna find best success just to start with satsang and give a lot of satsang not rationalisation, not logics, not trips, you know, but give satsang and the point is not, in a way, you know, not only that but in a way for people to really understand that because it's almost that people have been led to believe that everything has to be rational, that everything has to be in a certain manner, in a certain order and a lot of different words have been used and there has been a lot of different workshops, you know. To me you there's only one thing you do in a workshop, you dismantle things and to me there's one thing that's really true whenever I put things together there's always a few nuts and screws that are left out. You know and the point is that just, just in our lives we get in that workshops and we try to discuss, we all sit down and we give our input and we give our output or whatever that is, you know, we become so systematic that our mind comes out and what we share for hours and hours and hours is just mind, is just mind and everything is like, almost like granted to be multiplied 4 times and people just come there and they just sit down and they just, you know, mind after mind after mind after mind. What do you think about this? What do you think about that? What do you think about this? What do you see the point is I can understand one thing, yes, you stir up mind so that it all gets up in the air to cloud and then everything is done but nobody understands that that cloud is not just gonna disappear if you stir it up. If you stir it up, it's gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and then start getting cold more and more and more. Then its just not a dirt that you can get rid of by blowing at it, it's not just that kind of dirt. You can't just blow at it and get rid of it. You just can't bring it all out and kick it, that's not the way, its absence, its, it's almost like because because see there is something like that that is infinite, and because there is something like that that is infinite, the cloud ?? the cloud part of it which is not infinite, is very finite is mind and you just cannot try to throw it away, you know, you have to really conquer it, you have to really get over that, you know, it's just like a wild horse and its gonna go, its gonna go and don't try to ride it like a lot of people do you're gonna get the broken legs, the broken arms and so on and so forth.

The b??? Thing to do just just mellow out by itself and then ride it away. Let let let, understand, discriminate, understand what your mind does, understand every move that it makes and don't fall into the trap and you can only do that by having a lot of clear understanding of what really satsang, service and meditation and having that experience of satsang, service and meditation. To indulge your life instead of the experiences of mind and instead of the experiences that mind has to give you, to indulge more and more as much as possible, on a day to day basis, hour to hour basis in satsang, service and meditation. Go on with it and you know one thing, that two things cannot occupy the same space at the same time, either it'll be mind or it'll be the experience of Knowledge. If you can have that experience of Knowledge brought in then automatically the absence will go away because there'll be presence so the point is first of all you have to give satsang, that's where you have to start from and let people really understand what this is, what this is all about and it's almost, you have to like not change but bring people back to the to to an understanding of love, to understand the basis of love, what thinks maybe sometimes are not rational. Maybe you cannot rationalise everything. How can you rationalise that? How can anybody rationalise that? What is the proper rational Why should be a Supreme Being? Nobody can rationalise that. Why should there be Grace? Why should there be Knowledge? But those are extensions of mind, that is what mind tells you. Just come back to the logic, to the language, to start speaking the language of love again so we can understand what all that beautiful side is all about, to just come back home again to where we can start to listen, to understand again what that truth really is that is within inside of us, that we can understand the perfect logic, that we can understand the perfect rationale but first we have to know how to speak that language, and we have to know what the language means. And that's satsang, service and meditation. You know, I live that way but to me this is the best way to do it, it's very rational, it's very logical, but it's because of satsang, service and meditation, not because of my mind. My mind, if I let that one go, it'd probably say "No, it's just illogical, it's just irrational, it is da,da,da,da,da." So there ??? we have to just by satsang bring people back to home, bring, bring people back to that understanding. And then, it's just, like we flow, you know, really inspire them and then the prachar has to continue, the prachar has to go on. There need to be more aspirants, there needs to be more propagation and that has to go on and, and let things flow back again.

So, that's pretty much all I have to say, ah, America, people from America, you know, ah, Canada are really luck because they have very close accessess to me and a lotta times, you know, that access really hasn't been used but now because of the situation that access has been made available to everybody you know, the office of Guru Maharaj Ji and, and I, I would like you to run the statistics for me which which was gonna be sent to you by mail but you can run the statistics yourself which is that if there was to be a big festival held somewhere maybe 1978 or 1979. A big festival held, a huge festival in terms of like complete tent cities and and and modular structures and you know, not just tent city but modular structures, facilities of uh living accommodations would be right there not just in a hotel and you walk somewhere but, like 24 hour satsang goin' on, uh, everything right there not using outside facilities and do it in a, in, outside and do it on a international basis where, you know, we would just go in and have a four day festival or a week's worth of festival instead of having three day festival or two day festival it could be where premies get to come and go, you know and enjoy, you know, it's like sometimes it's always like uh "Oh yeah, I have to go, I have to go, I have to go" people keep looking at their time and then some people ask what's happening and you know to just get sort of torn sometimes. If you have like a week off, you know, so the statistics that you wanna learn is how long would you like the program to be a week or four days or three days and when is this time that they would like it to be, how much advance notice they would need and how much support they would give to this kind of a festival because it would be, well it would be inexpensive in a way and also expensive in a way and how many premies would participate in this kind of a festival from every country. Mmm because we don't want to get into it if you know nobody's gonna show up. Because it would be done on an international basis not on a national basis, people would be coming from England, people would be coming from Europe, people would be coming from ??? and we wanna give them advance notice, we wanna get advance places and if that is what's gonna happen we gotta work all through 1977,we gotta work all, all the way through to be able to accomplish something like that. And it, it would be quite a job to do that but it would be possible so would you please run those statistics and uh uh send 'em, uuhmm, to whom (laughter) ???, That's what he said, ??? (laughter) By the way you, you have worked at IHQ, right? (laughter) You have, you have been working close by the transition committee, right? (indistinct discussion with someone)

GMJ: So, you've been working on the transition committee, right?

Well, we actually only met once. (loud laughter)

GMJ: And change everything over. Umm, what is your experience of this, this ??? and the program?

Umm I think the transition's already started (sniggering) ??? the committee could do.

GMJ: Transition from what to where?

Uh, feels like uh from a lotta mind to Knowledge.

GMJ: You think you guys have done enough harm that uh we'll be able to recuperate from it or not? (laughter)

I think so.

You have done enough harm. (loud laughter and the sound of one person clapping)

GMJ: How about you Teddy?

Teddy Tannenbaum: Well uh it seems like uh John was saying in satsang the other night that the word's not really surrender, it's more like give up (Rawat laughs loudly) Maharaji I just, you know this, so many times when you've come to Denver, uh I I felt like I just wanted to leave the office building because I couldn't quite take it and it's so much like I just want to get out of your way and (sniggers)

GMJ: And what?

Teddy Tannenbaum: And step aside.

GMJ: Take what?

Teddy Tannenbaum: Take the uh I guess just the intensity with which you're dedicated to your purpose cause uh sometimes I feel like you talk about uh the harm we can do cause the mind's a pretty powerful thing and it can really get in the way and we lose focus for even a moment, it's like a big block. Even if we get a little bit of attitude, it's like a big boulder right in the way there and when it builds on itself I find I wanna uh all the time ???

GMJ: What is your feeling about this whole trip that happened here?

Teddy Tannenbaum: That happened here?

GMJ: That happened here and last night and yes it is quite, it was it was like it almost turned out to be adverse to what things were being said before, this and no more this and no more that and it was just like there was a lot of concepts blown, there was a lot of people.

Teddy Tannenbaum: Yeah, yeah, I, I (loud laughter) There's a haah there's uh satsang about the uh fire and the heat and when you get near the fire you get pretty burnt and uh I know for myself I felt a little bit scorched, it seems on the edges and uh I noticed last evening I had to let go of a lot of things but it's not, it doesn't really matter what I like or what I don't like or what I feel you know my opinions or anyone else's opinions. It's like somebody told me who who hadn't seen you in quite a while and came to this program She was telling me that when you came up to the stage on on uh Saturday evening she knew why for the first time since she was ever involved, she's remained involved for whatever extent it's been, that it's all because of you and I feel exactly the same way when you come and share with us everything else falls away, the mind just dissolves because that's how, that's how powerful it is and I know that uh I seek that all the time. I just want to put myself in a place where I can let go of all those things, cause my opinions, my likes, my dislikes, I mean I got fed up on those before I heard about you ?? about Guru Maharaj Ji and then when Guru Maharaj Ji came into my life that's what it was all about, that's what it's still all about.

GMJ: How long do you think how long do you think it's gonna take before we start going forward again?

Guru Maharaj Ji I think we started going forward.

Audio files (.mp3) of this speech can be downloaded at Ex-Premie Org - Atlantic City 1976