THE MEANING OF BECOMING AND BEING A MEMBER OF A SMALL AND STRUCTURED RELIGIOUS GROUP

A THESIS SUBMITTED IN FULFILMENT OF THE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DEGREE OF DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY IN PSYCHOLOGY BY CHRISTOPHER ROBIN STONES RHODES UNIVERSITY AUGUST; 1979 GRAHAMSTOWN

TO ANNETTE FOR HER LOVE AND TIMOTHY

As Merleau-Ponty has said, psychological theories can account for everything except the psychology of their creators. Psychological theorists have been inclined to play God, to see things sub specie aeternitatis, egocentrically forgetting that as human beings they can only have a partial and fragmentary and situation bound corrmand of all the essential phenomena, but also forgetting haw their own behaviour transcends their own theoretical fommlations.

Joseph Church - Language and the Discovery of Reality Man is the means by which the earth as well as the universe is revealed as meaning.

Rolf von Eckartsberg On E.'x.'periential Methodology

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

I wish to acknowledge my extreme gratitude to the following persons without whose help and concern this study may never have arrived at completion.

Prof. Dreyer Kruger, my promoter for his insightful statements, enthusiasm and the prompt attention that he gave to the supervision of this thesis.

Messrs. Robert Barnes, Anthony Pinchuck and David Ruthenberg who all willingly agreed to serve as the independent judges required for the validation phase of the research.

The religious group members for their participation in my inquiry; for allowing me to explore the meaning structures of their modes of existence.

My wife, Annette, for her invaluable proof-reading, moral support, and for the time she willingly gave,so enabling me to complete this work.

My thanks are also extended to the Rhodes University Council for the generous grants which assisted towards covering the costs of conducting the present investigation. Opinions expressed or conclusions reached are those of the author and are not to be regarded as a reflection of the opinions or conclu sions of the above financing body.

ii ABSTRACT The concern of this investigation is with the meaning of becoming as well as being a member of one of four specific small and structured religious conmunities. Three of these religious groups the Jesus People, the Hare Krishna Devotees and the Maharaj Ji Premies - are considered to be non conformist in terms of the life-style, value system and theology each adopts within the mainstream social and theological ethos, while the fourth group a sample of Catholic Seminarians like the other groups is a small community with a structured life style, but its life style and value system is not necessarily non conformist.

These groups are all to be found, amongst other places, in Johannesburg, apart from the Catholic Priests, all of whom were living in a seminary in Pretoria.

All the members of these religious communities both men and women who were interviewed were Caucasian, their educational standard ranged from pre matric through to university graduate status, and the overall average age of the group members was 24 years the youngest subject was aged l7 while the oldest was 3l years of age.

Rather than a measurement orientated procedure, a phenomenologically inspired methodological procedure was used to explicitate the data. It is argued that a descriptive phenomenological perspective is more appropriate for the elucidation of meaning-structures, especially with reference to the present inquiry, than would be a quantitative, measurement and mathematical treatment of the subject matter with which this thesis is concerned.

The results are best summarized by stating that, although the explication revealed that the four groups are distinctly different in certain aspects of the meaning structures of the individuals' becoming and being members of a group, there are nonetheless marked similarities between the groups in other aspects of the explicitated data.

TABLE OF CONTENTS ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS .

ABSTRACT .. .. . , , ii TABLE OF CONTENTS _ , _ m LIST OF APPENDICES . . vii PREAMBLE ..

CHAPTER ONE .. . . . T THE DILEMMA OF MODERN MAN .. . .

CHAPTER TWO DESCRIPTIVE IDENTIFICATIONS .. .. H Introduction .. .. . .. . .

A. The B . The C. The D. The Jesus PeopTe .. .. .. .

Hare Krishna Devotees Maharaj Ji Premies . .

CathoTic Priests .. . . . . . . .

CHAPTER THREE PSYCHOLOGY CONCEIVED AS A HUMAN SCIENCE .. .

CHAPTER FOUR METHODOLOGY . . ~ Introduction . .

A. Val B. Re] C. The D. The E. Sci 1.

idity .. . . . .

iability .. .. ..

choice of a sample .. . .

nature of the interview .. .. .

entific phase of the expTicitation .

Introduction .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

An intuitive hoTistic grasp of the data ..

Spontaneous emergence of NaturaT Meaning Units Constituent Profile Description .. ..

4. Second Order Profile ..

5. Clustering .. ..

6. Extended Description .. .. .. .. .. ..

7. Comparison of the group elicited meanings .. ..

F. Rigor of the explicitation tested by the use of intersub jective judgement .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

Results and Discussion .

G. Numeration .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

H. Fulfilment of phenomenologically-required criteria CHAPTER FIVE RESULTS .. .. .

Introduction .. .. .. .. .

@151 (The Jesus People) .. ..

Protocol One (I) .. .. . .

Informational Questionnaire List of Natural Meaning Units ..

Constituent Profile .. ..

Second Order Profile .. .

Protocol Fifteen (XV) ..

Informational Questionnaire .

List of Natural Meaning Units .. .

Constituent Profile .. .. .

Second Order Profile .. ..

Hierarchical Categorization .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

Extended Description of the meaning of becoming and being amember of the Jesus movement .. .. .. .. .. ..

Part II (The Hare Krishna Devotees) .. .

Protocol Seven (VII) .. ..

Informational Questionnarie .

List of Natural Meaning Units ..

Constituent Profile ..

Second Order Profile .. . .

Protocol Twelve (XII) .. .

Informational Questionnaire .

List of Natural Meaning Units .. .

Constituent Profile .. .. . .

Second Order Profile .. .. .. .

Hierarchical Categorization .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

Extended Description of the meaning of becoming and being a member of the Hare Krishna movement .. .. .. .. ..

Part III (The Maharaj Ji Premies) . . . .

Protocol One (I) .. .. . . . .

Informational Questionnaire . . ..

List of Natural Meaning Units Constituent Profile Second Order Profile Protocol Seven (VII) Informational Questionnaire List of Natural Meaning Units .. .

Constituent Profile Second Order Profile . . Hierarchical Categorization Extended Description of the meaning of becoming and being a member of the Divine Light Mission .. .. .. .. ..

Part IV (The Catholic Priests) .. ..

Protocol One - (I) .. ..

Informational Questionnaire . .

List of Natural Meaning Units .. .

Constituent Profile .. ..

Second Order Profile .. Protocol Fifteen (XV) . .

Informationai Questionnaire ..

List of Natural Meaning Units .

Constituent Profiie .. .. .

Second Order Profile .. ..

Hierarchicai Categorization .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

Extended Description of the meaning of becoming and being a member of a Catholic Priest cormiunity .. .. .. ..

CHAPTER SIX THE MEANING OF BECOMING AND BEING A MEMBER OF A SMALL AND STRUC TURED RELIGIOUS GROUP : A COMPARISON .. ..

CHAPTER SEVEN CONCLUSION A PERSONAL ENDING .

APPENDICES .. .. .. .. .

REFERENCES .

LIST OF APPENDICES Aggendix A Apology ..

Aggendix B Key to tables I to V .. ..

Table I (The Jesus Peop'|e) .. ..

Table II (The Hare Krishna Devotees)..

Table III (The Maharaj Ji Premies) ..

Table IV (The Catholic Priests) .. .. .. .. ..

Table V (Summary of certain aspects of preceding tables) PREAMBLE Amm questions the world and the world responds according to the nature of the question.

Stephan Strasser - Phenomenology and the Hmam Sciences Religion has been a subject of interest to the social sciences since their inception, as it is the one social institution which explicitly prescribes codes of ethical behaviour and thought (Lipset, 1964). Throughout their history, all cultures, including our highly technological and reason orientated Western culture, have been infused with a religious sentiment.

Even today, religious belief and action within our culture is still a force to be reckoned with. In both his acceptance of and his rejection of religious belief, man has expressed his fundamental orientation towards, as well as understanding of, the cosmos whether he is guided by benevolent or malevolent spirits, and whether he continues to exist as an entity beyond the point of death (Berger, 1969; Jung, 1973).

Perhaps the best approach to the understanding of religion and religious behaviour is not to examine it from the point of view of doctrine and "belief" but rather from the perspective of what it means to live religiously, i.e. to comprehend the universe through a religious life style (Edwards, 1970; Eister 1974; Goodenough, 1974; Munro, 1975). Furthermore, every religious act ought to be understood from within its own perspective, since that is how the religious adherent views the meaning of his own behaviour.

The majority of work conducted on religious belief and its manifestations has been of a socio-psychological nature with the theorists (Allport, 1950; Argyle, 1968; Argyle and Beit Hallahmi, 1975; Berger, 1969; Durkheim, 1915; Weber, 1963; Yinger, 1962, 1970 inter alia) attempting to correlate various sociological and psychological factors with certain aspects of being religious. Thus, for example, there is a plethora of research (Sanua, 1969 inter alia) into the relationship between religiousness and psychological

adjustment, religious adherence and deviancy and social pathology, as well as research into authoritarianism, prejudice and religious belief and behaviour.

Adding to this abundance is the research dealing with conflict and compromise within that infamous dichotomy of science and religion (Berger, l958; Glock and Stark, l965; Hadden, 1969; Pfautz, l955 inter alia).

To continue with an enumeration of studies conducted on man's religious senti ment and attendant behaviour would be foolhardy, as the literature is extensive and repetitive. However, one aspect does call for comment. The vast majority of research concerning man's religiosity is grounded in a natural scientific framework. That is, the religious phenomena are quantified, measured and thereafter manipulated according to a given experimental design. Consequently, the various disciplines engaged in studying man and his religion have much to say about personality variables and religious behaviour, psychopathologies and different degrees and forms of religious belief, as well as religion and its relationship to social values and attitudes. However, these disciplines say very little, if anything at all, about the meaning of a religious life style from the vantage point of the individual himself. This is precisely where a phenomenological approach is invaluable, since it is explicitly concerned with just such a perspective, namely, with the description of the meaning-structures in a person's Lebenswelt (life world). Apart from the phenomenological study by Munro (1975) into the meaning of ordination for a group of United Methodist ministers, no empirical phenomenological work has been conducted on man's religious life, although there is much theoretical phenomenological formulation in this area (Bettis, l969).

what about work conducted on the particular groups or comnunities looked at within the present study? The bulk of research on the Jesus People, the Hare Krishna Devotees and the Maharaj Ji Premies has been carried out in the United States and ranges from "pop" literature through to social commentaries and academic studies.

The Jesus movement has received by far the most attention, especially in the "pop" areas of evangelism (Jacob, 1972; Knight, 1971; Ortega, 1972; Palms, 1972) and social conmentary and evaluation (Bodemann, 1974; Ellwood, 1973; Hubery, 1973; Roszak, 1976; Rowley, 1971; Smith, 1974). The major empirically orientated academic researchers are members of a team of sociologists who have administered batteries of personality and attitude inventories to groups of Jesus People throughout the United States (Harder, Richardson and Simmonds, 1972; Richardson, Harder and Simmonds, 1972; Sinmonds, Richardson and Harder, 1976). In addition, there is a substantial work by Enroth, Ericson and Peters (1972) on the Jesus People in the form of a factual survey of the American based movement, and an empirical study by Levine and Salter (1976) in which no formal tests were administered. Instead, relatively structured interviews were conducted with the aim of obtaining a wide range of demographic and personal data.

In South Africa, little work has been carried out on the Jesus People. The sum total of research ranges from that of an undergraduate study on authoritar ianism and the Jesus movement (Stephenson, 1973) through to more rigorous research by Le Roux (1974) and Stones (1976, 1977a, 1977b, 1978a, 1978b).

Le Roux was concerned with a comparison of three "hippie" groups the Hell's Angels, the Jesus People, and Mystics living in Hillbrow, Johannesburg. His work is essentially a descriptive analysis of the above groups together with a personality assessment by means of projective techniques of a selection of members of the above groups. Stones, on the other hand, was concerned solely with the Jesus People living in the same area, and his studies were primarily aimed at a measurement of attitude, personality and life style changes as a function of becoming a member of the Jesus movement.

The Hare Krishna movement, although it has received a fair degree of exposure in the mass media, has not been extensively studied. Apart from a few popular social commentaries (Rowley, 1971 inter alia) and an occasional study peripherally

concerned with the Hare Krishna movement per se (Levine and Salter, l976; Smith, Wheeler and Diener, l975), the only detailed studies of the movement are those by Judah (l974a, l974b)»and one of his students (Kellom, l973).

No previous research on the Hare Krishna Devotees in South Africa has been conducted.

The final non conformist religious group in the present study the Divine Light Mission, more commonly known as the Maharaj Ji Premies has, like the Hare Krishna Devotees, received little rigorous academic attention.

Apart from receiving much "popular" support in the mass nedia, ranging from nediocre (Cameron, l973; Rowley, l97l) through to extremely distasteful and biased writings (Larson, l974), the Maharaj Ji Premies have only been margin ally implicated in research concerned more with contemporary movements as a whole (Levine and Salter, l976).

No previous research on the Divine Light Mission in South Africa has been done.

Furthermore, no previous research using a phenomenological approach and methodology has ever been conducted on the above three groups. This conclusion is arrived at after detailed inspection of a number of research catalogues dealing with research dating from l965 to the present. The decision to search as far back as 1965 was taken with the view to extracting relevant and early work on the groups presently under investigation. Since the Jesus movement the first of the non conformist religious groups to appear as a social phenomenon is reported to have emerged during l968 (The International Society for Krishna Consciousness ISKCON was founded in the west in T966

but only emerged as a movement a few years later), it was felt that a search starting from 1965 would be certain to net any seminal antecedent studies.

The research catalogues consulted are listed below.

1Register of Current Research in the Human Sciences in South Africa 1967 and 1968.

Supplement to the 1969 Register of Research in the Human Sciences in South Africa.

1to 1970 inclusive.

KHIC Index of Completed Research (in South Africa) - 1969 to 1974 inclusive.

Research Bulletin (of research in South Africa) 1974 to 1978 inclusive.

National Register of Research Projects 1971 to 1976 inclusive.

Union Catalogue of Theses and Dissertations of South African Universities 1965 to 1976 inclusive.

Rhodes University Theses from 1965 to graduation 1971 inclusive.

List of Theses and Dissertations in Social Work and Related Fields from 1965 to 1970 inclusive.

Catalogue of Theses in Progress at South African Universities 1973 to 1978 inclusive.

American and Canadian Doctoral Dissertations and Master's Theses on Africa.

(from 1965 to 1974 inclusive) (Sims and Kagan Eds.) Psychological Abstracts 1965 to 1978 inclusive.

Theses and Dissertations on Southern Africa : An International Bibliography.

(from 1965 to 1974 inclusive) (Pollack and Pollack - Eds.) United States and Canadian Doctoral Dissertations on Africa. (from 1965 to 1969 inclusive) (Duignan - Ed.)

The fourth group - Catholic Seminarians - was included in the present study since it was necessary to have some type of control group comprising a sample of religiously orientated individuals who, like members of the other groups, are living in a structured group milieu and yet, unlike the other group members, are not necessarily deviant from the mainstream church orientation.

Obviously, there have been many writings on Catholicism reaching as far back in time as the initial phases of the early Christian church. More contempor aneous works range from descriptive documentations (Corbishley, 1950; Greenwood, l956; McKenzie, l969) through to a variety of socio psychological studies.

These focus on, inter alia, Catholic religiosity and attitudes and interests (Bord and Faulkner, 1975; Lee, l975; Long, 1965), personality and attitude differences between seminarians and non seminarians (Hjelle and Aboud, 1970; Schneider and Hall, l972; Vaughan, 1970) and role commitment processes (Schroenherr and Greeley, 1974; Evans and Goldberg, 1970) as well as social commentaries on the position and status of the Roman Catholic church in contemporary society (0'Dea, 1968).

Chapter one of the thesis develops the dilemma of contemporary man, who is seen as being caught betwixt two conflicting and competing cosmologies that of technology and scientific thought and that of religious thought and spiritual symbolism. The former cosmology provides man with a precise analytic view of his world and of himself, but fails to provide him with an ultimate meaning. The latter belief system provides man with meaning, but has, to a great extent, been undermined by the technocracy. Consequently, it is argued, modern man finds himself in the midst of a spiritual abyss.

Chapter two briefly reviews the particular religious communities which form the focal point of this study and which are, more significantly, groups developed by modern man in his attempt to escape the abyss, while chapter three is an exposition of a human scientific approach in contradistinction to a natural scientific approach. Chapter four deals with the actual methodology developed, whiie chapter five presents the resuits obtained by using such a methodoiogy to explicate the meaning of becoming and being a member of the smaii and structured religious communities looked at in the present study. Chapter six is a comparison of the meaning structures emerging from each of the four reiigious groups, while chapter seven presents the discussion of, and the conclusion formuiated in,the present investigation.

CHAPTER ONE THE DILEMMA OF MODERN MAN

we do about ourselves (Berger and Luckman, l967; Edie, l967; Fromm, l974).

Fromm (l963) and others (Edwards, l970; Judah, l974a;Roszak, l974, l976

1inter alia) argue that our western culture is possibly the first totally secular culture there has ever been and that, as a culture, we have disbanded concern with the fundamental issues of human existence. We no longer appear to be concerned with the ultimate meaning of life since the solution may be economically non viable and there is the tacit assumption that God is irrelevant, at least, to life in a technocracy.

Clearly, the attitudes and procedures of the scientific cosmology are very different from those of a religious framework. Science, for example, is public; hypotheses are presented and investigated in an objective fashion.

Anyone is able to re think and re work the data and arrive at similar conclusions to those of the original investigator. Religion, however, is profoundly personal. The religious man and the scientist qua scientist dialogue with their subject of concern in a very different manner, and the implications of their dialogues differ in their reference to the ultimacy of one's life. Furthermore, the social character of religion does not make it truly public, since not only will the interpretation as well as the manifestations vary from one sect to another, but also the event which is interpreted may not be a public event; it may be a private peak experience or merely an everyday occurrence which the religious person feels led to view as having a religious status or as being an act of the Divine (Edwards, l970) whatever the interpretation, however, it cannot be assimilated into the scientific Weltanschauung, since not only were the procedures for collecting data not valid within such a framework, but the phenomenon also generally turns out to be of the wrong order for a scientific perspective; it is not quantified and, even if it can be quantified, its inherent ontological status is thereby reduced, if not totally annihilated. In short, science and religion are different ways of describing the world (Berger, l969; Maslow, l970)

Science is more than just an amalgam of hypotheses and procedures; it is a perspective with a set horizon, its landscape having a particular topo graphy (Nisbet, 1964; Roszak, l97l). Such perspective has given man a certain conception of Nature, of the nature of God, of his own nature and where he fits into the scheme of things. This world view has developed not as a by product of scientific activity, but rather as an inseparable aspect of such endeavours (Fromm, 1960, l963, 1974; Roszak, 1974).

But what is the topography of our landscape? Firstly, what is central to a technological paradigm is the systematic application of rational principles to the ordering and mastery of space and matter (Remy and Servais, l973). This organization of space and matter encompasses not only the physical aspects of a culture but also the social processes. Hence interpersonal relationships tend to be conducted in terms of a market orientation (Fromm, l960, l963) where man begins to view himself and others as commodities, the value of which depends upon their functional utility. His success increasingly becomes dependent upon his successful manipulation of others as well as his allowing himself to be manipulated. As Fitzgerald (l97l) so eloquently points out, "Man has opinions but no convictions, intelligence but no reason, the vote but no sense of power. He is aesthetically sterile, consumes the products of mass society because mass media manipulates him into thinking he needs them." (p. 53) Inherent in the scientific, technocratic world view is the assumption that change and innovation are indicative of healthy progressive development.

Such attitudes spread beyond the spheres of science and technology per se, affecting attitudes towards every type of change. In fact, with increasing regularity, change is being considered as self justifying (Toffler, l97l)

Living within a milieu of rapid social change has certain implications, one, for example, being that social change, previously requiring a century if not longer, now occurs within a generation. Consequently, the past grows increas ingly distant and remote as the present becomes ever more different from traditional mores, values and earlier social codes. Similarly, the future becomes increasingly uncertain because the directions of social change are becoming more tenuous and of shorter duration. The result of such distancing of the past and the future is the exaggeration of the relevance of the present alone (Erikson, l963; Keniston, l970; Leach, l968). Social and interpersonal commitments are almost non existent in such an environment (Sorokin, l964; Toffler, l97l); there is little point in developing intimate and meaningful attachments either to a community, an occupation, or a clique of individuals if the duration of such associations is bound to be cut short. Such termina tion can indeed be painful, but one merely adopts the position of a consumer and purchases a new series of friendships, occupational interests and writes off the loss as being positive in terms of the experience gained (Fromm, 1960, l963).

Hand in hand with the lack of conmitment through the increasing transciency of things, values and relationships goes the development of a "throw-away" mentality through the use of disposable items and built-in obsolescence (Fromm, 1974). Goods are produced to last for a short period only, either by virtue of intrinsic weakness in the product, or by outmoding a given product through the introduction of new versions of the original. Such practices result in the feeling that whatever surrounds one is only temporary and, what is more, their duration is determined by the technocracy (May, l967; Roszak, l97l, 1974). Mass production of "things" further enhances such a mentality, since not only are goods easily replaced, but also they are identi cal. This "throw away" attitude generalizes to individuals, resulting in the failure and, in many cases, the inability, to develop permanent and meaningful

relationships with fellow man. Furthermore, against such a background it becomes difficult to see others in their uniqueness and separateness; to see others for what they are rather than for what they do and for the functions they are capable of performing (Silber, l967).

As Adelman (1973) so acridly asserts, "Our lives are shrouded with a manifest night mare: a complex post-technological culture in which poverty, hunger, racism, mindless bureau cracy, and closet powerbrokers remain, impenetr able as a great swamp of deceiving sunken roots and thick water grass." (p. 23) Another aspect of technocracy is that it is a regime of experts (May, l975).

Technology requires that, to understand the world in which one lives, one must possess a set of specialized intellectual tools. The difficulty with such a regime, however, is that it convinces us that it is only the experts who know and that they alone know everything. we are coerced into believing that, without the assistance of an expert, we are unable to cope, let alone enjoy ourselves, make love and plan a family. we live in a world requiring expertise and yet the majority of us are ignorant (Van den Berg, l974). For those who attempt to understand themselves and their world, the production of new knowledge is overwhelming. More than l00 new journals appear each year and even this growth rate of journals can cater for only a part of the papers written and submitted. Thousands of books, technical and not so technical, appear annually together with a multitude of documentary films.

The "information explosion" is so great that only intricate computer storage and retrieval systems can cope (Larue, l975; Toffler, l97l). For the average citizen there is just too much to assimilate and consequently man becomes gradually alienated. This rapid production of knowledge not only results in the world becoming increasingly inaccessible, but the rapid changes in all

aspects of life also mean that very little can be trusted to endure from one generation to another, that values, institutions and even specific technologies are open to constant revision and change.

"All of us need to understand that God, or Nature, or Chance, or Evolution, or the Course of History, or whatever you like to call it, cannot be trusted anymore...." (Leach, 1968, p.6) Another facet of the technic ethos is that it does not readily admit the existence of mystery (Remy and Servais, l973; Roszak, l97l, 1974); any nwstery is viewed as problematic and hence it is either delt with and solved or it remains a thorn in the side of technocracy. In either case, the phenomenon of mystery has been eliminated and the technological world view remains unscathed (Marcel, l948). But what becomes of the world purged of its sacramental capacities? "It dies the death of the spirit. It may retain for some its pleasing aesthetic surface, but that is of little significance. Beauty cut loose of its sacramental base is a decadent pleasure, and a vulnerable one. For most, the desacralized world is doomed to become an obstacle inviting conquest, a mere object. Like the animal or the slave who is understood to have no soul, it be comes a thing of sub human status to be worked, used up, exploited." (Roszak, l974, p. l27) Mystery served to enrich the lives of men by confronting them with a realm of the ineffable and of wonder. It helped to relate them intimately with the workings of the cosmos (Larue, l975), even if such relatedness required an act of faith; and, as Roszak (l97l) comments, "The truth of the matter is: no society, not even our severely secularized technocracy, can ever dispense with mystery and magical ritual." (p. l48)

Technology operating according to the credo that "the bigger the better, the more the merrier, the greater the haste the less the waste" has developed an industry which by its very nature is prone to cause alienation, and the whole of our culture is stamped by an impersonal character (Bradley, l970; Wallis, 1978). The businesses, organizations, and factories not only produce goods which are "standardized" and impersonal, lacking any individual workman ship, but in addition, the worker finds himself separated from his family and natural community for the greater part of the day. His working environment allows for little comnunication of a meaningful kind with his fellow workers and, more to the point, his environment is inaccessible (Judah, l974a;Van den Berg, 1974). Since he is engaged either in operating a highly specialized machine or in the design of an intricate yet minute aspect or phase of the overall task, he finds himself either unable to comprehend his part in the finished product or to feel that he is in any real way essential for the completion of the task. Perhaps the employer understands, in detail, the finished product, but, more often than not, he is himself specialized in the administrative sphere rather than in the sphere of technique. Consequently with increasing specialization, our world is becoming very distant and we bumnewrmwelwt Furthermore, as Spengler (l976) points out, the attitude of technics is now so internalized that we cannot look at the natural environment without inter preting it in terms of quantifiable units of functional value.

"... we cannot look at a waterfall without mentally turning it into electric power; we cannot survey a country side full of pasturing cattle without thinking of its exploitation as a source of meat-supply; we cannot look at the beautiful old handwork of an unspoilt primitive people without wishing to replace it by a modern technical process." (p. 94)

Yet, despite this rational application of technological principles to all that we perceive, the legitimacy of technocratic authority is continually brought into question by an ever present back-drop of existential questions (Berger, 1969; Greeley, l97l, l972; Power, 1973; Roszak, l974). Every one of us is born, lives amongst his fellow man and dies; regardless of how technologically minded we become, we cannot escape these underpinnings to our very existence. Such underpinnings present themselves as problems and as mysteries provoking man to ask about his origins, his ontological status and his place within the scheme of things (Marty, l973). These questions contain a multitude of further questions, the answers to which play a part in defining the structure of one's value-system. Yet, as already explicated, the technocratic topography has forced the structure of our value systems to take a certain shape the mould of secularization.

Greeley (l972) argues that what concerns man most are not so much the problems solvable by technology, but rather the continuing mysteries despite the technocratic refusal to acknowledge mystery which intimate the transcendency of human existence; concerns of fate, unpredictability and puzzlement. Secular man is convinced that he has come of age no longer requiring religious inter cessions (Burhoe, l974) and yet he is continually concerned, for example, with the problem of death and its implications for his own particular death. Further more, experiences of guilt, remorse and bereavement take man into the realm of bafflement (McCready and McCready, l973). Science and technology may certainly explain such experiences and even alleviate the attendant pain, although not adequately. The sufferer is left with a void, believing that his suffering has little meaning other than its being a physico chemical manifestation, a state of cognitive dissonance or merely a matter of conditioning. what is lacking is a sense of some ultimate direction; an aim to fulfil over and above the aims encompassed by technological expertise.

The religious response to this dilemma is to offer an image of an authentic world order which will account for the ambiguities and paradoxes in human existence. In addition, religion not only describes a world order but also prescribes how one should live and where one's place is within that order (Hill, l973). However, unlike man in a non pluralistic culture where a single homogeneous interpretative framework is inherited, modern man is presented with a host of schemata. One has to "search for meaning" which, although challenging, is difficult and not always successful (Frankl, l97l; May, l967, 1975). Thus in contemporary religious meaning systems man must not only choose his own particular orientation but he must also interpret this system; and it is precisely in areas beyond the domain of technology that the confusion and anxiety become magnified. Not only have interpersonal relationships become more complex, but contemporary psychology also compounds the issue by giving us insight (Greeley, l973) into the depth, height and width of the human psyche which few individuals understand and, in addition, our culture lacks suitable linguistic systems for the understanding of such bafflements (Berger and Luckman, T967; Koestenbaum, 1971).

"when knowledgeable men talk, they no longer talk of substances and accidents, of being and spirit, of virtue and vice, of sin and salvation, of deit ies and demons. Instead, we have a vocabulary filled with nebulous qualities of things that have every appearance of precise calibrations, and decorated with vaguely mechanistic mathematical terms like "parameters", "structures", "variables", "inputs and outputs", "correlations", "inventions", "maximization", and "optimization". The terminology derives from involuted statistical procedures and methodological mysteries to which only graduate education gives access." (Roszak, 1971, pp. l42~l43)

This has been one of the profound crises of our culture; the failure of the technocracy to comprehend that man is not solely a rational and intellectual being but also an affective mythopoetic being who cannot survive on mechanized and systematic predictables alone. He requires mystery and faith (de Ropp, 1968; Milson, l972). Yet a substantial number of everyday occurrences previously accounted for within a religious paradigm can now be explained in terms of rational scientific principles.

Man has learned to question phenomena and to discount answers which smack of emotional, mystical and other non rational components. Greeley (1972) and others (Shea, l973) argue that, although the development of capacities for abstract thought and expression means that myths can no longer simply be accepted but rather must be interpreted and questioned, it does not mean that man can do without myths. To the contrary, mythic world views and religion must consequently become more explicit, since the questioning and interpretive procedures place man at a distance from that which he is questioning. Hence religious comnitment has largely become a matter of free choice, and, even if he does not choose a religion different from that which he was born into, he nevertheless has the awareness that such a choice is possible and that there is the continual option of change (Berger, l969). He has chosen his religious belief and is consequently committed to that and to the ensuing implications (Festinger, l957). The fact that a religious meaning system is freely chosen (Roof, l974) makes the issue of spirituality more explicit than ever before, since, with the possibility of options and alternatives, there comes the weight of decision (Berger and Luckman, l967; Fromm, l96O; Greeley, l973). To add to this dilemma is the knowledge that everything is rapidly changing and that religion is just as labile, while most church attenders are seeking some sort of spiritual stability and interpretive framework from which they can develop a stable and permanent perspective (Berger, l969). Such disharmony further adds to

the syndrome of alienation, isolation and feelings of moral aloneness.

To maintain one's humanity, more is required than the mere acquisition of food and shelter (Maslow, 1954). One has to make sense of one's universe beyond a bland acceptance of it (Rowley, 1971; Wilson, 1970).

One has to be able to formulate some definite statement concerning one's place in the cosmos as well as about one's own roots and future (Frankl, 1971, 1977; Larue, 1975; May, 1967, 1975).

"The decline of small groups such as the family, village, school, monastry, through which most of culture flowed, has been dis asterous beyond imaginings for modern man.

They provide the place ... the group, the "symbolic centre where a person became consc ious of himself, as a member of a people, a party, a family, a larger conmunity." ?HmwMmlWLpp4WML It is precisely this rootedness that many, if not all, small group religions offer; a respite from the strain of overchoice. What is offered is not so much a single product but rather a single way of organizing all data a single weltanschauung to accommodate all other prevalent perspectives, even if it means denigration of these alternative world views.

As Toch (1965) points out, "There is obvious economy in not having to make up one's own mind. There is security in having one's beliefs bolstered by dependable foundations.

There is order in a world containing places to which one can turn for answers. And if one feels that an issue has already been effectively explained, it might appear foolhardy and pretentious to try to go over the same ground with one's own feeble re sources." (p. 136)

Bearing in mind what has been said so far, it is understandable that Roszak (l97l, 1974) should be justified in asserting that, although over the past two centuries western society has been relatively tolerant of subgroups antagonistic towards the prevailing scientific world view, never before has the radical rejection of technocracy assumed such proportions and never before has it occurred within the ranks of our society. Many of those involved in the protest are well educated, middle-class young who have "nothing to loose but everything to gain" by remaining faithful to the mainstream perspective. Greeley and Baum (1973) together with Roszak (1974) argue that such religious renewal is neither trivial nor irresponsible, but, on the contrary, a profoundly serious sign of the times. It is an attempt, on the part of the young, to overcome the image they have of themselves; machines, functional organisms and consumers as well as producers. However, the technic ethos is all too pervasive to justify an alternative paradigm.

This is not to suggest that man requires neither the structure of religion nor that of science, but rather that we have the problem of dealing with the "... fundamental relatedness of the mythic and the scientific. One mode cannot replace the other; the generalizing method of scientific thought cannot do justice to the life of man as he experiences it, and the mythic mode of apprehension cannot remain so specific and concrete that it becomes esoteric or subjective." (Watts, l963: cited in Greeley, l972, p. 86) The issue at stake is not whether we can abolish technology; obviously we cannot. Conversely, increased technological sophistication and control will not help us out of our dilemma either. The solution is perhaps more basic: to question the nature of man and his destiny. Only these answers will once again give us some feeling of our proper image traditionally, that of a creator (Koestenbaum, l97l; May, 1975; Roszak, 1974).

Such questions are usually posed within the rubric of the church (Berger, l969) and yet the Christian churches have been found wanting (Brothers, 1973; Edwards, l970; Stones, 1976). Many individuals, especially those with counter-cultural leanings, do not find community and acceptance within these institutions. furthermore, through compromise and increasing secular ization many of these churches are becoming impotent; they are losing the capability to impart the necessary religious Einstellung required by many people to make sense of meaningful faith within our technological universe (Hadden, l97l; Judah, l974a;Koestenbaum, l97l). In addition, it is important to realize that the religious attitude is an aspect of man's being and that rejection of a theology does not necessarily imply rejection of the experience (Greeley and Baum, l973; Smart, l97l). Such experiences are "... not the metaphysic of knowledge, argument, proof, which is mere philosophy and learning, but a lived and experienced metaphysic; the unthinkable as a certainty,the supernatural as a fact." (Spengler, l96l, p. l0) Given the contemporary dominant cultural ethos, such vital religious experien ces are not only infrequent (Maslow, 1970; Naranjo, l974), but they are also difficult to maintain in terms of their being taken seriously. It is in retaining a sense of experiential plausibility that the small religious conmunity comes into its own. Such communities provide the essential meaning structures required for this sense of new reality (Berger and Luckman, l967; Edwards, 1970; Fitzgerald, l97l; Kanter, l968, l972). This reality is more than a set of theoretical beliefs; it is the person's organic relation to the whole of life (Eister, 1974). In addition, people identify with religion because they need to identify with something and religion is the most intimate and personal value system they have. Furthermore, not only do these small group religions provide a meaning structure, but they also supply

1members with a sense of belongingness and security. More precisely, their structure is aimed at giving individuals a sense of their primordial roots, a project which has the effect of inhibiting change and so slowing down the pace of life (Greeley, 1972). Furthermore, within such communities, group members are able to perceive themselves as significant influences in the lives of others (Abrams and McCulloch, 1976; Stones, l976, l977 a,b); they are no longer powerless. In addition, their discontent with the mainstream value system is legitimized through their religious orientation, and mystery is reintegrated into their lives (Ellwood, l973; Judah, l974a). In the words of Jung (l973), "No matter what the world thinks about religious experience, the one who has it possesses the great treasure of a thing that has provided him with a source of life, meaning and beauty and that has given a new splendour to the world and to mankind." (p. ll3)

CHAPTER Two DESCRIPTIVE IDENTIFICATIONS

T?e paths to God are more in number than the breathings of created beings.

Parsee Introduction This section tries to sensitize the reader as well as the researcher who lived with the groups in question for varying periods of time, the least amount of time spent with any one group prior to the onset of the formal mode of inquiry being six weeks to possible nuances of meaning intimately present in becoming and being a member of one of the groups in question.

While living with the members of these religious conmunities, the researcher strove to adopt their life styles fully by reading their literature, engaging in activities with them, attending their religious services and so forth. That is, the researcher endeavoured to become as one of the members for the duration of his stay with each particular group.

Thus it is the hope of this section to produce a more sensitive awareness to possible meanings which may be discovered in the research protocols.

Hence, the aim of this section is to assist with the rigorous explicita tion of the protocols derived from interviewing members of the particular religious groups which are the concern of this investigation.

The groups are described in the sequence of the Jesus People, the Hare Krishna Devotees, the Maharaj Ji Premies and the Catholic Priests.

1A. The Jesus People The Jesus movement is rumoured to have had its origin during l968 in a small coffee bar The Living Room opened in the Haight Ashbury district of San Francisco. The originality of this coffee bar lay not in the fact that it was being run by evangelical ministers, but in its orientation. It enphasized the experiential aspects of Christianity within a fundamentalist framework, asserting that mainstream society together with the churches was adulterating the pristine teachings of Jesus Christ (Ellwood, l973). This doctrine, which not only imputes that present worldly values are evil, but also looks to the establishnent of a new social order, found much support amongst many counter cultural and alienated youth.

The movement, by accepting Jesus Christ as its leader, is able to condemn legitimately, it feels the mainstream ethos which is seen as wholly demonic and not inspired by God. The movement, on the other hand, adheres fundamentally to a life sty?e prescribed by the Bible; a book revered by mainstream society.

Furthermore, opposition is anticipated, since their leader predicted almost 2,000 years ago: "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John l5: l8 l9) As could be expected, the above theme appealed to members of the Johannesburg counter culture where the present study was conducted. Nelson Nurse (then 30) an ex drug taker, felt an urge to help those coming from a background of drugs and comunal-living coupled with a sense of despair.

1"People are looking for something to believe in. They look to the Establishment it lets them down all the time. The Establishment speaks and tells them to do what it says, not what it does." (Nurse Rand Daily Mail, 29th July, 1972) Consequently, Nurse organized a series of informal church meetings and the Jesus movement was born; the counter culture was ripe for a spiritual injection. In the early stages, the movement used a silk screening process to print posters, stickers and T shirts, which, besides advertising the movement and its functions, also brought in small amounts of revenue. As the movement grew, two houses, a coffee bar, and a basement church were opened. The houses served to accommodate young people who, for one reason or another, were homeless.

The female members of the house are taught to cook, sew, and to engage in other household chores. This not only helps to maintain the house, but also gives the females a feeling of belonging of being able to contribute meaningfully to an organization (Stones, 1976).

For the males, however, the majority of their work occurs outside the house.

The movement under the leadership of Nurse has organized a system whereby young men in the movement are engaged in unskilled and semi skilled labour, the money earned being fed into the movement to finance the running of the houses, the coffee bar, and the church. Some of the male members formed a missing persons' bureau and seemingly have been phenomenally successful, having an advantage over the police in many cases. The Jesus People, many of them former runaways, have an experiential knowledge of the haunts frequently used by fugitives.

1Recruitment operates primarily through a coffee bar which caters mainly for counter-cultural youth between the ages of l7 and 24, the majority of whom are males. The coffee bar is open on Friday and Saturday evenings, and occassionally during the week. Coffee is freely available and, while the guests are conversing, the Jesus People mingle with them interjecting at the opportune moment that the "Lord" is able to solve any problems that one might have. Some of these young people, having no definite place of residence, would frequently accompany the Jesus People back to the house, there to receive free board and lodging for a few days until they either converted or left the house. According to Nurse (personal conmunication April, 1975) only one out of every ten newcomers decides to remain.

The movement also engages in various forms of 'outreach' (street evangelism), usually in the evenings and during the weekend. The fact that proselytiza tion plays a significant part in the group members' life style is not sur prising since, in addition to perceiving themselves as the contemporary disciples of Christ, they hold an apocalyptic doctrine, so that the end being nigh ~ there is an urgency to save "sinners .

"And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of heaven is at hand.... watch therefore; for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.... Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." (Matthew l0: 7 & 24: 42,44) The Jesus People tend to be extremely experience orientated, as is exemplified by their pursual of glossolalia (speaking-in-tongues) and the charismatic nature of their worship services. There is no set liturgy, the service being led by a resident pastor. As momentum is gathered, so the group members begin to speak in tongues and pray aloud. Such an orientation is expected, since many group members still hold values congruent with those of the counter

culture, where emphasis is placed on the here and-now, deferred gratifica tion being considered "straight" and hence undesirable. This emphasis on experiential encounters is epitomised by terminology such as "being high on Jesus", and speaking in tongues is considered to be an indication that the Holy Spirit is with them in the present rather than being a promise yet to come.

In addition to these services, the movement also has regular Bible studies during most week evenings, placing an emphasis on whether one's life style and attendant attitudes are in accord with the Bible. The dichotomy between those who are "in" and those who are "straight" is no longer of prime importance The polarization now exists between those "of the world" (non Christians) and those who by virtue of their life-styles are "in the world" ("saved" Christians) and yet not "of the world".

The Jesus People are in many respects anti-intellectual, continually stressing that one cannot intellectualize about God, but that one must accept and have faith in Christ.

"hritisw?tmn,Iw?ldmtmytmzmsmmoftm wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent... hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" (I Corinthians l: l9 20) The movement has conducted a number of weddings, an outside minister being asked to solemnize the marriage. The ceremonies themselves are short and simple, and the group members - including the couple about to be wed dress casually, the entire proceedings being informal. Epitomising the movement's attitude towards mainstream churches and the tendency of the Jesus People to abrogate responsibility, a married group member said:

"Ne were scheming on getting married but couldn't handle a straight marriage scene so we left it in the hands of the Lord." (Star, 6th June, 1972) Members of the Johannesburg based branch are kept informed of the movement's activities in other parts of South Africa as well as in America and Britain by means of newsletters and other forms of literature.

The religious orientation of the Jesus People may be divided into nine major sections: The Bible, God, Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit, Man and Sin, Salvation, Church, Satan, and Eschatology.

The movement asserts that the Bible is the only book containing the true doctrine and ethical code of how best to live one's life in order to be spiritually fulfilled. II Timothy 3: l6 is cited in support of this belief: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." God is believed to be an existential being whose existence does not require to be proved, God being personally revealed to every "born again Christian".

The Jesus People believe in the Trinity, but place little emphasis on it, the accent being placed upon the saving power of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is believed to have been both man and God, and group members emphasize His death, resurrection, and defeat of death at Calvary. The Jesus People believe in the universality of Christ, maintaining that only He is able truly to save one from the sins of the world.

The Holy Spirit is believed to be both a personality and a deity who heals and forgives sins in the here and-now rather than at some future date. The movement believes in the continual indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers;

this belief embraces an assurance that God is with them and a promise of salvation: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (l Corinthians 6: l9) The movement accepts the doctrine of Creation and hence man is considered to be unique - the only member of the universe created in God's image, although man has fallen through the sins of Adam. Hence contemporary man's likeness to God is distorted.

The Jesus People have faith in the concept of Salvation. This, they believe, involves repentance both intellectually and emotionally, such salvation being possible only through faith in the Holy Spirit. Members of the movement believe that no one is beyond salvation; even the most evil and sinful persons are assured of salvation, provided that they accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour: "Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (I Corinthians 6: l0 ll) Members of the Jesus movement believe in a local church where believers can worship comnunally, as well as a church universal, which implies that Christ is in the being of all people whether they know it or not. Only those people who accept this fact and open their lives to the reality of Jesus Christ are "saved" Christians, and it is only these people who are considered to be living their lives authentically.

The Church is seen as having three purposes: l. To worship God; 2. To evangelize; 3. To aid in the spiritual development of mankind.

Satan is conceived to be just as existentially real as Christ himself a personal being who epitomises evil and is the adversary of Jesus Christ.

Within the movement, there is an unsurpassed certainty that Christ is shortly returning. It is believed that His reappearance will be physical in nature and will be marked by a series of catastrophic events. The purpose of Christ's return is believed to be: l. To put an end to Satan's rule; 2. To resurrect the dead; 3. To raise up the believers and to judge all beings.

The movement believes that two forms of judgement will occur; the first will be a judgement according one's faith, while the second will be according to one's works. After this judgement has taken place, a new social order will be established under the eternal leadership of Jesus Christ.

In summary, it may be said that the Jesus movement "...has its source in the desire for ultimate trans formation which is the ground of all religion. It asks religious questions and gives religious answers.

Young people want something that is absolute, that they can believe in absolutely." (Ellwood, l973, p. l33)

B. The Hare Krishna Devotees The International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON), better known as the Hare Krishna movement, was founded in the Nest as recently as l966

1by Abhay Charan Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, although its roots are to be found in fifteenth century Indian thought, initiated by Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (A.D. l486 l533) (Bhaktivedanta, l972, p. ix). The movement made its first appearance in South Africa during l97l in Cape Town, led by a sannyasi (renunciate) Pusta Krishna Swami. It later spread to Johannesburg where the present study was conducted.

ISKCON has a rigid code of interpersonal behaviour and encourages nembers to search for permanent goals associated with spirituality. The communal life style offersthe devotees intimate and meaningful personal relationships which, in general, sharply contrast with the counter cultural and alienated life styles which many of them had previously led. The devotees do not necessarily come directly from the mainstream culture to the movement, but may previously have left the mainstream ethosin search of a viable counter-cultural alterna tive.

One of the major tenets of the movement is that an individual cannot progress spiritually on his own, but must accept guidance from an authoritative guru or acharya (spiritual master). ISKCDN teaches that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is the only authorized master in a line of succession reaching back to a fifteenth century Indian sage Chaitanya. The devotees are encouraged to submit totally to this bona fide spiritual master, and are taught that, by accepting proper guidance, they will be led back to Krishna (believed by the movement to be the supreme personality of God) and spiritual ecstasy.

The attainment of Krishna Consciousness involves the practice of four regula tive religious principles (see later), acting piously and engaging in devotional

1service. In addition, there are a number of moral principles that should be practiced without selfish motive, since it is felt that sinful acts are grounded in selfishness (Bhaktivedanta, l972, pp. 68, 404, 5ll).

ISKCON's theology centres around the belief that we are separate and distinct from our bodies, and are actually paramatma (eternal spirit soul), but that, unfortunately, we have a tendency to misidentify with our bodies which are temporary and material. It is felt that bodily identification results in much unnecessary suffering, since it is not we who grow old, become diseased and die, but our bodies. Identification with our bodies results in our falsely believing that actually we are suffering from these ailments. Hence a major concern of the devotees is to help the real eternal inner selves of people to attain Krishna Consciousness, rather than assisting them with the temporary conditions of their physical bodies. Thus it is believed that the only efficacious welfare work is that of reviving people's spiritual conscious ness (Bhaktivedanta, l974, pp. l3 29).

For the devotees, temple life entails inter alia continual concentration on Krishna, their faith being enhanced by both reading and discussing literature about Krishna, through the almost unceasing recitation of the mahamantna ( a sound vibration aimed at delivering one from one's material inclinations the mahamantra was first prescribed by Chaitanya. A mantra is considered to be more than just a prayer. It is said to be an embodiment in sound of a particular deity; it is the deity itself. The m?hamantra adopted by 15KC0N is as follows: Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama, Hare Hare, Hare Hare.) through listening to recordings of Prabhupada s lectures and through witnessing to others.

Although the movement is ostensibly open to anyone who desires to join, re gardless of race, creed or education, the devotees have definite criteria as

1to whom is accepted to live in the temple. For example, only those seriously interested in Krishna Consciousness are admitted, and one must be willing to follow the regulative principles. In addition, one cannot reside in the temple while continuing the use of narcotics.

The devotees wear Hindu clothing; the unmarried men wear saffron coloured dhotis (robes), while the married wear white dhotis (This conflicts with Judah's (l974a) p. 84) description of the married devotees who, according to Judah, wear yellow dhotis). The women wear saris. The men shave their heads entirely bar a small tuft(sikha)at the crown of the head. This signifies that they have devoted their lives to serving a personal Godhead - Krishna.

Each morning (they rise at 4.00 am) the devotees anoint themselves with tilaka (a wet mixture of clay imported from the Ganges river) on l2 parts of their body, each part representing a specific deity. These markings indicate that they are Vnishnaves (monks who believe in a personal God, as opposed to an impersonal force), and that their bodies are temples of God (personal conmuni cation, April, l976).

A new convert (neophyte) must reside in the temple, carefully observing the regulative principles for six months (although there are exceptions to this rule) before being eligible for initiation. The initiation ceremony follows the Hindu tradition of offering certain foodstuffs together with flowers to Krishna, as well as offering obeisances and the burning of incense. The initiate receives a Sanskrit name, the ceremony being conducted by an author ised sannyasi or by Prabhupada himself (which is rare, since Prabhupada has only once visited South Africa - in l97S).

The first stage of spiritual life as a brahmachari (celibate student) generally lasts for one to two years, whereafter the devotee is permitted to marry and become a grihastha (householder). The married devotees live in dwelling units

1separate from the temple itself, unlike the brahmacharis who reside in the temple, sleeping in a dormitory.

ISKCON has its own marriage ceremony, which, instead of primarily denoting a relationship between man and wife, signifies the union of both and their submission to Krishna. It is believed that one is only truly able to love one's spouse if one first loves Krishna. The ceremony, closely following the Hindu tradition, takes place round a sacred fire that has been built and lit by a sannyasi.

The third stage of spiritual life is that of uanapzustha ("retirement"), when one is supposed to retire from normal daily activities and spend one's time in meditation. This is not recommended by Prabhupada, and hence no members of the movement take up this stage of spirituality.

The fourth and final stage is that of sannyasa (renunciation), where one gives up one's family and household possessions to engage in preaching only. There are many sannyasis in the movement who generally travel from temple to temple preaching and inspiring the other devotees.

Although these four stages are hierarchically established, a brahmaehari may take sannyasa without going through the two intermediate stages.

women are regarded as being less intelligent than men and as being untrust worthy. It is considered that, although women should be given as much freedom as men, they should be regarded as children and require protection (Bhaktive- danta, 1972, pp. 64, 200, 732). women may not occupy any position of authority but may do the cooking and assist with the devotional services and temple maintenance. It is cogent to note that, although the females' social role is one of deference to men, their spirit souls are regarded as being equiva lent to those of the male devotees.

1Members of ISKCON engage in Bhakti-y0ga (devotional service) to Krishna, believing that such service results in a cessation of misery and unhappiness, and the gaining of ecstatic spiritual happiness. Furthermore, it is taught that the attainment of Krishna Consciousness results in the termination of re incarnation at the time of death and the establishment of an eternal loving relationship with Krishna.

Krishna Consciousness is attained through the astute observance of four regulative principles: l. No gambling This prohibition ranges from subtle forms of gambling such as mental speculation, through to gross forms such as betting on the outcome of sporting events for monetary gain.

2. No intoxicants This prohibition covers coffee, tea, tobacco, illegal drugs and alcohol.

3. No meat eating including fish and eggs.

4. No illicit sex Illicit sex refers to any sexual activity not performed with the explicit aim of child bearing, and the use of any form of contraceptive is frowned upon.

Apart from following the above four principles, each devotee is encouraged to perform japa the private chanting of the mahamantru. This is done by reciting the mahamamtra once for each of the l08 beads (one round) on one's mulha (bead chain), the aim being to chant at least l6 rounds each day. It is said that lO0 beads are for one's own spiritual welfare while the remaining eight are an offering for the benefit of fellow man. Although there is a set time for chanting japa; devotees will chant japa whenever possible while performing various chores.

1The diet (termed prasadam, meaning food that has been offered to Krishna) is vegetarian and highly regulated, the content varying with the time of day. While the morning ceremony comprises fruits and milk, rice,dhhZ (a lentil soup),chapatis (a type of thin, flat wheat bread), vegetables and sweet rice, the late afternoon and evening ceremonies consist of vegetables, milk, halvah (a sweet dish made from cereal grains), and various sweetmeats.

Utensils are not used for eating, bar cups and plates. Since prasadam is being eaten, partaking of such a meal is considered to be a spiritually purifying activity, and so should be conducted with minimal conversation, this being restricted to talk about Krishna.

Every Sunday afternoon, the public are invited to a free temple feast, the aim being to proselytize. The cooking of the food in the kitchen is considered to be a devotional act, and hence is conducted according to rigid specifications For example, only fresh foods may be used and clean clothing must be worn for each cooking session. The cooks are not supposed to taste the food until it has first been offered to Krishna, and after the food has been prepared the kitchen is thoroughly cleaned. While preparing food, one should think solely of Krishna. While prasadam is prepared mainly by the male devotees, it is the duty of the female devotees to prepare garlands of flowers which are used for the various religious ceremonies that are performed.

The major daily ceremonies (aratrika) are conducted in the temple and follow similar patterns. Each is initiated by a pujari(a devotee who officiates in the aratrika ceremonies) who is responsible for offering the sacred obeisances to the deities. He recites various set prayers while tinkling a small bell, and having performed the prescribed rite, the other devotees are allowed to enter the temple room in which the shrine is kept, each prostrating himself before the deities while simultaneously reciting set prayers. The prepared food is then brought in and placed before the deities, whereupon the communal ceremony begins.

1This consists of singing various hymns in Sanskrit to the accompaniment of karatalas (small hand cymbals) and mrdanga (a traditional drum, the body of which is made of clay). During the course of the ceremony, various offerings are made to the deities; incense, to please the senses of the deities; burning camphor and ghee (melted purified butter) as purificatory agents; water, for the deities to cleanse their hands after consuming prasadam flowers, to please their senses; and, finally, the deities are fanned with horse hair and peacock-feather fans. The end of the ceremony is indicated by three blows on a conch shell, followed shortly after by one of the devotees responding at various points in the oration.

Once or twice during the course of each week, the devotees go into the centre of Johannesburg to distribute literature describing their movement as well as to perform samkirtana (public chanting of various hymns and the uhamantru) a venerable rite inaugurated by Chaitanya in A.D. l509 (Kellom, l973, p. l3), ISKCUN maintains the following beliefs: l. God exists in everything and is everything; 2. Man's true eternal self contains an element of God (Krishnah 3. Individuals are re incarnated in bodies that will facilitate the realization of their desires. Hence, if 0ne's desires are spiritual, one may receive a spiritual body, while if one desires indiscriminate sexual gratification, then one may be incarnated into an animal body; 4. The fundamental cause of evil is ignorance about one's true spiritual nature.

Amongst other things, the movement disfavours: l. Material success through competitive lab?ur; 2. An education that instills a need for competitive achievement;

3. Accumulation of possessions for sensory delights; 4. Authority supportive of the status quo; 5. Any war regarded to have a selfish economic basis.

(After Judah, l974a, pp. l6 and l07) In summary, the devotees are taught to be charitable, clean, benevolent, self controlled and completely devoted to Krishna. One is taught that material desires result in suffering and that material pleasure is temporary, while service to Krishna is enjoyable and contributes towards one's spiritual growth, the ultimate goal being to discover one's true spiritual identity which facilitates one's eventual return to Godhead and thereby the allevia tion of worldly suffering and misery. One is taught that spiritual education is an ongoing process, and that one's previous education is of no spiritual benefit, the only requirement being sincerity and dedication to the service of Krishna. Consequently, the devotees are not interested in listening to others' viewpoints and are dogmatic about their belief, taking a literalistic view of the Vedic scriptures.

C. The Maharaj Ji Premies The Divya Sandesh Parishad Mission, more commonly known as the Divine Light Mission (DLM), was registered as a non-profit organization in 1960, its founder being Param Sant Satgurudev Sri Hans Ji Maharaj.

Sri Hans Ji Maharaj, believed to be a descendant from the lineage of Lord Rama (an avataitg i.e. an incarnation of God), had a charismatic personality and from childhood was said to be spiritually inclined. In his early teens, he accepted updesh (initiation) from a gasvami (one who has complete self control), Dada Guru, and began disseminating spiritual knowledge in and around Delhi (approximately l930) (Sri Hans Ji Maharaj, l970).

From the beginning, Sri Hans Ji Maharaj's approach was non-conformist, since he asserted that meditation was something that could be performed continually and did not require renunciation of the world, nor did it necessitate visits to a temple. He instructed the premies (his followers meaning 'lovers of truth') in spiritual matters in a down to earth fashion rather than burdening them with intellectual philosophies. He became renowned for his use of parables and anecdotes related directly to the premies' immediate situation, rather than referring to parables making use of traditional content, and he taught that theory bereft of action was futile. Furthermore, he was opposed to all outward show of religiosity displayed by many sadhus (one who is on a path of spiritual enlightenment (sadhanna) may be anyone from a brahmachari through to a sannyasi). Telling of prayer beads, penances, fasting and the like were anathema to him, as was distinction between various castes and dis crimination based on sex. Sri Hans Ji Maharaj eulogized spirituality and criticized institutionalized religions. For him, religion had to be lived

and experienced.

"Religion does not mean to worship deities, to read scriptures, to take dips in the Holy Ganges or to recite mantras. It is unshakable faith in truth and a ceaseless quest to realize it in the innermost part of our nature." (Sri Hans Ji Maharaj, l97O, p. x) By l950 he had collected such a large gathering of disciples, that, whereas previously they had m?y met for satsang (holy discourse) in his presence, they now began meeting in his absence, giving satsang themselves or inviting his mahatmas (sages considered to be spiritually enlightened usually sannyasis) to deliver satsang.

During this time, pamphlets were written, handbills distributed and other literature given to people informing them of Sri Hans Ji Maharaj and his exposition of the Vedas and other scriptures. Generally, the premies comprised the lower middle class and Sri Hans Ji Maharaj glorified the "innocence and humility" of the poor. He maintained that, while the world is for the wealthy, God is for the poor; poverty can be a blessing in disguise, since it helps prevent one from becoming ensnared in the trappings of materialism. While Sri Hans Ji Maharaj was an inveterate opponent of materialism pursued as an end, he was nevertheless keenly aware of the reality of abject poverty and avidly supported the securing of material goods for the upraising of the poor, but he felt their lives could only be truly enriched once they had become spiritually conscious.

Some of the major objectives of the DLM are: l. To achieve a balance between material prosperity and the pursuit of spiritual goals.

2. To achieve a unity and oneness of mankind by instructing them

in the technique of experiencing and hence utilizing the universal principle of all life (the Word). It is believed that all religions are one, but that, through ignorance, different sects and creeds have arisen.

"All wise men and seers of truth agree, on the fundamental unity and oneness of spiritual reality, it is only the unenlightened who disagree and pro pound different theories about religion. The mess that has been made of religion is more because of the educated scholars who merely recite the scrip tures like parrots. They may make wonderful expos itions and arguments but have no direct experience of the truth." (Sri Hans Ji Maharaj, l970, p. 27) (itallics mine) 3. It is felt that the seeds of war exist within man and hence peace will only be achieved once man realizes and experiences his true self, thereby overcoming ignorance of the self the root cause of all evils and unrest.

4. It aims at educating the poor, no matter how rudimentary that education may be.

5. DLM also aims at relieving distress caused by ill health, natural calamities and so forth, and so is supportive of medical science.

It is felt that, although the spirit is separate and distinct from the body, it nevertheless has to function via the body, and so bodily health is imperative.

when Sri Hans Ji Maharaj died in l966, the leadership of the mission passed to his youngest son, Sri Sant Guru Maharaj Ji, who at the time was a mere eight years old. An important feature of the DLM is that its members believe that Guru Maharaj Ji is Christ returned, the Messiah of the new age ~ the Aquarian age. Consequently, the teachings of Christ, Krishna, Buddha and

other religions figures have been superseded by those of Guru Maharaj Ji.

Ioemies accept His interpretation of various scriptures, since it is main tained that He is the Perfect Master of this age, while Christ, Krishna and Buddha were Perfect Masters of ages past. By the time He was ll, many westerners had, during their travels through India, heard of the bOy guru, and, in 1969, Maharaj Ji sent His first missionary to London and the first branches of the mission opened in the west. In November 1970, Guru Maharaj Ji spoke those now renowned words, " I declare that I will establish peace in this world." within six months, He had left India, setting out on an international tour, and He visited South Africa in 1972 and again in l976.

The premies in Johannesburg (where the present study was conducted) are neinly white youth between the ages of l7 and 26, most of whom have, at one stage or another, seen Guru Maharaj Ji in person.

In order to understand the movement adequately, it is necessary that the nature of the mission's cosmology first be explicated before the form of the devotion is described.

DLM has, especially since its inception in the West, become increasingly "techno-spiritual" in its belief. It teaches that the purest form of energy is manifested as a sine wave and that, since everything that is exists funda mentally as a multiple sine wave, inner peace and eternal life must be a function of harmony or consonance between cosmic sine waves and inner sine waves or consciousness. Disharmony occurs because the mind, instead of flowing with the present, attempts to remain in the past or to travel to the future. To be present centred is to be self realized or, better still, God realized, since God exists in the reality of the here and now (Cameron, l973, pp. 56 ff.).

To have Knowledge'is to see divine light, to taste nectar, to hear music and to feel (experience) the Holy word. This is all attained through meditation.

The movement believes that the efficacy of 'Knowledge' derives from the fact that the pineal gland (believed to be the major endocrinal regulator) is activated by the experience of inner light or the life force. Consequently, "... the entire bodily system begins to undergo a gentle set of hormonal changes which re direct our desires, per ceptions and behaviour, into the most natural and flowing directions." (Horton, 1973, p. 45) A second way for us to experience this energy within us is to "taste the nectar". It is believed that a specific technique facilitates excessive secretion of the pineal hormone (which apparently is very sweet to taste) which feeds back onto the endocrinal system, so reinforcing pineal gland activity. The third aspect of 'Knowledge' is that of "celestial music" which is believed to be the sound of this energy which is fundamental to all matter. Finally, the "Holy word" is considered to be the experience of the vibrations of this fundamental energy force within the very cells of our body.

The mission's cosmology having been described, it is now necessary that the form of devotion be outlined.

Guru Maharaj Ji has prescribed that mission members should perform service, attend satsamg and meditate. Service entails various forms of charity work, usually carried out by the premies over the weekends, and occassionally during the week, by those who are self employed. Satsang a traditional activity is held every night of the week and lasts for approximately two hours. The premies as well as the aspirants (who have to attend satsang as well as an aspirant programme for three to six months before being

eligible for updesh or initiation) arrive casually dressed, and, sitting on cushions, proceed to meditate until satsang is officially opened for the evening by an elected premie. Various premies take turns giving satsang to fellow group menbers, the content varying tremendously but the theme remaining constant; how one's approach to life and all aspects thereof have changed through 'Knowledge' and how one could not imagine life without Maharaj Ji. Satsamg closes with a five minute meditation.

The third prescription is that premies should meditate whenever they have the opportunity but not to the detriment of all else.

Meditation, apart from satsamg, appears to consume a large proportion of the premies' time, especially of those who are self employed or supported by the mission. In fact, many of these premies mayspend up to six hours of each day in meditation, so that for these individuals following Guru Maharaj Ji precludes holding down a full-time job. It is important to note that Maharaj Ji stresses that it is not necessary to attempt to change one's life style immediately after receiving 'Knowledge', but that, just through meditation, one will increasingly begin to understand one's own life and how best to live it.

A significant number of premies live communally and support themselves by engaging in various crafts, such as macramé, leather wear, fine art and carpentry, while most of the remaining premies hold down full time jobs.

many of them supporting families. A small number of premies take up full time employment for the DLM and live in the ashram (temple) following a fairly regulated though not necessarily strict life style. Ashram premies tend to practise chastity, vegetarianism, and abstinence from cigarettes, alcohol and non prescribed drugs.

Guru Maharaj Ji has given the premies agya (commandments), maintaining that these are simple guidelines for living which will make one's life "... one-pointed, aimed at Truth and maximising {one's} experience of love and happiness." (Guru Maharaj Ji, 1974, p. l4) Maharaj Ji's agya is l. Do not put off until tomorrow what you can do today; 2. Constantly meditate and remember Holy Name; 3. Leave no room for doubt in your mind; 4. Always have faith in God; 5. Never delay in attending satsamg.

In sunmary, the DLM is a non-conformist religious movement which offers its members a life free from unnecessary concerns provided that they adhere to its principles. The movement makes use of analogies, the content of which is technological, to point to the path of spiritual enlightenment. In addition, the movement extols a scientific cosmology, as shown by its highly advanced and abstract conceptualization of reality.

DLM is distinguished from other religious organizations in that, inter alia, the members believe that Guru Maharaj Ji is the Messiah of the Aquarian age.

The ethos of the DLM is perhaps best summed up in the following excerpt from a devotional song, sung to Guru Maharaj Ji.

"Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity Never bring you knowledge of the soul will never reveal your soul.

Without the grace of Satguru.

without the Knowledge of Satguru.

Rites and rituals won't reach the goal Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev (from arti Guru Maharaj Ji, l974, p. 23)

D. The Catholic Priests The sample of Catholic Priests in the present study are all members of St. John Vianney's (A.D. l786 l859) Seminary and are aged between l9 and 29, the average age being 22.7 years.

Up until l948, only religious priests (those specialising for monastic duties) were trained locally at St. Joseph's near Pietermaritzburg. During that year, the idea was first conceived in Queenstown of training secular or diocesan priests in South Africa, this idea materializing with the completion of St. John Vianney's Seminary in Pretoria in l95l. Due to rapidly increasing numbers of students wishing to train for the priesthood, the seminary originally built to house 40 students - was massively rebuilt (circa l966) so as to accommodate l00 students. The number of students continued to increase until December l967 when 27 left the formation programme. There after the student numbers began to decline steadily, the lowest figure being in 1972 when there were only 2l students in the seminary.

The formation programme is fairly structured since, although it varies slightly from day to day, the daily routine follows a set pattern. Rising at 6.00 am., the priests recite the Office ( a public prayer said at fixed times) in common, meditate, and attend Mass, whereafter breakfast is eaten at 7.45 am. The rest of the morning is occupied by lectures, the afternoon being left free for private study and recreation. At 5.45 pm., meditation is held, and the evening office takes place at 6.30 pm.

The seminary residents are free to do as they please within limits and may venture outside the seminary as long as they inform the Rector of their intended whereabouts. The seminary has few rules, the aim being to inculcate a sense of responsibility into its members. The only rules explicitly exis ting are that, firstly, the seminary is a place of study and so one should

guard against avoiding study commitments, and that, secondly, one must live a life of community and strive to work harmoniously with one's fellow priests.

The formation programme lasts for seven years, the first unit comprising three years of philosophy, while the second unit consists of four years theology. During the philosophy unit, classical, scholastic and medieval, and contemporary philosophies are studied, while ethics, moral theology, theology, liturgy, and catechetics are studied as part of the theology unit.

In addition to this, the student priests in order to gain practical experience give religious instruction to pupils attending the surrounding schools.

During the first three years of their formation, most priests read for a bachelor's degree (through UNISA) in disciplines such as anthropology, psychology and sociology. Only rarely are science courses taken. The seminary feels that reading for a university degree is meritorious since, firstly, the priests will hopefully become relatively broad and open minded, and,secondly, the priest may feel more independent and so will not take his vows of religious life feeling that there is no alternative but to serve the Church. At the end of his sixth year in the seminary (third year of theology), the student priest is usually ordained a deacon, and a year later he is ordained a priest. One usually then enters a parish of the diocese from which one originally came and, after several years of practical experience, one is eligible to specialize further by going to Rome (A. Borello - personal communi cation, July, 1976).

Having outlined the structure of the life style of a seminarian, it is felt that a brief exposition of the Catholic doctrine is called for.

It is believed that, although the worship of God is a duty, man is nevertheless free to choose his own form of religion (Greenwood, l956, pp. l9 29). However, God intervened in the history of mankind and revealed the manner in which He

wished to be served, this manner being expounded by the Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church has historically viewed itself as the only true Church (O'Dea, l968), tracing its inception back to St. Peter along a line of unbroken apostolic succession.

"And I tell thee that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will built my Church...." (Matthew l6: l8) The head of the Roman Catholic Church is the Bishop of Rome (Pope) who is believed to be God's representative on earth. The Pope as a private person is as fallible as anyone else save when acting ex cathedra (in his official capacity as head of the Church) when his pronouncements, made under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, are infallible. Thus, the Catholic finds the substance of his belief from the living teaching authority, comprising the Pope and the bishops of the time. Hence the Catholic is freed from the necessity of personal investigation into matters of doctrine.

It is taught that the Bible contains the revealed truth set down in writing and that tradition is the infallible explication of the whole revealed truth of the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, passed on in succession from generation to generation of the faithful. The Roman Catholic Church ultimately appeals to its own tradition rather than to the Bible to validate many of its doctrines and dogma (McKenzie, l969).

Accepting that the Church maintains that it infallibiy explains divine revelation, it is only left to ask what the teachings of the Catholic Church actually are.

The Church teaches that there is one God whose being is realized in three persons the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (Spirit), and that Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, was incarnated and by His death

at Calvary atoned for the sins of Adam and his descendants. This benefit (as well as other benefits of being redeemed or saved) of God, given without any merit on our part, is termed grace, of which there are two types: sanctity ing grace and actual grace. Sanctifying grace is said to be a divine and permanent gift of God, enabling mankind to participate in divine life, while actual grace is divine assistance by which we may be enlightened and strength ened, so helping us to avoid sin and overcome temptation. In addition to this aid of grace, each person is assisted in the furtherance of his spiritual life by a guradian angel (Greenwood, 1956, p. l73).

It is further believed that we are not saved by faith alone, but that the future happiness of Heaven will be in proportion to the good works performed here on earth.

The Church teaches that an existential bond exists between the living and the dead members of the Church and that this communion has Christ as its head.

The Communion of Saints comprises three distinct groups: the Militant (here on earth); the Suffering (in Purgatory), and the Church Triumphant (in Heaven), there being continual prayer to and for each other.

The Church holds that Mary became the mother of Christ and remained a virgin before, as well as after the birth of Christ, and that from her conception she was inmaculate, i.e. safeguarded from original sin (Greenwood, l956, p. 235) Upon her death she was assumed into Heaven, and it is generally accepted that all graces come to man through Mary.

The Church teaches that Christ instituted certain ceremonies which represent the reception of His grace. For example, baptism is an overt cleansing by water which not only represents but actually inscribes a cleansing of sin.

The validity of a sacrament is contingent upon the fulfilment of certain conditions and, these being met, grace is always given unless (there are

exceptions) one receives the sacrament in a state of mortal sin, which itself constitutes the mortal sin of sacrilege. There are seven sacraments, each bringing actual grace and so promoting the birth, growth, and mainten ance of one's spiritual life. The sacraments of baptism and confession (also extreme unction in the case of unconscious persons) are able also to convey sanctifying grace. The sacraments are held to be: l. Baptism 2. Confirmation (supplementary to baptism) . 3. Penance (comprising a sincere regret for and confession of the sins one is aware of comitting since last receiving the sacrament of penance.) 4. Holy Eucharist (Christ makes Himself present under the appearances of bread and wine. It is cogent to note that the Catholic Church teaches that the essence of the bread and the wine becomes the essence of Christ, i.e. transubstantiatian should not be accepted as symbolic but rather as literal. The rite that was developed around the Holy Eucharist is termed Holy Mass, and the reception of Christ's Blood and Body is termed Holy Communion.) ' 5. Priesthood (of which there are different orders, each taking the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.) 6. Matrimony 7. Extreme Unction (anointment with oil when close to death).

According to Catholic doctrine, sin is primarily an overt and covert personal act (bar original sin, i.e. the sinful condition of man's being as a consequence of Adam's succumbing to temptation) by which one deliberately and consciously transgresses God's law. Personal sin may be mortal or venial, the former being a serious breaking of God's law while the latter is but a minor trans gression.

It is believed that the virtues of faith, hope and charity enable man to focus his understanding and will directly upon God.

Immediately after death, God judges each person, who is then placed for all eternity where his condition at the time of death has placed him.

It is taught that those who die in a state of mortal sin will forever remain in a state of torment separated from God. This punishment occurs in Hell. If the penalties of sin have not been fully expropriated then the soul is purified in Purgatory, so being made eligible for Heaven.

Finally, if the soul is already purified, it goes directly to Heaven.

At the end of time the complete man that is, both body and soul will participate in a final and eternal bliss or condemnation. This will occur when the earth is destroyed by fire and mankind ceases to exist on this earth. Thus, after resurrection and the last judgement, the Church will begin a new life under the head of Jesus Christ.

The major precepts of the Catholic Church are: l. To keep Sundays and other devotional days holy by attending Mass and refraining from unnecessary work; 2. To adhere to the days of fasting and abstinence appointed by the Chruch; 3. To attend confession at least once a year; 4. To receive Holy Communion at least once a year and that at Easter; 5. To contribute to the support of Church pastors; 6. Not to marry within certain degrees of consanguinity, nor to solemnize marriage at the forbidden seasons.

(After Greenwood, 1956, p. 502)

CHAPTER THREE PSYCHOLOGY CONCEIVED AS A HUMAN SCIENCE

Healthy thinking is the greatest accomplishment.

Wisdom consists of speaking the truth and acting in accordance with nature listening to her.

Heraclitus "A phenomenological psychology worthy of its name has to face up to a very special kind of challenge and it is this: the challenge of being able to offer a constructive alterna tive in terms of praxis to the psychology we now have." Giorgi (l970b)continues that the problem to date has been ... that even those who understand the phenomenological approach have not been able to translate it into praxis in a systematic and sustained way." (p. 77) This is the task of the present chapter.

Phenomenology is a method; more properly it is an attitude but not that of a technician with his bag of tools and methods ready to repair a poorly functioning machine. Rather it is one of wonder and of respect as one attempts to dialogue with the world to get the world to disclose itself to one in all its manifestiness and complexity.

The phenomenological psychologist is identified not by the subject matter with which he deals, but by the way in which he attempts to understand and describe his environment (Lauer, 1965; Merleau Ponty,l969; Munro, l975; Natanson, l966; Needleman, l975). He is obsessed by the concrete, his primary aim being to observe, to comprehend, and then to render explicit what was initially seen vaguely in the first comprehension (Farber, I943, HUSSEP1; Plv?evi?» 1979; Spiegelberg, l972; Strasser, l967; Van den Berg, 1972; Van Kaam, l958). Furthermore, he is wary of theoretical observations and accepted opinions lest, prejudging that which has yet to be fully known, 52

he fails to be faithful to the phenomena as they appear (Farber,l943; Misiak and Sexton, l966, Shapiro and Alexander, l975).

The problem with naturalistic psychology and its methodology is that it carries with it a set of major philosophical presuppositions which tend to impoverish any inquiry into experiential neaning structures (de waelhens, l967; Kruger, l975; Pivcevic, l970). Many humanistically orientated scientists (Farber,l943; Natanson, l966; Schutz, 1967; Strasser, l963) argue that the only way out of this dilenma is to adopt a procedure which strives to investigate radically such lived structures directly, apart from prior scientific and philosophical commitments.

"This is the basic principle of all phenomenology: the investigator remains true to the facts as they are happen ing." (Van den Berg, l972, p. 64) In other words, the phenomenological psychologist can no longer insist prior to beginning his research that his final description and understanding conform to a particular theory, nor that they comply with the requirements laid down by other disciplines, nor that they support the commonly accepted conceptions of man's niche in the universe (Kullman and Taylor, l966; Lauer, l965; Lawrence and O'Connor, 1967; Moustgaard, l975; Needleman, l975). Strasser (1963) points out that "The student of man as man has to be resigned to an immediate consequence of this reference to itself of human science - namely, the fact that a human science is never finished. This incompleteness is a result of its dialectical nature." (p. 299) Furthermore, phenomenological explication involves a risk, since it requires amt its descriptions be judged in terms of how the data present themselves to us, rather than in the relative safety of pre established theories and 53

methodological principles (Bettis, l969;Farber,l943; Merleau Ponty, l962).

One of the major advantages, however, of grounding the explication in experience is that the researcher does not need a priori and non evident presuppositions that in themselves require explanation (Pivcevic, l970).

This certainly does not mean that the phenomenological psychologist has no presuppositions about what he has set about to understand (Natanson, l966).

Clearly, anyone setting out to investigate any phenomenon systematically and rigorously is, from the beginning, guided by what he already understands about the phenomenon (Merleau Ponty, l962; Shapiro and Alexander, l975).

Since the phenomenological psychologist acknowledges that his research and the results obtained are to a certain degree guided or determined by his approach, he raises the issue of objectivity and grasps the fact that the results of research are inextricably bound to the perspective of the method employed (Brandt and Brandt, l974; Kracklauer, 1972; Lauer, 1965; Lawrence and O'Connor, l967; Merleau Ponty, l962; Needleman, 1975).

To cite Giorgi (l970a), "All facts are selected ... by the activity of our con sciousness, and hence they are always interpreted facts." (p. 135) "... the fact of perspectivity thus rules out ... the possibility of an absolute stance and this applies to a phenomenological perspective as well." (p. l62) Thus one of the ways in which phenomenology has enriched psychological praxis is that it has taught psychologists to begin by describing the phenomena as they are, before establishing theories and hypotheses (Farber,l943; Strasser, l967; Spiegelberg, l972), and thereby to place above all else a 'respect for the phenomena' (Husserl).

The question as to whether phenomenologically inspired research being as time consuming as it is achieves anything different from what a traditional psychometric approach could achieve, must be answered in the affirmative.

Firstly, a questionnaire expressly concerned with the meaning of becoming and being a member of a small and structured religious group has yet to be developed, and, secondly, even if such a questionnaire were to be generated, it would then force the subject into a particular mode. That is, the structure of such an experience explicitly or even implicitly conveyed by the question naire may not be true to the particular lived meaning structures of the respon dents, and since there would be no formal possibility of the respondents being allowed to expand upon the pre given categories and structure, the data derived from such a questionnaire may not reflect faithfully the phenomenon being investigated. One of the problems of giving method a privileged position is that it then determines the nature of the subject matter that can be "scientifically" researched. Much rather the privileged position should go to the phenomenon itself, and the method should thereafter emerge as a consequence of a dialogue with the phenomenon. Another objection to the traditional approach in researching a particular area of concern is that such a questionnaire could only be developed after the researcher had explicitly delineated the structure and meaning of - in this case becoming and being a member of a small and structured religious group. It is important to realize that the most rigorous criterion for assessing the efficacy of a test is its validity, i.e. the extent to which it measures or describes what it purports to measure or describe. Yet, how does the scientist know that what the questionnaire is measuring or describing is, in fact, the original purported meaning structure, unless he always already knew that structure by virtue of his own being in the world? That is to say, the scientist bases the questionnarie on his own Einstellung and then verifies this by using the traditional techniques for obtaining the degree of reliability and validity of a questionnaire. This,

however, indicates to the scientist only the extent to which the question naire measures or describes consistently and accurately the original structures. It does not signify that this structure is really - in this case the meaning structure of becoming and being a member of a particular religious group. Hence, if this very first phase of explicitating the above meaning structures is faulty, then the following elaborate procedure is in vain. For this reason, phenomenology must be and always is (although in many instances onlyinmlicitl? propaedeutic to any form of scientific research (Giorgi, l975a; Graumann, l970; Lawrence and O'Connor, l967; Merleau Ponty, 1962; Schutz, l967; Van Kaam, l958). As Buytendijk (l967) most clearly indicates, "... every psychologist ... is a phenomenologist in certain phases of his work...." (p. 359) Van Kaam (l958) continues that every scientist begins his investigation from a "vague awareness" of the data at hand and, despite the strict control in the later phases of his research, his results are founded on an insecure and uncertain base.

"This neglect of scientific rigor in the (first) decisive phase of research forms an appealing contrast to the following scientific build up by means of deductive and inductive procedures. There, many scientists will use a faultless scientific design that is nevertheless unable to correct the inexact, popular or introspective notion at the base of his research." (pp. l3,l4) A major difficulty is in deciding what phenomena are relevant and proper for a psychology conceived as a human science (wild, 1967).

"For it makes a difference whether the psychologist proceeds according to the schema of a 'rat in a maze' or according to the fundamental thought of encounter.

It is not irrelevant whether the sociologist, in inter viewing someone, thinks that by means of sounds he has to provoke reaction from a strange organism or believes that he should have a conversation which is meaningful both for him and for the interviewed person." (Strasser, 1963, p. 3ll) The crucial difference between the above two schools of thought is their approach, i.e. the basic philosophical underpinnings according to which they view the world. Thus, if it is believed, for example, that experience is an epiphenomenon of a more concrete reality that of behaviour then the researcher may be tempted to describe a man fleeing from an angry crowd in terms of the movement (behaviour) of two points A (the man) and B (the angry crowd) through space per unit time. That is, the subject matter of his research is the spatial behaviour of the man and the crowd. In other words, the content of his research is locomotion, which one can adequately investigate within a natural science paradigm. However, the situation of a crowd pursuing a fleeing man is essentially different from that of the wind chasing a paper. It is true that both can be studied and understood in terms of locomotion, yet the former situation is different by virtue of the intentionalities of the persons involved. To omit terms such as anger and fear because they are "subjective", is to leave out of this situation those characteristics which are uniquely human. It is certainly possible to study man from the perspective of things insofar as man can be considered to be an object in the world as well as a subject for whom the world exists (Merleau Ponty, l962), but to ask questions of a physical nature results in physical replies and so the qualitative aspects of the human subject matter are not interrogated (Needleman, 1975).

57 "Briefly expressed, he who uses methods that are essentially the same as those of physics will remain in the sphere of physics and cannot even enter the realm of human science." (Strasser, l963, p. 23) The content of research with man-as-man rather that with man as thing must be, by definition, that characteristic which is peculiar to man his exis tence as an experiential and emotional being. Thus, the human scientist will accept as evidence and hence the content of his research the man's experience of being afraid and the crowd's experience of being angry. Consequently, the method he employs to explicate the structures of these experiences will be ' that which yields most fruitfully an understanding of the situation of a man being chased by a crowd as opposed to a paper being chased by the wind.

Strasser (l963) concurring with Farber(l943) points out that it is imperative for the human scientist to avoid an approach where "... reality is pressed into a system of ideas in which the human element as such disappears { for } it follows that this system is unsuitable for the scientific purposes which he pursues. Motion, for example, can be described in a way that is equally applicable to an electron and to a human being. Such a description is useful for a man of science who is interested in "locomotion" but it is mean ingless with respect to a man fleeing from a pursuing crowd." (p. l6l) It is perhaps instructive at this point to see what Strasser has to say about the meaning of the term "method".

"According to the original meaning of the Greek term, "method" means the road to be taken if one wants to reach the desired goal. In other words, the purpose determines which road should be taken. If, therefore, the aim pursued by human sciences differs from that of physical sciences, different methods have to be used in them." (p. 22) 58 The upshot of what has been said is that any explicit method carries with it an approach, either explicitly or implicitly, and defines the content of research by virtue of the nature of the questions it poses. The essential point to be noted here is that it is not possible to separate either the method or the content from the approach. The psychophysical parallelist, for example, believing that experience,emotions and cognitions are paralleled by brain wave patterns (his approach) will not develop methods to study these phenomena per se (the content) since he sees no need. They are as far as he is concerned - only epiphenomena of various brain states and so are most adequately studied by investigating these brain states (the content) which can be described quantitatively.

The human scientist, however, believing that experience is an irreducible phenomenon (Beshai, 1971; Strasser, 1967; inter alia) will set out to study experience as it appears.

It is frequently maintained (Blasius, l976; Kruger, l977; Pivcevic, l970; Strasser, l963) that, natural science argues that in order for research to be rigorous, it must make use of numerical and mathematical symbols. These very same natural scientists assert that an observation is only scientific (rigorous) when it can be expressed quantitatively. Failure to quantify the data is synonomous with failure to be rigorous, This may certainly be true in the natural sciences where, for example, it is meaningful to ask with what velocity a stone falls through space. However, if the subject of our inquiry is not a falling stone (nor man as thing), but rather a falling man, then is it not equally meaningful, if not more so, to ask about the experien tial aspects of falling? As Strasser (1963) points out, "... any methodic principle is merely an attempt to comprehend the inexhaustible wealth of forms in which human life manifests itself." (p. l33) 59 Since it would then seem possible to be rigorous without quantifying the data providing the data is examined in a manner that is relevant to the phenomenon under investigation (Spiegelberg, l972) we would, in the case above, accept as legitimate subject matter for scientific research the experience (not speed) of falling. The important point is that there are different ways (methods) of being rigorous (Farber, l943; Munro, 1975) depending upon the content which is inseparable from the approach of our investigation. Being rigorous or "objective" is actually an "... intellectual attitude of someone who pursues his study in an unprejudiced fashion and allows his judge ments to be determined by that which really presents itself." (Strasser, 1963, p. 59) It is certainly legitimate to quantify the data if we are looking at Homo naturn (Binswanger, l975) man as thing while man-as an-intentional being requires that qualitative data be accepted as evidence for our investigation (Romanyshyn, l975). It is felt by many researchers (Johnson and Solso, l97l) that experiential meaning structures are not valid subject matter for a rigorous discipline because they are considered to be "subjective" and there fore uncontrollable, arbitrary, and without any scientific meaning. However, even within the natural sciences which pride themselves in being rigorous disciplines - data is ultimately arrived at via the investigator's experience (de waelhens, 1967; Shapiro and Alexander, l975). For example, the researcher observes readings on a calibrated measuring instrument (which incidentally was calibrated without the exclusion of experience), designs an experimental paradigm, selects equipment for measuring certain aspects of the phenomenon because he feels them to be important, and so forth. In the words of Merleau Ponty (l962),

60 "... all my knowledge of the world, even my scientific knowledge, is gained from my own particular point of view, or from some experience of the world without which the synbols of science would be meaningless. The whole universe of science is built upon the world as directly experienced...." (p. vm) Although it is not possible to separate the experimental situation from the scientist's experience, the entire situation is nevertheless considered to be rigorous. Why? Because his experience of the situation can be verified by a body of like minded scientists. In other words, his investigation is considered rigorous because his experience of the subject being investigated agrees with that of other scientists. That is, they agree on sharing the same experience there is consensus or intersubjective validation (Moust gaard, T975).

when conducting research in psychology conceived as a human science, it is imperative to realize that the design is not centred around a subject object relationship but rather around a subject subject relationship (Barrell and Barrell, T975; Brandt, l970; Brandt and Brandt, 1974; Giorgi, T974; Kvale, l973

L'Ecuyer, l975; Lyons, l970; Strasser, l963, pp. 143 ff.). The relationship of a nuclear physicist to his subject matter is not of the same nature as that of a psychologist to his subject matter man-as man, as a person. That is, the "object" of research is an experiential emotional being who is present to the research situation. As such, he brings with him his past and intended future; human temporality being experiential, each moment tends towards a future not being simply an extended present. Each future intending moment is one filled with "... possibilities, anticipations, anxieties, and questions which have as their natural form of reference his behaviour in the present moment of the experiment." (Romanyshyn, l97l, p. l0l)

Thus, the subject's present behaviour that is, behaviour occurring within the quantitative boundaries of the experimental situation intends some future and incorporates various aspects of his present past "... even if only vaguely sensed by the subject and ignored by the experimenter." (Romanyshyn, l97l, p. lO2) Furthermore, the paradigm of an independent observer is no longer viable, it being important to recognize that all experimental situations comprise a convergence of two sets of intentions, those of the researcher as manifested in the research design and those of the subjects as they behave in and experience that particular experimental situation (Kruger, 1975). In addition, as Strasser (1963) points out, extra-experimental meaning is always brought into the research of man as man, since "... the one who makes the encounter possible, who prepares and organizes it, is man as pursuing science, and the one who allows himself to be encountered, either directly or by way of documents, cultural products, statistics and test results, is simply man. For this reason the situation will always have a different meaning for the former than for the latter. The difference is an essential aspect of the re search situation." (pp. l47 l48) In any form of research, the human element is present even in the most mechan ized, automated designs, without mention of the interpretation and discussion of results. Furthermore, it must be remembered that "objective" knowledge is a derived and secondary way of knowing the world, which is dependent upon the way in which the world appears to us in a primary and pre-objective, pre reflective way (La Pointe, l972; Romanyshyn, l973). Hence, any scientific (rigorous) investigation entails a formalized, objective study of that which was always already known in a pre scientific, pre objective, pre articulative

manner. Ne know it by virtue of our being in the world. Thus, in order to be truly rigorous in the investigation of any given phenomenon, the researcher should specify the way in which he is present to that which he is studying (Van Kaam, 1958). This making explicit of the investigator's approach is essential since, "At every given moment of our lives we carry with us, we are, a certain perspective insurmountable in the instant where it appears - from which basis everything begins to present itself to us. It is true that I can change this perspective but that will be substituting this for an other .... it is not possible to escape the necessity of a perspective." (de waelhens, 1967, pp. 159 160) Marcel (1948), Kluback and weinbaum (1957), and Needleman (1975) inter alia concur with the above assertion, pointing out that it would be a profound illusion to suppose that one can undertake an inquiry and yet maintain an attitude of uninvolvement one is involved by virtue of being-in the world which one is investigating.

The knowledge derived from such a phenomenological explication should be intersubjectively valid providing the judges adopt the same perspective (approach) as the initial investigator. The approach of a phenomenological investigator is characterized by the attitude of openness for whatever is significant for the adequate understanding of a phenomenon (wild, 1967).

Hence, the student of phenomenological research should not pre judge any particular phenomenon nor see it through any given perspective merely because of prior knowledge about the phenomenon. His method would involve the processes of intuition, reflection and description (Giorgi, l970a,b; Munro, 1975; Spiegelberg, 1972 inter alia). In other words, the researcher should firstly concentrate on what is actually given, and only thereafter should he put specific questions to the phenomenon. The essential point of

the above is that, only after the researcher has concerned himself with the phenomenon as directly experienced, should he systematically manipulate variables to ascertain whether his ideas about the phenomenon before him are correct. Concurring with the above mode of research Van Kaam (l969a) defines the mode of existence of the phenomenological psychologist as one in which he seeks a comprehensive understanding of the phenomenon "... as it manifests itself, with the least possible imposition of psychological theory or method, personal and cultural prejudice or need, and language habit." (p. 243) The operative word in phenomenological research is "describe" (Graumann, 1970 Lauer, l965; Shapi ro and Alexander, l975). It is imperative that phenomeno logical explications be carried out in a strictly descriptive mode, since phenomenological reduction eliminates everything from the field of investiga tion bar intended "things" and "objects" which must be accepted, "... as they present themselves in actual or potential experience. No reference to any reality not actually appearing and given through the act of experience under consideration must be permitted to intervene in phenomeno logical analyses." (Gurwitsch, 1966, p. 46) In other words, the researcher aims at describing as accurately as possible the phenomenon as it appears, rather than indulging in attempts to explain it within a pre given framework (Strasser, 1967). Scientific explanation has its usefulness, but it too often becomes so involved in explaining that it loses sight of the original data altogether (Merleau Ponty, l962). As Needleman (l975) so succinctly points out, "... that which is explained is reduced to that which is previously understood. To be sure, we understand

the explained phenomenon; but only insofar as it is related, reduced, trunsfbnmed into that which we have previously understaod...." (p. 39) Furthermore, explanation shifts the focus of attention from the phenomenon under investigation to the description of phenomena antecedent to the phenomenon in question the antecedent being assumed to have causal links with that which it precedes (Beshai, l97l; Giorgi, l970a,b; Lauer, 1965; Moustgaard, 1975). In other words, in such a case, the researcher is no longer concerned with what is given but rather with the why of what is before him, which is a failure to remain faithful to the data as it occurs.

To reiterate, phenomenology recognizes that the way to study the Lebenswelt is not necessarily the same way to study physical or biological realities.

As Van den Berg (1972) expresses it, "The psychologist can expect no greater results from the tools of a physicist than a painter can from the tools of a blacksmith." (p. 127) Romanyshyn (l97l) is of the same opinion, asserting that "It is the unique demands of the problem which indicate the method rather than the method which limits the problem .... when the problem changes then the method must also change, or at least its inappropriateness for the problem as it then presents itself must be recognized." (p. 107) Since the method must be relevant to the subject matter, a phenomenological viewpoint recognizes the possibility of both measurement and meaning perspectives; some phenomena such as visual thresholds are best understood by means of quant ification. while others such as the meaning structures of shame, of love and of becoming and being a member of a small and structured religious group are more fully comprehended by ascertaining what these experiences mean to the person who feels ashamed, or the person who is in love, or the person who joins and is a member of a particular social group.

CHAPTER FOUR METHODOLOGY

Ihe existence of the experimental method makes us think we have the meams of solving the problems whteh trouble us; though problems and method pass one another by.

L. Nittgenstein Introduction Methodology in psychology conceived as a human science is concerned with the rigorous description of a phenomenon while at the same time remaining faithful to its context in the Lebenswelt. The rigorous procedure of explicitation must be made publicly explicit so that the research may be replicated by another researcher if so desired. The validity and reliability of the research will not depend upon the replicability of results but rather on the reappearance of various essential themes which initially led to a greater intersubjective understanding of the phenomenon concerned (Munro, l975; Van Kaam, l969a).

The specific steps to be followed constitute specifically applicable procedures which are examples of general principles in phenomenological research. Such general principles embody procedures which allow the emergence of an essential description of the phenomenon without distorting the essential meaning of the original data. Hence, the present research methodology is rigorous.

Since a phenomenological research method is always in its infancy to begin with, it is felt necessary to present a detailed step by step exposition of how the data of the present study came to be explicitated. At the outset it is impera tive to be cognizant of the fact that the method below is not the only way to conduct research if one wishes to be a human scientist. On the contrary, it is but one method of many. It should be borne in mind that the method must be

in dialogue with the content (Beshai, 1975; Giorgi, l970a,b, l974; Kracklauer, l972; Thines, l970; Van Kaam,l969a) and that there is a danger in prematurely fixing the categories of the world and the methods used to elucidate such categories. As Kullman and Taylor (l966) point out, such a procedure "... precludes the development, discovery, and invention of new modes of 'expliciting' and predicating that which is encountered in the pre-predicative 'flux' of experience." (p. 126) Confirming what has already been said about the dialectical nature of the development of a phenomenological research methodology, Giorgi (l97la)points out that "It is phenomenologically unsound to establish a method that must be used that is prior to and independent of the phenomenon to be investigated. The problems of methodology cannot be considered in isolation, but only within the context of the phenomenon to be investigated and the problem aspect of that phenomenon." (p. ll) Hence the "... interesting thing is that phenomenological method is reflexive in nature and intent: phenomenological method is itself phenomenologically derived." (Natanson,l966, p. ll). (Farber, 1943; Lauer, l965; Merleau Ponty, l962; Myers, l967) A further cautionary note is that one difficulty in a study of the present nature is that the researcher has to operate as a double agent; as a recorder of data on the one hand and as a participant on the other. while the former aspect necessitates a distancing of oneself from the subject matter, the latter requires a being-with "what is going on".

68 A. VALIDITY OF THE PRESENT RESEARCH

The procedure outlined below is, in effect, its own'validation. Since the phenomenological psychologist, through his dialectical method, strives to understand the phenomenon as it emerges in its own context and then describes the phenomenon in a disciplined and controlled way, his method is a rigorous one. That is, intra-subjective validation is a product of a disciplined application of the phenomenological orientation to research (Munro, l975; Von Eckartsberg, l97l).

However, since even the most vigilant and exacting researcher is subject to the influence of his own meaning structures and pre reflective prejudices, the validity of the inquiry may be increased through the use of several researchers or judges performing checks of one sort or another on the protocols being explicitated. Inter subjective validation is used in the present study.

B. RELIABILITY OF THE PRESENT RESEARCH The problem of reliability is whether the same themes and meanings will re emerge from the same phenomenon if it is re questioned. Provided that the procedure outlined below is replicated, the phenomenon will show itself again to be what it is in its own context as revealed through the nature of the questioning procedure. As Strasser (1963) succinctly puts it, "Man questions the world and the world responds according to the nature of the question." (p. ll4) The explicit delineation of the questioning procedure (outlined below) makes for the reliability of the present study.

C. THE CHOICE OF A SAMPLE The type of subject who eventually would be interviewed was limited by the type of person found in the groups being studied. In addition to this limitation, other conditions also had to be met.

(a) All the subjects should come from a similar cultural milieu.

Hence only individuals belonging to the same ethnic group (Caucasian in this case) and having the same home-language (Levy, l973 inter alia) this being English should be interviewed.

' (b) The average subject should express a willingness to discuss freely and openly with others his experience associated with becoming as well as being a group member.

(c) The subjects should preferably be naive with respect to psychological theory. Their being untrained would increase the probability of their verbalizing the data of their aware ness without undue interference from implicit philosophies of various schools of psychological thought. In the words of Kullman and Taylor (T966), "In describing our 'original' experience of the world, we must not let ourselves be influenced by any empirical or philosophical theory of perception, any hypotheses con cerning its nature, causes, or physiological or other underlying processes involved." (p. ll?) (d) Subjects should have been group members fora minimum of six months, thus ensuring reasonable commitment to the movement.

Furthermore, rapport should exist between the researcher and the subjects, and it is important that the researcher create a situation in which the subject can feel relaxed, unthreatened and where he has time to spend with the interviewer.

The above conditions were easily met since only English-speaking Whites were encountered in the groups. The exception to this was the Divine Light Mission which, being a somewhat eclectic group with an Eastern over tone catered for a number of Indians. They, however, had their own centre and ashram, meeting only with the White premies for a single service once each month. The Indian premies were not interviewed.

Since for the majority, if not all of the subjects, their life-styles, interests and commitments centre around a religious belief of some sort, most were only too keen to talk to the interviewer about their experiences.

This finding concurs with that of Carroll and Jenkins (l973) who made the point that some of the religiously orientated patients whom they interviewed reported that they felt gratified that someone was seriously interested in their religious concerns and that they the subjects were pleased to be able to talk about this focus of their weltansahauung. Furthermore, few if any of the subjects had anything but a brief acquaintance with psychology as a discipline, thus meeting the third condition above. Since the subjects had been in the group for at least six months, it is fairly safe to assume that the prescientifically explicated projects were not the consequence of an "infatuation" with the movement (Salzman, 1966). Such infatuation may lead to spurious data since it may reflect only the initial exaggerated intensity of belief in, and support for, the group.

Rapport was ensured since the researcher had been acquainted with the different groups for varying periods (from one month in the case of the Catholic Priests through to four years in the case of the Jesus People) prior to the present study. Furthermore, arrangements for the interviews were made so as to accommodate each subject,with the researcher emphasizing that the subject should choose a time and place where he would feel relaxed and able to devote his full attention to the interview situation.

As the groups were small and because most members fulfilled the above requirements, the subjects used in the present study are representative of the groups from which they were taken.

Since the present research is concerned with what it means both to become a member of a small and structured religious group, as well as being a group member, any attempt to control for sex differences between the groups would confound the data. If, for example, one group is predominantly male while another is not, this then must be accepted as being one of the differences between these two groups and must be explicated as such. Any attempt to eliminate sex differences will also result in an elimination of essential differences in the final explication of the data. That is, an elimination of the sex differences (if and when they exist) would not be remaining true to the data.

Similarly, attempts to equate groups, or rather members of different groups, in terms of age or background variables would have a similar effect since the final explication may have little in common with the actual lived day to day project of being a member of a group which is substantially different from other groups in terms of its sex ratio and the background of most of its members.

All the members of the groups being studied do, however, have one feature in common. They have all joined small, structured religious groups and have been members of such groups for a period of not less than six months.

The total sample consisted of:* GROUP NUMBER SEX RATIO AGE Range 1? SD Hare Krishna Devotees 16 14M/2F 17 30 24.31 3.29 Jesus People 16 9M/7F l9 29 22.63 2.96

Maharaj Ji Premies 16 13M/3F 20 31 25.13 3.18 Catholic Priests 16 16M 19 29 22.63 2.64

* For a further breakdown of the data see appendix B.

D. NATURE OF THE INTERVIEW

At the start of the interview session, a Personal Data Form was completed by the subjects to supply biographical information (see appendix B), in the event that such data should be required at a later date. The subjects were not required to put any personal identification on the forms as it was felt that this would afford them greater ease in expressing their true feelings.

Having completed this form, casual conversation ensued during which the subjects were asked permission for the interview to be taped. The inter view proper then started. This initial phase (lasting for approximately 10 to 15 minutes) of the individual interview was to serve as a general introductory period. The aim here was not only to establish interview rapport but also to provide time for reasonable adaptation to the inter view setting and especially to the presence of the tape-recorder. It was during this phase that it was impressed upon the subjects that what they

revealed to the researcher during the interview would be held in strict confidence. Since it has been found that questionnaire completion type interviews tend to result in responses of a distant and highly reflective nature (Stevick, l97l), it was felt best to put questions to the subjects in a tape recorded interview session. Furthermore, it has been found that the spoken interview allows the subjects to be as near as possible to their lived experience (Beshai, 1975; Dublin, l972; Dufrenne, l967; Parker, l977; Romanyshyn, 1975; Stevick, l97l).

"In effect, when I speak, I am my speaking; I become one with my words. Certainly ... to speak puts me at a certain distance from that of which I speak. But between my con sciousness and my speech there is no distance at all: I am in union with the language I use." (Dufrenne, l967, p. 2l5) It is imperative that the researcher has previously considered carefully the nature of the question or questions he wishes to put to the subjects so as to be sure of anticipating a yield of fruitful data. The researcher must, however, be mindful to remain faithful to his original project no matter how great the wealth of data.

The question asked approximates that below: "would you tell me everything you can about your personal experience of becoming a{... Hare Krishna Devotee, for example) and also about your personal experience of being a {... Hare Krishna Devotee, for example)?" If subjects appeared not to understand the above question fully, it would be repeated in either similar or different words. Although the same basic question as outlined above was asked of each subject, an effort was made to avoid too strong an impression of standardization as would be conveyed by the reading of a prepared written question. The rationale for this was that

an informal asking of the research question would encourage less standardized verbalizations and lend to the enhancement of rapport and mutual dialogue in the lived interview situation. The researcher ensured that the subjects fully comprehended the question before allowing the interview to continue. It was made quite clear to the subjects that the researcher had no aim in mind other than to understand fully what it means to be a member of their particular group. Furthermore, it was pointed out that the direction the interview took depended largely upon the subjects as did the duration of the interview.

An open ended interview was conducted in an informal, non directive manner, the interviewer attempting to influence the subject as little as possible.

As Markson and Gognalons-Caillard (l97l) point out, the great advantage of a semi structured or non directive interview is its flexibility, which allows the investigator to grasp more fully the subject's perspective than would be possible in a more rigid methodological technique. They forcefully note that "Structured interviews ... are impregnated with subjectivity in the form of working ... assumptions made by the researcher and hence they are likely to yield little understanding of the experiential world of the subject ." (p. 206) Concurring with Markson at al, Kruger (l975) asserts that psychology rests upon dialogue and that it is the job of the psychologist "... to understand people by making explicit what people can communicate to him concerning their experience and behaviour." (pp. ll l2) If the researcher failed to understand a particular point made by the subject, then he would ask for clarification. The interviewer was careful, however, not to ask leading questions.

The duration of each interview was self determining; once the subject had prescientifically explicated all that he the subject felt related to his personal project (Giorgi,l97Oa,binter alia) of becoming and being a member of a small and structured religious group, the interview ended.

The interviews proper varied in duration from 20 minutes to over an hour.

Having finished the interview, the subjects were asked to complete an Informational Questionnaire which requested: "Please write down your experience of the interview which you have just had. You could, for example, state your attitude and feelings toward the interviewer and the interview situation, as well as any other feelings you have toward the situation you have just been in." This request aimed at receiving feedback concerning the subject's experience of the interview itself, from which the researcher could decide to accept or reject a given interview for use in the present study.

Let some of the subjects speak for themselves: "Enjoyed sharing the experience of how I came and was brought to hear about the experience the Knowledge this meditation that Maharaj Ji has to offer each one of us. Didn't feel in any way inhibited while talking and sharing with {the interviewer)." "Interview was very free flowing and interviewer easy to talk to." "It was nice to look back and see what I've been through and what l am now experiencing."

"Having an interview was for me a lovely experience because it made me look back and again see how beautiful the process of life has been in my life. I felt very clear aftenwards about the purpose of life which I sometimes forget." "I felt relaxed. what I said probably expressed as well as I would wish what I wanted to say." "Relaxed Open Honest though somewhat scattered. Flitting around rather than giving a concise and concerted resume of what I experience or think." 1

"I felt confident in what I was saying. Nervousness before we started, but it vanished as soon as I started talking." " The(interviewer} did inspire confidence in me, although I am a bit shy of tape recorders." "There was no breakdown in the interview which says a lot for the interviewer. It did not last longer than it should have and was very comfortable." "The interviewer was very understanding and made me feel as much at ease as possible. I felt unsure because I did not know what the interviewer was thinking about what I was saying." No protocols were rejected.

At a later stage, these taped interviews were transcribed and the scientific phase of the explicitation proceeded.

It is inevitable that many, if not all, of the descriptions by the subjects of their religious projects will be incomplete or imperfect. Lack of skill in expression, forgetfulness, poor vocabulary and the inability to express themselves clearly could all be contributing factors (Van Kaam, l958, p. 6l) These imperfect descriptions would certainly not invalidate any subject's

reported project, but may fail to reflect an essential aspect. This problem can be largely obviated by the use of more than one subject from each group.

By making use of a variety of subjects, the possibility of finding underlying constants or themes in the many and varied forms of expression the project takes is greatly increased (Munro, l975). Thus the problem of certain aspects being omitted is greatly reduced, and those aspects most important should appear most frequently, assuming and not unjustly so that those aspects which are most important are least likely to be forgotten. That is, those phenomena which are of felt and lived significance in the subject's existence will rarely fail to emerge to reveal themselves in an exploration of the subject's existence. (Van Kaam, l967). Also, a subject may concentrate on one particular area and fail to describe other aspects of his religious project This does not necessarily imply that this is all there is to his project merely that he has not explicitly described other aspects. Thus, the explicit aspects mentioned by other subjects may be implicit in his descriptive express ions. At least, they should be compatible. If not, then the researcher must make note of this in the Extended Descriptions.

E_ SCIENTIFIC PHASE OF THE EXPLICITATION Introduction This phase of the research comprises seven subphases to be dealt with below.

These subphases are based both on an understanding of phenomenological research as represented by the work (Colaizzi, 1968; Giorgi, 1970b, l97la,b, 1975; Stevick, l97l, Van Kaam, 1958 inter alia) conducted at Duquesne University as well as on a dialogue with the data itself.

The subphases should not be seen as operating independently and they generally overlap with one another.

"They form partly a set of ordered abstractions describing the complicated mental process that the phenomenological scientist experiences as a natural totality." (Van Kaam, l958, p. 28) At intermittent stages throughout the scientific explicitation, the author consulted various persons, also involved in phenomenological research, concerning doubts about the validity of a given subphase or aspect of a subphase. In addition, he also intermittently sought consensual agree ment concerning, for example, the delimitation of a Natural Meaning Unit and its reduction.

l. An intuitive holistic grasp of the data Since phenomenological research is engaged research, involving the researcher in an interpersonal situation, the researcher's mode of involvement in the scientific phase of the explicitation iscrucial. In his initial reading of the protocols the researcher brackets his own preconceptions and judgements and, to the extent that he is able, he remains faithful to the data. After achieving a holistic sense of the data, the protocols are read again (if necessary repeatedly) with a more reflective attitude in order to pre pare the researcher for the further phases in which a more particular and exacting analysis is stipulated. In addition, the repeated reading of the protocols in this early phase assists the researcher in retaining a sense of the wholeness of the data despite its dissection in the subsequent phases.

2. §pontaneous emergence of Natural Meaning Units (NMUs) The data is broken down into naturally occurring units each conveying a particular meaning which emerge spontaneously from the data. This unit, termed a Natural Meaning Unit (NMU) may be defined as

"... a statement made by S {the subject} which is self definable and self-delimiting in the expression of a single, recognisable aspect of S {the subject's) experi ence." (Cloonan, 1971, p. 117) The intention conveyed by each NMU is then expressed in a reduced form as concisely and as accurately as possible. wherever possible, the subject's own terminology and phraseology his linguistic style are adhered to in order that the data may "speak for itself". However, the shared nature of our lived world suggests that we are able to understand fellow man's meanings and as such the researcher may, where it is felt necessary, articulate the central themes (reductions of the NMUs) in words other than those used by the subjects so as to express more clearly the intended meaning (Munro, 1975) The task of this phase is an "... articulation of the central themes that characterised the respective unfolding scenes of each protocol." (Fischer, 1974, p. 414) In this manner the richness of the data is exposed for further explicitation in the phases to follow. It is essential to be cognizant that each meaning unit exists in the context of the other inter related meanings of a protocol.

This implies that, regardless of how clearly meanings are differentiated from each other conceptually through the questioning of the data, there is never theless an inseparable relatedness of all these meaning units.

3. Constituent Profile Description Having listed all the reductions of the NMUs, the researcher then proceeds to eliminate those units which are repeated, i.e. which convey an identical intention or meaning. Having done so, the next step is to eliminate any irrelevant units. To ensure rigor, only those units which are obviously

irrelevant to the question being researched are eliminated at this stage.

The remaining units are considered tentatively to be non repetitive and relevant descriptive statements concerning what it means to become and to be a member of a small and structured religious group. This is termed the First Order Profile. Thig First Order Profile is than Qonyerted into a Constituent Profile D@B¢riP¢i0", in brief, a condensed summary of the original data, containing the essence of what the subject expressed.

4. Second Order Profile The Second Order Profile results from a repetition of phases one through to three, but performed on the Constituent Profile D28GripiiGn¢ The elements emerging from this procedure are then listed and numbered.

These four subphases are repeated for every individual subject (N = l6) in each of the four groups. This repetition aims at ensuring that the raw data has been fully, but not overly, reduced. Over reduction should not occur at this stage because the development of the Constituent Profile Description enables the researcher to check systematically that this description does indeed contain all the constituents necessary to be able to identify fully the original data (see section D). 'The final elimination procedure performed on the Constituent Profile Description aims at removing any redundant constit uents. As has already been stated, this is termed the Second Order Profile.

5. Clustering ' At this stage, the researcher has four groups, each containing l6 sets of Second Order Profiles. He then proceeds to gather those descriptive state ments with similar though not identical meanings from one particular group into clusters which are termed categories. Any given Category may contain

elements from only one subject through to as many as 16 subjects. These Categories are then arranged in a hierarchical fashion for each group.

6. Extended Description Taking the first few clusters of Categories (containing thematic elements), the researcher writes an Extended Description of what these Categories tell him about the overall question being investigated. He then adds to this description the next Category in the hierarchy and so either extends the description or modifies it in the light of the new information in the add itional Category.

This procedure is repeated until further addition of Categories is rendered superfluous since the essence of the data is no longer modified by such additions.

Following this, the researcher systematically and carefully checks the remaining categories, ensuring that they are compatible with the Extended Description. Those thematic elements (contained in the Categories ) which are not compatible are described and, when possible, the researcher shows that these elements are only apparently incompatible.

7. Comparison of the group elicited meanings Having arrived at four Ewtended Descriptions of the meaning of becoming and being a member of a small and structured religious group, a comparison empha sizing the major similarities and differences is made (see chapter six).

F. RIGOR OF EXPLICITATION TESTED BY THE USE OF INTERSUBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT Since the hallmark of any scientific endeavour is that there should be consensual validation of the outcome, a panel consisting of three judges (other than the author) was used toascertain theextent to which the Emtended

Descriptionsaccurately reflect the meaning structures in the protocols of the present study. The criterion for validity is not whether another researcher (or a judge) would use exactly the same words or arrive at an identical description of the data. Rather, validity is indicated by whether such differences in wording may be intersubjectively understood to reflect an identical meaning or to indicate similar essential themes to those which emerged from the data as explicated by the original researcher. The judges used were all in possession of post graduate qualifications in psychology and were acquainted with phenomenology.

After removing all forms of possible identification from the protocols, each judge was requested to undertake, independently, the following tasks which were conducted at six week intervals: l. To read through each and every protocol (N = 64) and, having done so, to sort the protocols into four groups, placing those which they the judges feel to be similar into the same grouping. They are told that each grouping should contain l6 protocols.

2. Each judge is then given the four Extended Descriptions and is required to select those protocols which he feels are best identified by each Extended Description.

3. Finally, the judges are once again presented with the four A Ertended Descriptions, but are now presented with the protocols in their correct groupings and are required to state which Extended Description best describes which particular group of protocols.

Results and Discussion Table One: Number of Correctly Identified Protocols within Each Group * Judge One: Q <~=16> H 1~=1< 11 M 1~=16) Task 1 = 13 (al) 14 (as) 16 (94) Task 2 = 16 (94) 16 (100) 16 (94) Task 3 = c c c Judge Two: E (~=16) m <~=16> w <~=16> Task 1 = 12 (75) 15 (94) 14 (88) Task 2 = 14 (as) 16 (100) 16 (100) Task 3 = C C C Judge Three: JP (N 16) HKD (N-16) MJP (N-16) 5 Task 1 = 14 (88) 13 (81) 12 (75) Task 2 = 16 (100) 16 (94) 14 (as) Task 3 = C C C Combined (Mean) Judge Responses: JP (N=16) HKD (N=16) MJP (N=16) Task 1 = 13 (81) 14 (88) 14 (88) Task 2 = 15 (94) 16 (100) 15 (94) Task 3 = C C C gg (N=16) _I§f_ 16 (100) 6s (91) 16 (100) 62 (97) C _ E (~=16> E 12 (76) 63 (63) 12 (76) ss (91) C 65 (n=16) IE5

14 (ea) 63 (as) 16 (100) 61 (93) C _ CP (N=16) TCP 14 (as) -66 (96) 16 (94) 61 (96) C _ I 64

I 64

T 64

I 64

* JP = Jesus People HKD = Hare Krishna Devotees MJP = Maharaj Ji Premies CP = Catholic Priests TCP = Total number of correctly placed protocols T = Total number of protocols C = Correct matching of Extended Description and respective subject group The figures in parentheses are percentages.

Table One summarizes the results of the judges' performance on the three tasks outlined above.

Task one required the judges to sort the protocols according to inherent similarities and differences and, as can be seen from the combined judge responses, a total average of 55 protocols were correctly sorted, with the Jesus People being sorted on the averages with the least degree of precision Nevertheless, the figures for task one indicate that, although there are some common features among the four groups, hence incorrect placement, the groups are still sufficiently unlike to allow differentiation between the groups with a high degree of precision.

Task two required that, on the basis of an Extended Description,the judges identify the l6 protocols derived from members of the particular group described. This instruction referred to each of the four Extended Descrip tions. As can be seen from the combined judge responses, the Hare Krishna Devotees were on the average sorted with the greatest degree of precision

and, in the cases of the other groups, the degree of accuracy of sorting was mu extremely high (94%).

This would suggest that the Extended Descriptions are sufficiently explicit and rigorous to allow one to identify - with a high degree of certainty the protocols of which they implicitly consist.

A pertinent question that has to be confronted is whether or not the marked precision shown by the judges, especially on task two, is an artifact. Task one required the judges, given no information other than the protocols them selves, to sort these protocols into four groups. As indicated on Table One the differentiation was attained with relatively few errors, which suggests that the terminology and frame of reference used by each group despite the elimination of all forms of possible overt identification, for example, terms such as Jesus, Krishna, Praise the Lord, Virgin Mary and so forth - were influential in determining the high degree of precision noted in task two.

However, the crucial note is that the precision with which the groups of protocols were differentiated according to task two exceeds that of task one task two differing from task one only in that the judges used the Extended Descriptions as the basis for their sorting procedure, while in the latter task they did not. This suggests that the Extended Descriptions are valid descriptions of what it means to become as well as to be a member of one of the small and structured groups in the present investigation.

The situation can be clarified still further if the question is inverted concerning whether the Extended Descriptions add to the judges' ability to identify any given protocol and to discriminate amongst a number of protocols.

That is, it must be acknowledged that the information contained in the four Extended Descriptions did not confound the judges' ability to discriminate among various protocols - since there is no instance in which the performance on task two is poorer than that on task one ~ but rather added to the judges'

ability to separate each group.

Furthermore, it is essential to realize that one's being in-the world is only made intelligible in fact, can only be made so in and through discourse. To cite Heidegger on this point, "Words and language are not wrappings in which things are packed for the commerce of those who speak and write. It is in words and language that things first come into being and are." (cited in Steiner, l978, p. 4l) Since the sixty four individuals investigated in the present study are to be found in four separate and different groups, each group having a characteristic ethos and historicity (see chapter two), it follows that their different particular modes of being must, of necessity, be expressed and conmunicated via language, for, as Heidegger insists, "Language is the house of Being." (Steiner, l978, p. l22; see also Wittgenstein and Whorf, cited in Adelman, l973, p. ll5). That is, the members of any one of the groups in question will tend to share a particular orientation in the world and consequently will express this orientation in a way which tends to be unique to that particular group. Thus, it can be argued that the high degree of precision with which the groups were differentiated on task one is a positive indication that the groups investigated are not only different in name but also in their basic mode of being in-the world a difference that is mandatory in terms of the descriptions of the various group struc tures, organizations and doctrines presented in an earlier chapter. Further more, the fact that task two yields an even greater degree of precision bearing in mind that the two tasks are separated by a six week interval would seem to strongly suggest that the Extended Descriptions are valid descriptions of what it means to become and to be a member of the particular group from which such descriptions are derived.

G. NUMERATION In all cases, the Roman numerals indicate the protocol while the Arabic numerals that follow indicate the element of the Second Order Profile.

For example ... (XII;l0, ll.) ... signifies that the preceding descriptive statement may be found in protocol twelve, and that it comprises the tenth and eleventh elements of the Second Order Profile. Arabic numerals preceded by the letters ... no. ... (number) indicate the Categorg in which the descriptive statement is to be found. For example ... (no. 6 XII;lO, ll.) .

indicates that this descriptive statement occurs in the sixth Category of the hierarchy of Categories.

H. FULFILMENT OF PHENOMENOLOGICALLY REQUIRED CRITERIA In summary, the present research methodology fulfils the following criteria specified by the phenomenological nature of the present investigation: l. The research situation entails a description of the meaning structures of the phenomenon in its lived world context.

2. Explicitation of the data is concerned with the meaning of the data from the participant perspective.

3. The dialectic between approach, method and content is maintained.

That is, the method and the content reflect the phenomenological approach, namely, the understanding of man as being in the~world.

CHAPTER FIVE RESULTS

Introduction Presented in this chapter are examples ~ randomly selected from each group of the protocol material and the explicitation of this material according to the methodology outlined in the previous section.

For each group two protocols have been included. Each protocol is followed by the administered Informational Questionnaire, a list of the Natural Mean ing bnits emerging from the protocol, a Constituent Profile and a Second Order Profile. It is considered unduly space-consuming to detail the above data for all l6 protocols of each of the four groups.

After the two randomly selected protocols and the detailed data pertaining to a respective group, the hierarchical Categorization of the thematic elements derived from the data of all l6 protocols of that group is presented, followed by the Extended Description of the meaning of becoming and being a member of that particular group. The groups are presented in the sequence of the Jesus People, the Hare Krishna Devotees, the Maharaj Ji Premies and the Catholic Priests.

Concerning the striven for anonymity of each protocol, which was essential for the purpose of using judges in the validation phase of the research, the information eliminated from the protocol formats given to each of the judges is contained in parentheses and is underlined.

PART I THE JESUS PEOPLE

JESUS PERSON PROTOCOL ONE - ll!

INTERVIEwEE:/ (1)Well, once you become a (Christian), you obviously have a before and after and I can perhaps relate this experience to you just share with you what (Q5555) means to me, what He has saved me from, what it's like to know (ggsus). Someone once said that you've got to taste and see that (ggsus) is good, and it is this tasting that has made the difference in my life and so there is a difference in the Lord./ (2) Before I knew (the Lord Jesus), I was just completely lawless, a rebel in other words, not submissive to any authority to my parents. My mother tells me that right from a very early age, I was a little rebel. She just had to try and keep control over me, all the time, you know strange things, abnormal things, just being exceptionally naughty, you know, going out of my way to be naughty like burning a place down, or something like that, or a room down, and this was my rebellion./(3)1 don't know where it stems from or why, but I rebelled against authority./(4)I can remember from a very early age, about three or four, I started started sniffing benzene and petrol.

That led to smoking cigarettes, at a very young age, which then led to smoking grass/5)and nothing gave me satisfaction./(6)1 didn't know what to do in life, I was without a purpose, without a direction, and nothing really mattered.}7) I didn't have any principles, you know./8) Nothing mattered to me. I could do anything and that's why I started getting heavier. I didn't see any wrong in it. I felt I wanted to do what I wanted to do and no one could stop me.}9) At school it was the same problem.}10) In fact, today I regret it the fact that I had so much opportunity to further studying, and I just neglected it, I just chucked away so many opportunities because

of this rebellion, because I didn't want to do what others did. I didn't it wasn't appealing to me./(]1)I think the great event of my life up till I met (the Lord Jesus) was Woodstock*. Woodstock was the only sort of happening that gave me any hope in life that so many thousands of people could come together and supposedly live in love and peace, and this seemed to give me direction to carry on, to live./(]2)Before, I just saw every thing else as hypocrisy, I didn't want to do what other people did I It just wasn't real./(13)I looked at the (so called Christians) and their pre sentation of (desus) just didn't turn me on. People would say to me, "Cut your hair go to church Why are you doing this? You should be doing that." but (ggsus) was never presented to me./(14)So, there again, I couldn't accept what the religions of this world had to offer at that particular time, and so Woodstock meant so much to me, you know, their feeling of "Make love, not war" This is what really turned me on./(15)In myself I can become aggressive; I become argumentative, but I felt that this was good; to make love and not make war. It just seemed so wrong to me the fact that people were getting hung up on wars and such like./(]6)But, as I got into this way of life, which was just a rebellion, once again, towards the present society, I still felt unful filled It still wasn't completely real. I wasn't completely satisfied, I was hungry. It just didn't give me any satisfaction./(17)So, from a pleasure living life just completely goalless, astray I started becoming heavy, taking LSD. I thank God that it didn't lead to mainline, or anything like that, but I just started to freak out and so, from this pleasure seeking life, disaster started to come my way, you know. Things, just tragedies were happening in my life. I was totally unfulfilled life just was absolut ely sick. I contemplated suicide many times I couldn't face life it was just getting too much for me. Everybody seemed to be against me./(]8)There * (A mammoth music festival held in Upstate New York during August, I969)

were two marks in my life as I look back - and the one was fear, and the other one was a total depression. If there were any two marks that were distinct it was those two. I really feared tremendously in spite of the love that I claimed to have had, or that the hippie movement was offering.

I still feared tremendously - I still had tremendous depressions./(]9)I wanted to take my life,/(zoand so, from this pleasure seeking life, being unfulfilled, I started to realize that there must be a God,;2])and I couldn't accept this God (or Jesus). I rejected (Jesus), like I said, because of what was presented to me. I couldn't accept (Jesus Christ) as the way and so I started getting into (the Occult), I started getting into spiritualism, astral travelling, various philosophies, people's feelings about life that were different. I started getting into these things./(22) I thought I was quite good actually, I thought I was quite unique, in the sense that I was discovering new things. In a sense, I became quite self righteous, I felt that I was discovering a lot of truth that other people hadn't seen. In spite of my depression, my unfulfilment, I felt that I was discovering things, while other people were still hung up on the norm of life, I felt I was getting into spiritual things,/(zabnd, like I say, I couldn't accept (Jesus Christ)./(24)There were many religions that I read about and was told about and thought about, but nothing really seemed to be the answer. There was nothing radical enough to change me and to make me give my life completely for this cause. There was nothing real enough, or radical enough, that proved itself enough to me, to give my live to,/Q5)and like I say, my life ended up in a complete disaster./26) At a young age, I felt like an old man. I felt I had done so much, I felt so destroyed I had no hope. I didn't really want to carry on and I started turning, like I say, to religion in the end, hoping that there was something, but I couldn't accept (Jesus)./(27)And all I can say, is that a time came in my life when God really started to break me, He really Started to work in my life beyond

my comprehension. I couldn't understand what was going on -}28)but I realized such a need in my life. I realized that I needed to be changed from myself. I needed a change. I realized that other people couldn't give it to me. I desperately, desperately needed a change if there was such a thing./(29)All I can say is that three and a half to four years ago, for the first time in my life, I believe, I was presented with (the Gospel, with the good news of Jesus Christ), with this message of hope, and there one night at the (Invisible Church), as the (word of God) was (preached), to sense my own sinfulness so intensely like I never had before./(30)I began to see (Jesus Christ) as I had never seen before.

I began to see Him as more than just a historical person, more than just a man (someone who lived and was born to die for me, and someone who rose from the dead. Someone that is alive). And so I began to see that (Jesus was God), and that He demanded my life}3]) and I remember so distinctly that night, it was such a similar experience as what happened to (Peter and Philip - the Apostles, where Jesus said to them "Follow me" and that's just simply what it was). I realized my own condition. I had no hope to carry on, but (gesus) spoke with such authority. He commanded and said, "Follow me I demand your life, I demand that you come out of your own rulership, your own rebelling - to my rulership, to my authority.

It was the greatest decision I've ever made /(33in the midst of all of my confusion (ggsus) spoke to me, and it was a crucial moment in my life. It was a choice I had to make one way or the other. This night, I realized that this was the truth, that (Jesus Christ) was the way that there is no other way. That night, I saw it so clearly, and I still do, that (ggsus §?[j§§) is the only way and, in my helpless state, in my unbelieving state, I just reached out to (the Lord) and began to believe for the first time.

I reached out and took hold of (Jesus) as He said "Follow me" and I committed 8 ||/

my life I said, ("tgrd), take control of my life take every part of my life (Lord) (Lord), I've been living my life for l9 years until now, and its been an absolute disaster, an absolute mess."/(34)And I began to fear God, I began to see God as a Holy God, and so that night I committed my life to (Jesus Christ) and realized that this decision was for always that there was no turning back, no matter how hard the going got,/(asand it does get hard. There are still times when I go through fear, depression, and it's really when I look to myself and not to (gesus). It's when I take my eyes off (gesus) and I look to the surroundings, to the situations, that I become fearful, and I lose hope and I lose faith in God,/(a?but I thank (the Lord), I really thank God for the tremendous hope that He has given me, the reason He has given me to carry on, to persevere, not to become defeated as I always had been in the past. I'd given up, I'd never want to carry on, but as the Word of God says, "(Qg§u§) has not given us the spirit of fear, but of love, and of power, and of a sound mind",f37)and so God's attributes are good, they're wholesome, they're fearless, God is almighty and He is powerful. He's loving and He is able to set us free from these things that bring us into bondage and it's our sin really./(38)It's when we take our eyes off Qgesusj it's when we disbelieve, that we become so bound,/39)and God has given me such an urge to go forward for (gasps), to persevere, to want to die to myself./(40) Its a painful experience when God shows you what you are like; it's a valuable experience when God reveals to you your own selfishness, your own sin, your own rebellion, your own stupidity,your own foolishness.

It's painful, but it's valuable, when God reveals this to you./(4])And it's this that has given me so much hope. The (§iblg) says that we must welcome our trials as friends, and not despise them as enemies. we must welcome them, because they are there to strengthen us they are there to build us up. So when they come our way, we mustn't reject or despise them, but rather

use this stumbling block to become a stepping stone./42) And so, knowing (the Lord Jesus) has given me eternal life, I have assurance, assurance that I am saved, that I am God's child (that Jesus Christ died for me).

I have assurance that I have this life, and I thank God for not only that, but He helps me in my everyday walk.}43) In the after. I've shared with you the before we don't like to look at the before, but I thank God for the before, and anything else in what I did do. I made mistakes; I learnt by them as well. Lots of things, I regret, but I still don't think there could be any other way than going the way I did go. Tasting for myself, realizing my own self - realizing that I am an individual, that I have to make my own decisions concerning life, and so the after is a change as well./(44)God doesn't just leave you to aimlessly just stumble through life, but He is able to help you in your practical, everyday life. As (the apos tolic Paul) said that "without (Jesus), I can do nothing, and with Him I can do everything", and I feel that this is the story of my life, that with out (gesus) the proof was there. It was so evident that I was an absolute mess; I couldn't get myself together, but that with (gesus), all things are possible, and this is the reason and the hope that I have to carry on to persevere it's because of (gesus) that I can carry on./(45)I have an urge and I have a yearning to get into the deeper things of God not just to remain a baby./(46)God often shows me my own self, and I just turn sour when I see myself.%47)But I thank God that He gives me the grace, He enables me, He gives me that something, that yearning, to want to carry on, in spite of my failings, in spite of the fact that I have failed (Qesus).%48) we fail Him every time we don't believe. Every time we disbelieve in our hearts, we fail (the Lord),/(agknd so I have such an urge to carry out what (gesus) has called me for./(50)I feel that this is the greatest privilege of my life, and I don't want to miss it for anything. I've missed so many things before in my life. I've missed the mark, but I don't want to miss this mark./

(51) I want to give my whole life, day by day, moment by moment, I want to surrender my will, my self to God, and not live by my own will, but to obey,/(szgnd I believe that this is the most important thing for a (Christian)./(53)It's through obeying (the Lord Jesus) that we are saved, saved eternally from the power of sin. Ne are saved by obeying, by submitting to the rulership of (Jesus Christ), in our lives,/54)and this is my challenge in life not just that I may attain it, but I believe that I definitely must attain it first, that I must try to set the example.}55) As a (Christian), we can only look to (the Lord Jesus), we can't look to men. we can't compare ourselves with men, 'cause when we do, we find that we're so similar that we can't find much wrong with us, but as we compare ourselves to (the Lord Jesus), we find that we fall short.}56) So my urge is to, for me, first to become disciplined in my life, a thing which I never had before, when I was lawless, governed by my own lust, that horrible state of confusion. That state without God.

So I first must discipline my life and this is what it means to be a (disciple of Jesus). It's to discipline your life. To bring yourself under subjection to (the Lord Jesus), and then my challenge is to go into all the world and to make (disciples), to bring other people under the rulership of (the Lord Jesus) merely just submitting their entire wills to God./(57)! don't claim to be perfect, but I want to reach that stage of (the apostle Paul) - I fall so far short of it. I just pray that God would bring repentance in my own life because I want to attain it. This 8) .

state where (Paul said "Follow me, as I follow Jesus")}5 and I'm so sick of playing games. All my life, I've been playing games. But I mean $ . .

business with (the Lord Jesus)./( )It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God for God is not mocked (whatever a man sows, so shall he reap). And this is my motivation, is to give to God, all that I have in return - not that I could ever pay back what (Jesus) has done for me, but to give my entire iife in return, in thanksgiving my everything everything I am to (Jesus)./

INTERVIEWER: Thanks, (Brother Cecii).

INFORMATIONAL QUESTIONNAIRE PROTOCOL ONE §I§ NAMEr__LQ§§Q§_E§B§QN) ________ __ DATE: _____________________ __ (or initials if preferred) Please write down your experience of the interview which you have just had. You could, for example, state your attitude and feelings toward the interviewer and the interview situation, as well as any other feel ings you have toward the situation you have just been in.

ooo0ooo- The testimony that I gave, I feel is right as it is. There is nothing that I want to add, except that there are many more things that the Lord has done for me that I would not have the time to tell now. Other wise the testimony is right. I did not feel any nervousness at all and I quite enjoyed the interview with the interviewer. I felt at ease and relaxed.

oooDooo

LIST OF NATURAL MEANING UNITS JESUS PERSON PROTOCOL ONE (I)

R: I= REPETITION IRRELEVANT There has been a distinct change in my life through my tasting of Jesus as being good.

Before becoming a Christian I was extremely rebeliious from an early age, doing strange abnormal things. (see 4.) I do not know why I rebelled against authority.

I remember that I started taking drugs from an early age. (see 2.) Nothing gave me satisfaction. (see l6.) I had no purpose and no direction in life.

I had no principles.

Nothing mattered to me and I could see no wrong in doing what I wanted to do, and so I became increasingly deviant.

This was my problem at school.

I regret that because whatothersdid was not appealing I gave up my opportunities to study further I was given a hope and direction in life by Woodstock ( a music festival) where multitudes of young people supposedly lived to gether in love and peace. (see 14.) I saw everything as being hypocritical and I did not want to do what others were doing. (see l4.) I could not accept Christianity, but Jesus had never been pre sented to me.

I could net accept religion,_aud Hoodstock impressed ue_because ei this feeling of Jove and-paeifisnrwhieh it:nmnifested. (R) (see ll and 13.) Although I can become argumentative, I felt it was wrong to become involved in wars and such things.

My rebellion against society did not give me any fulfilment or satisfaction I felt hungry. (see 5.) I became increasingly deviant, tragedies were happening in my life and, unable to face life anymore, I contemplated suicide on several occasions. (see l9.) I felt tremendously depressed and fearful in spite of the love that I claimed and the hippie movement was offering.

I wanted-te-take my life. (R) (see l7.) Being completely unfulfilled, I began to realize that there must be a God.

I could not accept Jesus as He had been presented to me and so I became involved with the Occult.

In spite of my depression, I felt self righteous since I was discovering what I felt were new things, spiritual things, while others were still involved with accepted things of society.

I could-net-aeeept Jesus Ghrist. (R) (see l3 and 2l.) None of the religions appeared to be sufficiently radical to warrant my life's commitment.

My life became a complete disaster.

At an early age I felt wern eut and began turning te relig4en but L could net aeeept Ghrist. (R) (see 20 and 21.) God really started to break me up and to work in my life beyond my comprehension. (see 29 and 3l.) I realized that I desperately needed to change, if that were possible and that other people could not help me.

On a particular occasion when I was presented with the Word of God with the good news of Jesus Christ I sensed my sinfulness more intensely than I had ever before. (see 40.)

I began to see Christ as God and that He demanded my life. (R) (see 31 ) I distinctly remember that occasion when I had no will to continue and Christ demanded with great authority that I surrender to Him. (see 30.) This was the greatest decision that I have ever made.

In the midst of my confused and helpless state, Jesus spoke to me and, realizing that this was a crucial moment in my life, I committed my life to Christ, knowing that He was the only Truth.

(see 39 and 44.) I began to fear God and to see Him as a Holy God and realized that this commitment was permanent regardless of how difficult this path became.

There are still occasions when I become fearful and depressed but these are only when I fail to look to Christ.

God has given me tremendous hope and purpose in life and the fortitude to persevere. (see 44 and 47.) God's attributes are good, wholesome and fearless God is powerful and loving and is able to set us free.

when we turn our attention away from Jesus then we sin. (see 53.) I have a great desire to commit my life to Jesus and to die to myself. (see 33.) It is a painful although valuable experience when God reveals your selfishness, stupidity and rebellion to you. (see 29 and 46.) According to a Biblical injunction I now strive to view my trials positively so that they may strengthen me rather than to view them as stumbling blocks. (see 43.) I thank God that I have an assurance of eternal life and that He helps me in everyday life. (see 44.)

l0l

Although I may regret much of my past, I now realize that it had to be that way in order for me to grow and that there could have been no other way. (see 4l.) Nithaut Jesus my 44Fe was-an abse4ute-mess; and it is only threagh-Jesus that I have been able-te persevere. (R) - (see 33,36 and 42.) I have a desire to know God more deeply. (see 49, 51, 57 and 59.) I de net 4+ke-what I see in-mysel¥. (R) (see 40.) I thank God that He gives me the desire to persevere in spite of my failings and my failing of Jesus. (see 36.) we fail God everytime we do not believe Him.

I have a tremendous desire to carry out what Jesus has called me for. (see 45, 5l, 57 and 59.) I feel that this is the greatest privilege of my life which I must not miss.

I want to give my whole life to God not to live by my own Will but rather to obey. (see 45, 49, 57 and 59.) I believe that obedience is the most important thing for a Christian.

By obeying Jesus we are saved from sin. (see 38.) I feel that my challenge in life is to set an example. (see 56.) As a Christian I must look to God rather than to man for an example of how to live my life. V My desire is to lead a disciplined life under the rulership of Jesus and to spread the word of God. (see 54.) I pray that I will repent so that I will faithfully follow Jesus.

(see 45, 49, 51 and 59.) I am tired of playing games - I wish to take God seriously.

It is my desire to give everything in my life to God in thanks for what He did for me. (see 45, 49, 5l and 57.) l02

1CONSTITUENT PROFILE JESUS PERSON ' PROTOCUL ONE (I1

1Through my tasting of Jesus being good my life has changed greatly. From an early age I was extremely rebellious and did many abnormal things. I do not know why I rebelled against authority. I had no purpose and direc tion in life and no principles so that I could see no wrong in doing what I wanted regardless of other people, and nothing gave me satisfaction. I regret that, because what others did was not appealing to me, I passed up the opportunities at school for further study. I could not accept Christ ianity but Jesus had never been presented to me and I was impressed by Woodstock where there was this feeling of love and pacifism. Although I can be argumentative I do feel that it is wrong to become involved in wars.

I became increasingly deviant and viewed everything as hypocritical. I was hungry for fulfilment and, feeling increasingly unsatisfied, contem plated suicide on several occasions. Tragedies were happening in my life and I felt tremendously depressed and fearful in spite of the love that I claimed and that the hippie movement was offering. I began to realize that there must be a God,but I could not accept Jesus. Hence I became involved in the Occult. In spite of my depression I felt self righteous while discovering what I felt were new phenomena spiritual phenomena while others were still involved with things accepted in society. None of the religions appeared to be sufficiently radical to warrant my life's commitment and my life ended up a complete disaster. God began to really work in my life beyond my comprehension. I realized that I desperately needed to change, if that were possible, and that other people could not help me. On a particular occasion when I was presented with the word of God with the good news of Jesus I sensed my sinfulness more intensely than I had ever before. It is a painful although invaluable experience

103

1when God reveals your selfishness, stupidity and rebellion to you. I distinctly remember that occasion when I had no will to continue but Christ demanded with great authority that I surrender to Him, and the greatest decision that I've ever made was when, in the middle of my confused and helpless state, Jesus spoke to me and, realizing that this was a crucial moment in my life, I committed my life to Christ knowing that He was the only Truth.

I began to fear God and to see Him as a Holy God and realized that my commitment was permanent regardless of how difficult things became.

I still become depressed and fearful,but that is only when I fail to look to Christ. God is good, wholesome, fearless, powerful and loving, being able to set us free from sin which we tend to commit when we turn away from Christ. God has given me tremendous purpose in life and the fortitude to persevere. Following a Biblical injunction, I now strive to view my trials positively rather than as stumbling blocks in order that I may mature. Although I regret much of my past, I realize that it had to be that way in order for me to develop, and I thank God that I now have the assurance of an eternal life as well as the knowledge that God helps ne in everyday life. I have a desire to know God more deeply and to carry out what Jesus has called me for in gratitude for what He did for me. I feel that this is the greatest privilege of my life which I must not miss.

I also believe that the most important thing for a Christian is to die to himself to give his whole life to God and to obey God. we fail God every time we do not believe Him. As a Christian, I must look to God for an example of how to lead my life and not to man. My aspiration is to set an Example and lead a disciplined life under the rulership of Jesus so that I may spread the Nord of God. I pray that I will repent so that I will faithfully follow Jesus. I am now tired of playing games and wish to take God seriously.

seconn onozn PROFILE JESUS PERSON PROTOCOL one (ll Feels that his life has greatly changed through a tasting of Jesus being good.

Rebellious from an early age did abnormal things.

No purpose in life, no principles, felt unfulfilled and nothing seemed to satisfy.

Tremendously depressed and fearful tragedies were occurring contemplated suicide several times.

Regrets that passed up opportunities for further study because he did not find appealing what others were doing.

was unable to accept Jesus as presented to him.

Held pacifist views became increasingly alienated.

Became involved with the Occult.

Felt self righteous when behaving in a manner different from the mainstream values .

Unable to find a religion sufficiently radical to warrant his life's commitment.

Realized that if it were possible to change he had to change and that others were unable to help him God began to work in his life.

Committed himself to God after he had lost all hope - was confused realized his sinfulness, stupidity and rebelliousness.

Fears God and sees Him positively: Holy, wholesome, good, fearless, loving, powerful/authoritative, helps one continually.

Views his commitment as being permanent Still becomes depressed and fearful occasionally.

= Now has a great purpose in life and fortitude to continue.

= Sin occurs when we turn away from Christ.

= Views his hardships in a positive light.

= Believes he has eternal life.

= Desires to know God more fully and to obey God and to carry out, in gratitude, what Jesus has called him for.

= Feels that it is a privilege to be able to serve God.

= Feels that it is important that man follows God and not his fellow man.

= wishes to be an example and to spread God's Word.

= Tired of being false wishes to take God seriously.

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JESUS PERSON PROTOCOL FIFTEEN - (XV) INTERVIEHEE:/(1) Well, I became a (Christian), because primarily God drew me. I didn't seek after a specific way. I was wanting to go back to England, and God drew me at a time when my whole life was geared to go down a certain road. We'd organized an overland trip. I was getting into freelance photography. I was going to do photojournalism. All this type of thing was lined up in front of me,/(2) and it was when I was doing a story for the "Star" I went down to (the Invisible Church) for a story that one of the guys there invited me to go to Kimberley with them. while I was down there, in Kimberley, formulating the story and the information I needed, I found deeper things than what I expected, and it was this, should I say, that pricked my conscience, but that's what it was. It was very convicting. I couldn't deny these people had a very sincere, deep walk with (ghrjst), and it wasn't just (churchianity)./(3) So I asked questions, basically. Questions from my own point of view, not just for a story, and I didn't expect to have to act upon the decision and the answers that I got, because I thought it would just be information for my experience of life in general, but it was nevertheless hard to deny that (Christ said, "This is the day of salvation ") that there's no escape, and I had to choose between my future and (Jesus Christ)./(4) I had no information about (ghrist), except that which I knew in (Sunday school), which put me off more than anything. It seemed like a very musty history story, and it was a case of a very magnetic feeling deep inside a drawing to something, not knowing what./(5) Every feeling must come to a point of decision, and I had to pray and ask for forgiveness./(5) I found this difficult, because it was the first time in my life that I'd prayed for

107 forgiveness, and for the salvation of my soul, you know,/(7) which was a very serious thing to think about, because I knew that I wouldn't go on the trip. I knew that my life would change radically. I knew these things before I went into it./(8) Nevertheless, God was calling me very much so, and so I answered His call. I was obedient to it./(9) I praise His name that I was./(10) From then onwards, I worked with the (church) permanently.

I gave up my job, as such. I gave up the trip, and I just went to the deep end, you might say. I thought it was the best place to start, or other people thought it was the best place for me to start, you know,/(11) and it was very exciting./(12) It was true, when He says (He's come to give you life in abundance). It was life in abundance,/(13) but then God God's a very wise God./(14) He doesn't just elevate you to great heights. Initially, your initial spiritual experience is incredible, but you do come down to earth, and you've got to walk the road that (§hri§t) walked. You've got to start at rung one and start the climb./(15) Since that day, (Christianity) has been the sole purpose and reason I'm alive; it's been the sole motiva tion in my life. Everything I do, revolves around my belief in (ghrist).

I see no other thing on this earth that has any consequence unless it per tains to (ghrist), in line with His will. It's either in His will, or out of His will, and my daily thoughts are to find His perfect will for my life./(16) (Christianity) has been the hardest road I've ever known in my life. It's been a life of dying to oneself. (As the scripture says, rather that we fall and be broken on the rock, than the rock fall on us, and crush us) The breaking has not been easy, but it's better that we die now, and live later, and live in eternal glory, and I've found it very difficult, but possible, because all things are possible through (ghrist) who strengthens us, and it's this that's been such a life saver, an absolute life saver./('7) Before, I had very little in life. My life depended on how many friends I08 surrounded me very much on my circumstances. If those departed, then I felt like departing myself (laughs) So, you know, if you depend on those sort of insecure things, then you are basically insecure yourself, and now I can trust in that which is not seen, but deeply felt in the spirit./(18) I've found a new dimension which is spiritual, which is incredible, you know, which is I can't there's no words really to put it in a nutshell. It can only come through living from day to day, and you might catch me some time during the day, when I feel very low, but (gesus) is still there; I would never deny that (ghrist) is there.

Other times, I would be bubbling over, telling somebody else just what it means to know (Jesus Christ, who is) God, who is creator of all, and not just a philosopher, and another way, another truth. (To know truth and the way, and the life is quite something). And so (Christianity) is /(19) I don't know why I was chosen I often wonder, you know. It's often I often think in awe of why I was chosen why ne? what's so special about me, you know that God saw fit to pick me? And this to me is a tremendous privi ledge to serve God, (even through a crucified life, even though it means carrying the cross) a sacrificial life sometimes./(20)These things never really trouble me, because I know that He trod that road and, if He trod it, it was so that we would follow, and we were abledto go the same way.

It was done for us./(21) There is nothing that we cannot endure, that God gives us. He'll never put us beyond that which we can't endure. This is so important, because you don't know what your limits are, and if you limit yourself, according to yourself, according to your capabilities, then you are very limited, but if you limit yourself according to God's capabilities, then there's no limit,/(Z2) and this is tremendous to have the guiding hand of God behind you, to see you through, just day to day, moment by moment./(23) I used to live in the hope of (the rapture coming any day), taking me away from this lot, and I realize now that that's a fool's pride, you know. You l09 can't live like that. It's impossible to live in that fictitious realm not that it won't come to pass, but to rest on it is not good. One has to gainvictories in the reality of the moment, in the situation in hand, and only by that can you progress can you start to win the race that (faul) calls us to. We must aim for the prize of the high calling./(24) My life is changed tremendously, absolutely. It's as different as chalk and cheese.

(Before I was a Christian, I was blind. Now I'm a Christian, I can see).

It's as simple as that, although it can be very involved./(25) Certain things happened immediately; smoking just fell away, you know, a simple thing like cigarettes. I used to enjoy cigarettes, like millions of other people would say. Actually what they're saying is they're bound to them. They serve cigarettes (laughs) cigarettes don't serve them as pleasure; they serve cigarettes. We are servants to pleasures, and I didn't realize this until I was released from it, and the bonds fell away, you know. This is just one thing that happened a couple of hours after I was saved. The very fact that I looked at a cigarette and saw it for what it was, and what was behind it, you know, the destruction of many, many people, I believe, mentally, physically. It's not the true body that God intended us to have.

To have the aid of cigarettes, you know./(26) I just had no desire to enjoy the world like I used to do. I had no desire. I couldn't deny it./(27) I couldn't say that I was pious and Holy. I wasn't. I'm still a sinner. I'm still saved by grace, you know./(28) Certain areas, you just battle with, you know, there's certain stumbling blocks in one's life, but nevertheless, the general feeling towards life changed so radically. I had no desire of parties, or for rushing about with the mad jet set./(29) I went back I came back here, and I told people without any qualm, I just said, "I've accepted (Jesus Christ), and its changed me."/(30) well, a few thought I was mad. A few people thought I'd get over it, that I'd come back to normal llO but their normality and my normality were poles apart, and I knew they would be,/(31) and I knew and I know they'll never ever come together, unless God draws them, and they obey that drawing./(32) It's incredible, really, and I praise God. Sometimes, I must look back and just remember what I was, and what I am, because othenwise, I'd forget, but you do forget sometimes,that you were taken out of darkness linto His glorious light,/(33) He says you've got to be in the world, but don't be of it, and we can't be of it, it's impossible to be of the world. Sometimes, you try I'm not saying it's not without temptation. It would be stupid, if it wasn't. we're not in Heaven yet,/(34) and this life, I believe, is a test, and we must prove ourselves worthy,/(35) but we're on an elastic band, you know, and the faster we run into the world, the longer the elastic band goes and the quicker we shoot back, and the further down the spring board goes, you know, the high er you are going to shoot, the further you go down into the world, you realize the iniquity that abounds there, and you just want to rush back up to (the Lord) you know, and just huddle around His feet, and worship Him, and (laughs) - and just get back in there, where it's really at where life really is./(36) we're creatures created by God, every man, woman, and child on this earth. God is our natural father, and so we're naturally going to obey Him, or disobey Him.

Every man knows what he's doing, according to God. There's no man ignorant, because he was created by God; that very fact verifies that we know where we stand,/(37) and knowing that, I want to get back to my spiritual father, you know, and if I'm not there, then I feel very lonely and cold and very much like (the prodigal son),/(38) and I've realized (the Book,the Bible), the Word of God, (the scriptures) a life itself everyone is a reflection of what I was, and what I am. I read about (95119); he wasn't perfect, by any long stretch of the imagination. (§aul) - all the prophets (Hoses) - all relative failures. we're all relative failures, but God chose them./ lll (39) The foolish things of this world; those things that don't pretend to get it together, who are self sufficient, who are not islands, who need love, and cherish that truth which they recognize as being from God, because it's truth,/(40) and reading this again, I realize I'm just like (Moses), I'm just like (David) we have a lot in common. (Paul, the Apostle We have Peter, the fisherman) we have so many tremendous things in common,/(41) that when if I ever meet them, which I hope I will, then we'll have a lot to talk about,/(42) and I see nothing unnatural about that statement - (laughs) - I don't see it as God's will that He divorces us from our friends, you know. I don't see it as God's will that/(43) Well, whatever He does, God is a God of love, and He does it for our benefit, because He loves us, and He has us in mind when He plans something./(44) So whatever He's got in store for me, I praise Him,/(45) and I just wait - (laughs) waiting is the hardest part actually. The patience that's required to wait, you know, but your patience shall be rewarded; I really believe it./ INTERVIEWER: Fine, thanks very much, (J0hn.) INTERVIEWEE: Pleasure.

ll2

1INFORMATIONAL QUESTIONNAIRE PROTOCOL FIFTEEN (XV) NAME:___(Q§§y§_E§B§Qy_) ______ __ DATE: _______________________ __ (or initials if preferred) Please write down your experience of the interview which you have just had.

You could, for example, state your attitude and feelings toward the inter viewer and the interview situation, as well as any other feelings you have toward the situation you have just been in.

- ooo0ooo- I felt it a privelege (sic) to glorify God in this inverview. A Christian is a person who should be prepared to share the miracle God did (sic) in his life to (sic) anyone at anytime without any thought of his composier (sic) and attitude towards the interviewer.

-ooo0ooo LIST OF NATURAL MEANING UNITS JESUS PERSON PROTOCOL FIFTEEN (XV) R = REPETITION I = IRRELEVANT = I became a Christian because God drew me to Him rather than because I was specifically searching.

Unexpectedly I realized that the Christians - with whom I had become involved - had a sincere and deep relationship with Christ.

Out of curiosity I started making enquiries and realized that I was unable to escape Christ that I would have to choose between my future and Christ.

Despite the fact that the only information I had concerning Christ had been conveyed as if it were musty history I nevertheless felt drawn to something I had a deep magnetic feeling.

I decided to pray and to ask for forgiveness.

I found it difficult to pray as this was the first time I had prayed for forgiveness and for the salvation of my soul.

I knew before I prayed that this (see 6.) was a serious thing and that consequently my life project would be changed drastically.

(see Z4, 25, 28 and 32.) God kept calling me and I was obedient to this call.

I praise God that I was obedient.

I gave up my job and plans in order to work full time for the church This was very exciting.

Christ gave me life in abundance.

Gad is wise. (R) - (see 21 and 43.) My initial spiritual experience was incredible but one has to face up to reality and to walk the road that Christ walked.

ll4

1Christianity is my sole purpose in life my daily thoughts are to find His perfect will for my life.

Christianity is the most difficult path I have known a path of dying to oneself but this has only been possible through Christ's strength. (see l9 and 20.) My security previously depended upon my surrounding circumstances while now I have something that I can trust in completely and that is deeply felt.

I have found a new dimension a spiritual dimension.

Although this is a difficult path, I nevertheless feel privileged to have been chosen to serve Christ. (see l6.) Knowing that Christ suffered for me, difficulties in being a Christian do not worry me. (see l0.) By looking to God we are able to fulfil our potential and God will never take us beyond our endurance. (see l3 and 43.) It is tremendous to have God guiding you.

I used to live in the hope of Christ's return but now I realize that I must make the most of every moment.

My life has changed tremendously I was blind and now I can see.

(see 7, 25, 28 and 32.) I My attitude toward certain things changed almost immediately after accepting Christ. (see 7, 24, 28 and 32.) I no longer desired to enjoy the world as I had done.

I am still a sinner and am only saved by grace.

My general attitude toward life has changed although there are still some stumbling blocks. (see 7, 24, 25 and 32.) I was unashamedly able to admit to others that I had accepted Christ and that He had changed me.

ll5

1Some people thought that I would return to normal but their normality and mine are poles apart.

Our normalities will never meet until these people (see 30.) obey God's call.

I thank God for the incredible change that I have undergone.

(see 7, 24, 25 and 28.) I attempted to avoid temptation although this still exists.

(see 34.) This life is a test for us to prove our worthiness. (see 33.) The more we become implicated in the world, the more we realize its iniquity and the more desirous of God's protection we become.

(see 37.) Ne one is ignerant ef-Ged beeause we have been ereated by God. (I) I feel lonely and cold if I am not with God. (see 35.) I have realized that the Biblical characters were relative failures just as I am. (see 40.) It is foolish to think that we do not need love, Truth and are self sufficient without God.

i reai+ze that-§ am just ++ke-the Biblical eharaeters. (R) (see 38.) He wil4 have a let to talk-about when we meet. (I) § do-not see this-(statement 41:) as being-an unnatural statement. (I) God is a loving God and does those things which are for our benefit. (see l3 and 21.) I praise God for what He has in store for me.

It is difficult waiting for God to act although my patience shall be rewarded.

ll6

1 CONSTITUENT PROFILE
JESUS PERSON PROTOCOL FIFTEEN (XVI

I became a Christian because God drew me rather than because I was specifi cally searching. Unexpectedly I began to realize that the Jesus People with whom I had become involved had a sincere and deep relationship with Christ, and also that I would be unable to escape Christ that I would have to choose between Christ and my future. Although the only information that I had received concerning Christ was not particularly inspiring, I nevertheless felt magnetically drawn to something and felt that I must ask for forgiveness. I found this difficult because it was the first time that I had prayed for forgiveness and for the salvation of my soul knowing full well that my life project would change drastically. Yet God kept calling me and I was obedient. I praise God that I was obedient. I gave up my job and plans in order to work full time for the church. Although my initial spiritual experience was incredible and life was exciting, one has to face up to reality and walk the road that Christ walked. I was given life in abundance and Christianity became my sole purpose in life my daily thoughts are to find His perfect will for my life. Although the Christian life is the most difficult path I have ever known a path of dying to oneself - I have had strength knowing that Christ suffered for me and feel that it is a privilege to have been chosen to serve Christ. My security previously depended upon my surrounding circumstances while now I have something that I can trust in completely and that is deeply felt. I have found a new dimension - a spiritual dimension. Through God we are able to fulfil ourselves with the knowledge that Christ will never take us beyond the limits of our endurance. It is tremendous to have God guiding me and I now realize that I must make the most of every moment although I used to live in the hope of Christ's return. My life has changed greatly I was

ll7

blind while now I can see. Some of my attitudes changed immediately and although there are still some stumbling blocks my general orientation towards life has changed. I could unashamedly admit that I had accepted Christ and that He had changed me. I attempted to avoid temptation and although I am still a sinner I am saved through His grace. Some people thought that I would return to normal, but their normality and mine are very different and will only converge once these people obey God's call.

I thank God for this incredible change and feel that this life is a test for us to prove our worthiness. The more implicated in the world we become, the more we realize its iniquity and the more desirous of God's protection we become. I feel lonely and cold if I am not with God. It is foolish to think that we are self sufficient and do not need love and the Truth. I have realized that I am a failure as were the Biblical characters originally, and I praise God for what He has planned for me although waiting is difficult but my patience shall be rewarded. I know that God is a loving God and does those things which are for our benefit.

ll8

SECOND ORDER PROFILE
JESUS PERSON PROTOCOL FIFTEEN (XV)

I was drawn by God; felt magnetically drawn was not searching.

Felt that Jesus People had a sincere and deep relationship with Christ. Knew that he would have to accept Christ.

Felt he must ask God for forgiveness and for salvation of his soul difficult because had not done this before - knew that life project would change drastically.

Grateful to God that he was obedient and answered God's persistent calls.

Gave up job and plans in order to work full time for God.

Spiritual experience was incredible.

Initially this new life was exciting but must eventually face up to reality.

Felt that he had been given life in abundance.

The sole purpose of his life was now Christianity.

Christianity is a difficult path one of dying to oneself although the knowledge of Christ's suffering provides a source of strength it is a privilege to serve God.

Now more secure has found a spiritual dinension in life.

Can become fulfilled through God.

Feels good to be guided by God. (see 29.) Realizes that every moment must be made the most of rather than living for the future.

Life-project changed greatly certain attitudes changed immediately No longer enjoyed things that he used to enjoy.

Not ashamed to admitting acceptance of Christ.

Attempts to avoid temptation but still a sinner saved through the grace of God.

Non Christian friends must change through obedience to God.

Grateful to God for great changes that have occurred in his life Views life as a test to prove our worthiness.

Believes that the more we become implicated in the world, the more we realize its iniquity and the more desirous of God's pro tection we become.

Feels lonely and cold without God's presence.

Identification with Biblical characters initial failures (as he believes he is).

Foolish to believe that we are self sufficient and do not need God.

Foolish not to cherish the Truth.

God is seen as being wise and loving.

Praises God for His plan for him. (see l4.) Difficult to wait for God to act although confident that patience shall be rewarded.

120

HIERARCHICAL CATEGORIZATION PERTAINING T0 THE Hierarchical Order

JESUS PEOPLE

Feels has been set free, stopped searching for peace, problems disappeared, felt that sins were forgiven, felt like a new person, weight of con science lifted, peaceful, felt happiness and re lief, felt assurance, feels more mature, more settled,more relaxed, enjoys life, now accepts responsibility, feels protected, more integrated. 93.75% (l5) (II;5,ll,l2,l5,l9.) (III; l9,22.) (IV; ll.) (V;l0.) (VI;9.) (VII;l0,ll.) (VIII;6,8,l0,l6.) (IX;4,8,l2.) (X;ll.) (XI;ll,l2.) (XII:l0.) (XIII;9,ll.) (XIV;8.) (XV;8,l2.) (XVI;l0,l2,2l.) Trusts people, no longer uses people, has many friends, can now relate better to people, more accepting of all types of people, more helpful and kind to others in need, more open person, more in volved with people, more love for people, not as self-centred more aware of others' needs, now has true friends. 81 25% (13) (II;l7,l8.) (III;l6.) (V;8,9.) (VI;l2.) (VII;4,5,6,8.) (VIII;l5.) (IX;l3.) (X;l2,l3.) (XI;l5.) (XII;l3.) (XIlI;l7.) (XIV;9,ll.) (XVI;l6,l7,2O.)

121

1 Feels that through a tasting of Jesus being good, his life has greatly changed, God changes me, not I myself, feels that he has a changed perspective, feels different from pre Christian state, as if past did not exist, old desires fell away, felt delivered from a life-style, although still a sinner, is saved by the grace of God, grateful to God for changes in lif@ 75.00% (12) (I;l.) (II;9,l0.) (IIl;4,l5.) (V;7.) (VII;7.) (VIII;7,l3.) (X;l0.) (XI;l0.) (XII;9.) (XIII;l6.) (XV;l6,l7,l9,2l,29.) (xv1;11,1s,19.)

Fears God and sees Him positively; good, fearless, loving, powerful,authoritative, helps one daily, God is a friend, God cares for us, know that Jesus will never forsake me, God is a true friend, helps in times of need, wonderful to serve God, God gives me everything, Christ suffered for us. 68.75% (ll) (I;l3.) (II;8.) (III;5,l8.) (IV, 8,12.) (VI;lD.) (VII;l3.) (VIII;ll,l2,l4.) (IX;l4.) (x1v;5.) (xv;11,23,24,2e.) (xv1;13.) Rebellious from an early age, did abnormal things, took drugs for experience, drugs didn't give any peace, became rebellious after parents' divorce. 55 25% (9) (I;2.) (III;2.) (IV;6.) (V;5.) (VI;3.) (IX;7.) (XI;4.) (XIII;4.) (XVI;4.)

122

1 Now has a purpose in life, the fortitude to persevere,a direction in studies, has a full life, Christ is sole purpose in life, Jesus has fulfilled life, sees trials in positive light, God must be followed not man. 50 00% (3) (I;l6,l8,22.) (III;20.) (V;l2.) (IX;9.) (XI;l6.) (XII;ll,l2.) (XIII:l2,l8,l9.) (XV;9.l0.) Became involved in the Occult, in astrology, meditation, searching in Eastern and Western philosophies. Searching in philosophy did not help still something missing. 50.00% (8) (1;s.) {11;6.) (1v;1,2,3,4,5.) (v1;s.) (1x;7.) (x1;4,s.) 1 (xu;1,s.) (x1v;3.) Supported Christians but feared that life-style may be dull, may have to sacrifice, accepted Christ after much hesitation, accepted Christ after much conflict, not initially sincere, but convinced through inter personal encounter. 50.00% (8) (II;2,3.) (III;7.9.) (VIII;5.) (IX;l,2,3.) (XII;4,8.) (XIII;7.) (XIV;4.) (XVI;8.) Unhappy at home, ran away from home, parental marital problems, family not close, felt left out, lonely, little communication in family, never confided in anyone. 37.50%(6) (V;l,2.) (VI;l,2.) (VIII;2.)(XI;l,3.) (XIV;l,2.) (XVI;2,3.) No purpose, felt unfulfilled, nothing satisfied, depressed, fearful, tragedies wereoccurring, contemplated suicide, bored, felt lost, felt empty, unhappy, life was a drag, felt there was something more to life.

(I;3,4.) (III;2,3,6,8.) (X;l.) (XI;2.) (XIV;2,7.) (XVI;3.) Could see that Christians had something very basic, able to identify with the Jesus People, had something I didn't, Jesus People had a sincere and deep relationship with Christ.

(111;13;) (1v;9.) (vx;s.) (x1;7.) (x111;5.) (xv;2.) Changing slowly through Christ.

(II;l6 ) (V;6 ) (VII;9.) (X;5.) (XIV;l2.) Upset that Christian friends were so happy yet he was so unhappy, Christians seemed to be full of love, could not understand how Christian friends were so happy, attracted by the Christians' concern for others.

(III;lO.) (VI;l3.) (XIII;6.) (XIV;6.) (XVI;6.) Feels has eternal life, now has certainty about life after death, hopes to have eternal life.

(I;l9.) (1V;l3.) (IX;l0.) (XIII;l4.) Initially sceptical, but enjoyed being involved, initially argued but eventually accepted, initially disparaging, but eventually accepted Christ (VIII;4.) (X;5.) (XI;8.) (XVI;7.) 123

137.5o%(s) 37.5o%(s) 31.25% (5) 31.25% (5) 25.00% (4) 25.00% (4) Could see I was a sinner, relative failure, asked God for forgiveness and for salvation of soul, was useless, felt inferior, was self-conscious.

(II;l4.) (IX;ll.) (XV;4,25.) (XVI;3,l5.) Felt self righteous doing things that differed from main stream values, always wanted own way - thought he was the best, unable to take criticism.

(I;9.) (IX;5,6.) (X;6.) Feels that it is a privilege to be able to serve God, feels fortunate to have God in his life.

(I;2l.) (VII;3.) (XV;ll.) Feels that God is guiding life, God takes control of une's life, feels good to be guided by God.

(VIX;l2.) (IX;ll.) (XV;l4.) Did not feel different after accepting Christ, but knew something was real in my life, nothing fantastic occurred, but felt could really talk to God.

(IV;l0.) (XI;9.) (XIII;8,l5.) Committed life to Christ during a crisis, could see how sinful he was, how stupid, how rebellious, unable to accept Christ until his world collapsed, everything became gradually worse until accepted Christ.

(I;l2.) (III;l2.) (XII;5,6,7.) 124

125.00% (4) 1a.7s% (3) 18.75% (3) 18.75% (3) 18.75% (3) 1a.75% (3) with present perspective can see that God has been directing life since birth, feels that it was God's will that he become a Christian, did not realize what Christ had been doing for me.

(II;l,4.) (III;2l.) Wishes to take God seriously, must get back to God other wise no goal in life.

(I;24.) (III;ll,l4.l7.) Believes in the Devil (11;7.) (v111;14.) Negative attitude towards the world after joining movement: no perfect place, world a difficult place to live in, full of iniquity.

(XI; 4,13.) (XV; 23.) Negative attitude toward man after joining the movement: problem of today is decaying morals, people usually fail whatever they attempt.

(1v;4.) (v1;4.) Feels that initially did many foolish things as a Christian; gave up job to work full time for God.

(XIII;ll.) (XV;6.) l25

112.50% (2) 12.50% (2) 12.50% (2) 12.50% (2) 12.50% (2) 12.50% (2)

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1Began to doubt salvation, feared that feeling would not 18St 12.50% (2) (XIlI;l0.) (XVI;9.) Christian life is not easy one of dying to oneself. l2.50% (2) (XV;ll,30.) (XVI;l4.) Regrets that passed up opportunity for furthering studies because he did not find appealing what others were doing. 6.25% (l) (I;5.) Unable to accept Jesus as presented to him, unable to accept religion because could not find a religion radical enough to commit myself to. 6.25% (l) (I;6,l0.) Had pacifist views. 6.25% (1) (I;7.) Realized that had to change but people unable to help - God began to work in his life. 6.25% (1) (I;ll.) Sees his commitment to Christ as being permanent. 6.25% (l) (l;l4.) Still occasionally depressed and fearful. 6.25% (1) (I§l5.)

127 Sin occurs when we don't follow God. 6.25% (l) (I;l7 ) wants to know God more fully, feels that must obey Him and in thanks for His suffering carry out what Jesus has called him for. 6.25% (l) (I;20.) Wishes to be an example to others, spread God's word. 6.25% (l) (I;23.) Being a Christian is not as difficult as I thought it would be. 6.25% (1) (n;13.) Not attracted to the church but believed in an infinite power. 6.25% (l) (III;l.) Man's greatest striving is for peace. 6.25% (l) (IV;8.) Man strives to be with God becomes anxious and frustrated when not in contact with God. 6.25% (l) (IV;l4.) Before joining the movement was unable to find peace because striving for harmony, could not find answers to questions. 5 35% (1) (V;3,4.) Feels that he can cope with anything.

(V;ll.) I usually failed at whatever I did.

(VI;5.) Comes from a haPPy, Christian home, sheltered life, easy going (VII;l.) Preferred being on own.

(v11;2.) Loves telling people about Christ.

(VII;l5.) Family not religious but still prayed when in need, read Bible regularly.

(VIII;l.) Liked informal atmosphere of Invisible Church.

(v111;a.) As new attitudes developed, so circle of friends changed.

(VIII;9.) Effects of Christianity are not psychological, can feel that it is the truth.

(IX;l5.) Has initially irresponsible as a Christian, but God put it to good use.

(X;7,8 ) Still has problems but has someone to take them to.

(X;9.) Made to feel more of a woman rather than having to compete with men.

(XI;l4.) wished to escape from everything.

(XII;Z.) Felt forced to attend church, which he found neaningless (XIII;l,2.) Feels that has been truthful to God and himself.

(XIII;l3.) Feels good to belong.

(XIII;20.) was not searching but Christ drew me felt magnetically drawn, knew I would have to accept Christ.

(XV;l,3,5.) Knew that life would change radically if accepted Christ.

(xv;4.) l29 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% (1) () () (1) (1) (1) ( () (ll

130 Spirituai experience was incredibie. 6.25% (1) (xv;7.) Through Christ, one realizes one's fuii potentiai. 6.25% (1) (XV;13.) Reaiizes that must make the most of every moment. 6.25% (1) (XV;15.) Not ashamed of telling peopie of his acceptance of Christ. 6.25% (1) (XV;18.) Feels that non Christian friends must change through obedience to God. 6.25% (1) (XV;20.) Sees life as a test to prove our worthiness. 6.25% (1) (XV;22.) Fooiish to beiieve we are self sufficient and do not need God and do not need to cherish the truth, feeis lonely and coid without God's presence. 5 25% (1) (xv;24,26,27.) l3l EXTENDED DESCRIPTION OF THE MEANING OF BECOMING AND BEING A MEMBER OF THE JESUS MOVEMENT A major theme of becoming a Jesus Person is one of change (nos; l,2 and 3.) more specifically, a feeling of being changed, such that there is a feeling of being delivered from one's past, of being saved by the grace of God, for which one is truly grateful. One's life is being controlled by God; He is a friend who cares for one and who will never forsake one, a friend who will help in times of need. There is a closeness to God; a wanting to carry out what Jesus has called one for, a feeling that God is real in one's life and that one can really talk to God (nos. 3,4,20 and 37.). Hence, their relation ship to the world is primarily one of being-controlled rather than of being in control. Associated with being controlled is a feeling of relief; a feeling of being set free, of one's sins being forgiven, of the weight of one's conscience being lifted and of being protected (no.l.). q Being controlled absolves one from the need to govern one's own life. One stops searching for peace; one is given peace (no.l.). In being controlled, one relinquishes the control of one's life to a benevolent authoritative power (no.4.) beyond one's control one obeys God and so can feel assured, more settled and relaxed. Parenthetically, it should be noted that a God construed to control one so completely is also to be feared lest He destroys one or relinquishes control over one's life. One can accept responsibility because one is no longer responsible (no.l.). The world in which one lives is one of being-controlled so that the possibility of losing control is obviated, control already having been lost.

There is an increased openness to fellow-man revealed by themes of being able to trust people, of having more friends, of being able to relate better to people, of being more accepting of all types of people, of being more aware of the needs of others and of having more love for people (no.2.).

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1This transition, at least for two group nembers (no. 28 XIII; l0: XVI; 9.) contained an element of doubt concerning their salvation, a fear that this feeling would not last. Such doubt is understandable since they as well as a substantial number of other group members explicitly referred to the poor quality of their relatedness to fellow man prior to their involvement in the Jesus movement (nos. 2,5 and 9.).

In a substantial number of cases nenbers of the Jesus movement made explicit statements concerning from where they had come. This prior mode of being in the world appears to be one almost antithetical to their present mode of being.

A number of group members made explicit references to a feeling of alienation and emptiness so that one finds statements that drugs were taken from an early age but still peace did not ensue (no. 5.), that tragedies were occurring and that they came from unhappy homes, felt left out of the family group and eventually ran away from home (no.9.). There was a feeling of boredom and emptiness; a feeling that there was something more to life than what they were experiencing and that nothing was able to satisfy them (no.l0.).

These descriptive statements of being are compatible with the explicit state ments made by a number of Jesus People that they were searching for the key to their existence in various Eastern and Western philosophies, in the Occult, in Astrology and meditation, but still there was a feeling that there was something missing from their lives (no.7.).

A substantial number of Jesus People appear to have been initially ambivalent about whether to join the Jesus movement and accept Christ. For example, one finds explicit descriptive statements that, although the movement was suppor ted, there was nevertheless a fear that the life style may be dull, that it may entail making sacrifices which one did not wish to do and that Christ was accepted only after much hesitation and inner-conflict (no.8.). Furthermore.

I33

1a small number of group members appear only to have joined the movement and accepted Christ as a last resort, at a point in time when their world had collapsed and everything gradually became worse until they accepted Christ (no.2l.).

It is interesting to note that many members of the group appear to have realized their aspirations. For example, from a mode of being empty and distant from fellow man and searching for a "filler", there is a change such that one has a purpose and direction (no.6.) given to one by that which changes one's life, and one becomes more open to fellow man (no.2.).

The core of the experience of becoming a Jesus Person is that of change; a change in one's relatedness to the world (no.l0.), to fellow man (nos. 2, 5 and 9.) and to temporality (nos. 1,3 and 14.).

One Jesus Person (no.3 III;l5.) explicitly stated that he felt as if the past did not exist, another that he felt like a new person (no.l XIII;9.), while a number of group members explicitly stated that they believed they now had an eternal life and thus no longer feared death (no.l4.). Further more, there is a descriptive statement to the effect that there is a realiza tion that one must make full use of the time available (no. 64 XV;l5.) and that much of the past is regretted (no.30 I;5.). The past is not seen as a building-block for the present rather there is a feeling of being a new person as if the past did not exist and, even when the past is acknowledged, it is regretted. Their temporal mode of being is such that, having died, they are re born essentially different. Time is now full and must be meaningfully used (no.64.). 0ne's life project is no longer characterized by its finitude but takes on a far greater significance of eternality (no.l4.) a change compatible with other relational changes.

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1Although the general feeling tone is one of change, a number of elements reveal that there may still be a feeling of dis ease in their relationship to the world and to fellow man. Thus one finds expressions that the world is a difficult place to live in (XI;l3.), a den of iniquity (XV;23.), there are decaying moral standards (IV;4.) and that people usually fail whatever they attempt (VI;4.) (nos. 25 and 26.). These elements, however, are not incompatible with the general feeling tone; an increased openness to fellow man does not necessarily imply that there may no longer be dis ease. On the contrary, it may be just this chronic feeling of dis ease that serves to keep individuals as group members. The compatibility of these elenents is further shown by the fact that those individuals who express a feeling of still being at dis ease (nos. 25 and 26.) also express a feeling of increased openness to others (no.2.) and a general feeling of relief (no.l.).

An interesting phenomenon is that, although a major tenet of the Jesus movement is that the Devil has a malevolent effect upon one's existence, only two group members (no.24 II;7 : VIII;l4.) made explicit reference to a belief in the existence of the Devil. This suggests that, despite the formal holding of this tenet by mebers of the Jesus movement, their relationship to the world is such that the Devil plays a minor role.

One group member explicitly stated that she came from a happy home (no.46 - VII;l.), which is incompatible with the other explicit descriptive state ments to the effect that life was anything but happy (no.9.). However, this same person explicitly states that she preferred being on her own (no.47 VII;2.), which suggests that she, like many other group members, now has an improved relationship with fellow man. This is confirmed by her descriptive statement that she became more open both to the world and to fellow man (no.2 VII;5,6 and 8.)

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1The remaining elements were found to be compatibie with the above Extended Description of the meaning of becoming and being a member of the Jesus movement.

PART II THE HARE KRISHNA DEVOTEES

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1HARE KRISHNA DEVOTEE I PROTOCOL SEVEN (VII) INTERVIEWEEI /(1 ) (Krishna)says in the (Bhagavad gita), He says that "one should try and learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master, enquire from him submissively, and render service unto him./(2) He can give you knowledge, because he has seen the truth,"/(3) and He says that, "when you have learned the truth, you will know that all living entities are but part of me that they are in me and they are mine." Its explained in (Prabhupada's Purport) that, when you have learned the truth, you will know that you are not this body, that you're spirit soul, that you're eternal and you're a spiritual fragment of (Krishna).

This is your constitutional position, this is reality. This body is not reality, it's just a temporary imposition of ignorance; (Narada Muni), a great saint (in our movement), said this body, this mind, is just a temporary imposition of ignorance, on the eternal blissful spirit soul./(4) So (Krishna Consciousness) is just returning to our spiritual nature, and that nature is -(SANSKRIT) or "servant of (Krishna, the servant of Krishna)" /(5) To learn the truth about the material world one has to approach a (spiritual master) to actually under stand./(6) The human being has four imperfections actually four qualities; imperfect senses, can be illusioned, forgetful, and propensity to cheat others.

So, like with these four restrictions, or qualities, we cannot have perfect knowledge, you know, like this is our darkness. This material condition of imperfect senses, the ability or tendency to be illusioned, forgetfulness, and propensity to cheat, this is like being in a dark room, and in a dark room, you do so many things that you wouldn't do if there was light in the room, you know. In a dark room, you can't see anything, you know, you go around bumping your head, you can't see. Unless someone turns the light on, you can't see, you don't know what's going on you're bewildered,/(7) and this material world

137 is a source of bewilderment and complexity to everyone, you know./(8) So when the (spiritual master), his worship -($AN5KRIT) "I offer my respect ful obeisances unto (my spiritual master) who came to me, while I was stand ing in the darkness of ignorance, and forced me to open my eyes towards that of transcendental knowledge." So, he's forcing us to open our eyes, looking towards ?nt knowledge, he's coming into our dark room and he's turning the light on./(9) Its not because we had any qualification. It's not because we thought the body was ignorant, or it's not that we had any knowledge previous to that. It's just simply causeless mercy./(10) You see, you'll find the same thing. You can ask l00 (devotees) and they all will say the same, although the grammar and sentence structure may be different. Actually that same thing is (Krishna) speaking, that's the (gargggara), "disciplic succession." what (Krishna) has said, we are simply repeating along with practical application, and we are getting realization./(11) So hearing from a (bona fide devotee) is not any different than speaking directly to (Krishna) that's the method of (disciplic succession)./(12) That is potent it has potency - others will become convinced,/(13) and you can see that the (devotees) are not personally motivated. If we were personally motivated, we could go to a dormitory and take your tape and get so many different opinions. Everyone will say "I think..." motivated by material desire to be number one. A (devotee) doesn't want to be number one. He wants (Krishna) to be recognized as number one, because he knows that will help suffering people./(14) we find out that what you feel is not right, so admit that your feelings, your sentiments, they're valueless. who is without sentiment, who is without mistakes, who is without illusion, who is without sensory inefficiency, who is without propensity to cheat? -that's (Krishna), so simply hear from (Krishna) and get perfect knowledge, see. A (devotee) will name the four defects, admit I am defective in what I can see. I know (Krishna) is not defective, so immediately we hear from (Krishna)./(15) See, some people may say that we are l38 without individuality No, actually this is our real individuality, as a servant of (Krishna), you see, but recognizing that we're not the Lords of material nature, we're not the masters of this world, we become the servants of this world, when we try to become the master./(16) (Krishna) says in the (Bhagavad qita SANSKRIT) "whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious principle, and an increase in religion, at that time I descend myself and I speak for myself. I tell them who I am, How I can be approached, What my name is." Truth is eternal, but sometimes that's the time when (Krishna) comes, and He speaks (Bhagavad Qita), you know./(17) These four defections, you have to admit you have them; we look at the Sun, you know, you look at the Sun with your eyes and it looks the size of a 20 cent piece, you know. So, we can understand from scientific authority that it is much greater than the earth, so what is the value of our senses if they're im perfect, you know. If someone turns the lights off, what is the value of our eyes imperfect senses, you know. (Prabhupada) gives another example of the ability to make mistakes. (Mahatma Ghandi) - he was warned by his personal servant "Don't go to (New Dheli), I've heard there's going to be trouble." So he went anyway, and he was killed, and because we have these ' imperfections, then we pose ourselves as an authority. We say "I think or I believe" because we can't even have perfect knowledge of this material world with these imperfect senses, what to speak of beyond the material world.

(18)Even if we have perfect senses, (Krishna) is (SANSKRIT) "He is beyond the senses." So your senses can be perfect in this material world, yet you can't understand (Krishna) by your own separate endeavour, even with perfect senses. Like they say, you have perfect vision well, what is perfect vision? It's suitable up to a certain distance, but beyond that you, 20/20 they say, is perfect vision, but that perfection is a relative perfection, it's depending on so many other circumstances./(19) S0 we are bewildered.

1we don't know who we are. we don't know where we come from./(20) The first (slokas in the Bhagavatam are SANSKRIT ) "Now is the time to enquire into the absolute truth, that from which everything comes," you know. The absolute truth is defined as that from which everything comes, the source of everything./(21) we don't know this, you know, we can't even understand this material world we're suffering, we don't know why we are suffering, you know. we are getting sick, we don't want to get sick, we get sick. We don't want to die, we die. we don't want to take birth, we take birth. we don't want to suffer, but these things are being forced T 2

1upon us, so it's a bewildering situation, we are bewildered./( 2) How can we get out of this misery? (Sukadeva Gosvami) was a great spiritual (master) under (disciplic succession), and he said that "I am such a fool. People are calling me learned, and I don't even know who I am, I don't even know who I am." This was why he approached (his spiritual master) that within the material world. "I am a renowned scholar," He knew many languages (Arab and Sanskrit) and . He was a tremendous scholar and philosopher.

And he said "I am such a fool that I accept this craze, and actually, I don't even know who I am." so, his position, before he was a spiritual (master), even though he was very learned, is one of a fool. Before a spiritual (master), one should always present himself as very foolish; no matter how learned one is, he should present himself as very foolish before a spiritual (master)/(23) So, in this condition, with these four imperfec tions, we are obviously bewildered. we can't even understand the depths of this material world, what to speak of anything beyond that, you know, so we're bewildered, everyone. Everyone has to admit that that actually they don't really know what's going on - they don't really know who they are, you know. They don't want to suffer, but they are forced to suffer.

So everyone is bewildered by the very nature of this material world./

140 giég material body means suffering. It means bewilderment, it means caught in our ignorance./(25) we go to the spiritual world with (Krishna), serving (Krishna), and before we can come to this material world, we have to forget, we have to forget that we are spirit soul; before we accept this position of birth, death, old age and disease, we have to forget our blissful nature, we have to forget our spiritual nature./(26) So (Krishna covers us that's maya - that's another energy of Krishna). He covers the living entities with knowledge pure consciousness, (pure mgya) He covers us with ignorance, so we can come and think we're God, otherwise how can we possibly think we are God. So (@335) covers the pure consciousness of the living entity - that I am the servant of (Krishna)/(27) He forgets that he is a spirit soul and he comes to this world,/(28) and then only by the causeless mercy of (Krishna) can he be delivered from this ignorance (this mgga)./ (29)0ne realizes after he has become a (devotee), of course, then he looks back on his life and realizes that before I was a (devotee), I was certainly wasting my time; you see, my life was being wasted. At the time, he might have thought "Oh, I am doing the best thing," but after becoming a (devotee) one looks back at material life as simply being a waste, and then he sees how other people are wasting, simply a waste./(30)(Krishna) becomes all attractive and one just simply goes towards (Krishna), becomes (Krishna Conscious),/ (3])and then when one looks back he feels "Oh, I was doing that are you kidding! I was doing this and that, Boy was I in (§gg£1)." The saying is, you cannot see (gggg) when you are in (Tggg)./(32) In fact, most people become (Krishna Conscious), not knowing that they are not (Krishna), think ing that they are (Krishna Conscious), they sort of approach (Krishna), you know, they feel "Well, there are different paths of approach ...",/(33)but anyway, what I was saying was that one cannot see (jZ§?§, if he is in (gggg). So when you're out of (gggg), then you can look back and see what the (gggg) was./(34) You will find the same with all the (devotees)./ l4l 35

1gt': compared to the Sun. when the Sun comes up, you see everything as it is. So, previously, you were in darkness, the darkness of material exis tence like I said, you do so many things in a dark room that you wouldn't do if there was light in the room, you know. So (the spiritual master) has come, and he has turned the light on. He's bringing the light of (Krishna Consciousness). He's bringing the light of spiritual awareness and self realization, about this body - I'm part of (Krishna). The finger is part of the body, and it has a function, to serve the body, you know, it has an obligation. The finger has no reality when it is cut off from the hand, you know, that finger is useless, there's no position. when a knife has fallen out of a machine, it has no position; only when it is connected with the hand, so like that, the finger has an obligation to serve the body, so our real obligation, our real nature, our spiritual nature is to serve (Krishna), glorify (Krishna)./(36) Before I becane a (devotee), I had no form of religiosity, not in the true sense./(37) (Krishna says, the spirit ual master has told us that), one who has been in his previous life a (iggf) at some time in the past, in a previous life, who is not successful in completing perfection of (the yoga system), he again gets an opportunity, and he naturally begins to follow the four principles; no eating meat, fish or eggs, no intoxication, no illicit sex, and a refraining from mental specula tion./(38) So you'll find that many (devotees), not all of them, but many of the (devotees), followed these four principles to some degree, to some extent that was their religious credit, that they became vegetarian, they put down intoxication, they became celibate, and they turned towards an authority, which means they gave up speculation./(39) It was very difficult to find authority in books, you know, so most of us read everything from Kahlil Gibran to Hermann Hesse, to ... Oh so many books, so called spiritual philosophies./(40) So doing that means giving up speculation, trying to

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1find an authority, some one who knows, you can Just go and hear from them and get help./(41) So many (devotees) did follow these four principles that is their religious credit./(42) And then (Krishna) says that four types of pious men they surrender, and one becomes a (devotee), sometimes out of distress. In other words, "I can't get any satisfaction". A person feels that "I am involved with women, I am involved with social life, I am involved with the theatre, I am involved with work, yet I am still not getting any satisfaction just frustration." So out of frustration and distress, one cones to (Krishna). One who is in search of wealth, a pious man, you don't find any (devotees in the Hare Krishna movement) who are in search of wealth, but you find ... a story of the past. (Guru Maharaj, a King), he comes to (Krishna) ... The best one is a man in search of knowledge. A man in search of knowledge, (Krishna) says he is most dear - he is the best of all the four men who come. A man who is searching after knowledge of the absolute he is best of the most highly situated./(43) So what we can say, before we become a (devotee), is not so much "Oh, I was in ignorance", but that the propensity to know the truth remains unfulfilled, and they're driven continuously in search of knowledge. The propensity to know what has gone wrong. It is there in the human being, and it is exhibited that no-one has forced us to education; education has been cultured over the years. The propensity to achieve fulfilment of knowledge is there,/(44) but thisis mundan» knowledge, this is the point. The only fulfilling knowledge is that of the absolute /(45) when one takes to ' ' ), if l5 "Qt due t0 . (Krishna Consciousness some psychological motive, but actually, it says in the scriptures, that by the mercy of God (one finds guru; by the causeless mercy of God, one finds a spiritual master, and then by the mercy of the spiritual master, one finds Edd). There is no qualification, no motivation, it is just simply by the causeless mercy of God (Krishna Consciousness is the gift of Krishna)./

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1(46) we rebelled against (Krishna), we've chosen to forget (Krishna),/(47) but (Krishna) is so kind that He doesn't forget us, He is always anxious to have us come back home and enjoy a life of eternal happiness./(48) And for this, we can never repay Him it's nothing we've done to deserve this.

Mercy means kindness. If someone is kind to you, that means you receive something you don't deserve the (prasadam of Krishna, the mercy of Krishna, this food, this chanting). This is the mercy of (Krishna), it is something we don't deserve./(49) we've chosen to forget (Krishna), but He is so merci ful./(50) So, it's not a matter of some psychological motive behind some frustration with the material world or some "cop out" or something like that.

It's by the causeless mercy of (Krishna) that we've found (the guru),/(51) and now we are trying to distribute that./(52) So, it is only after becoming a (devotee) that we see that we were bewildered, you know. A person is eating sugar, thinks that this is very nice, then only after he has tasted sweet rice and Halavah does he go "My Heavens, I was eating sugar mixed with dirtl" So while he is eating sugar mixed with dirt, he doesn't know it; later he can understand. (Prabhupada) gives another example of that; a man is drunk and he's intoxicated and he's wandering around the town, and he takes his hand, and shoves it through the window, and smashes it, you know, and looks at it, all bleeding. So, he's intoxicated, he doesn't feel it.

He just takes out his handkerchief and he wraps it up, he doesn't feel it.

He goes home. But when he goes home, he wakes up the next morning, it's infected, there's so much pain. So that's actually what some of the (devotees) leave in the beginning. They take to ( ' ' ), and they become Krishna Consciousness sobered up. They begin to perceive what a disgusting place this mind is, "what a nonsense bunch of garbage is in my mind, what a nonsense life I've been living." He begins to sober up, to see actually things as they are, you know./(53) In the beginning, some (devotees), when they begin to sober l44

up, they think that anxiety is caused by being able to perceive the misery in the material world is (Krishna Consciousness). But actually, they're just sobering up they're able to perceive /(54) they're becoming human beings. A human being is one who can perceive the misery of the material world, has the intelligence to recognize suffering. In the (Bhagavad gita), it says one who recognizes suffering, he is intelligent. If they don't recognize the suffering, they are less than dogs./(55) So (Prabhupada), what is he doing? He is elevating us to a position of being human beings; of being able to see things as they are, you know, being able to see things as they are. So they don't appreciate the miseries of this material world./(56) You will also find that the (devotees) saw nothing in the world that matched (the Hare Krishna movement), as far as they were concerned. It provided everything they wanted - association with good people, work achievement, sufficient material security was provided, everything, higher education, opportunity to travel the world. So many wonderful spiritual and material opportunities that no one else was offering. No~one else offers the life as pleasant as we offer it. We come here and get provided with clothes, everything. Look, there is this music (a tape of the New Delhi kirtdns was being listened to), all these paintings. There's art and there's music. So actually, the (devotees) didn't find anything as attractive as (Krishna)./(57) This, you should emphasize./(58) (Krishna) is all attractive, most beautiful, not because there's frustration. My Dad had money "scoots galoo". I wasn't so frustrated. I was just more attracted to the bliss. This is nice, (Krishna) is beautiful, this philosophy is right on./(59) Most of the (devotees) had made it l00% materially. They were accepted, they were in, they were travelling, many of us have travelled round the world, all through India, Asia, Europe, all over America, Central America, Mexico, Canada./(60) I wasn't rejected from school. I took a B.A. in philosophy from U.C.L.A./

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1(61) Life was wonderful in that way. In fact, sometimes, you had more friends than you knew what to do with. So, it wasn't lacking everyone usually had everything, but at the same time, they experienced that everything was right, I've been accepted, yet something was lacking. I'm still not satisfied /(62) and then (Krishna) fills the gap, and one becomes a (devotee); (Krishna's) like a magnet. we come because (Krishna) is most attractive.

There's no harder person than (Krishna). You may be willing to eat sugar and sand, but when I give you nice milk, then inmediately you will throw up the sand and sugar. So, in the same way, we are finding that there is no greater pleasure, than pleasure in (Krishna Consciousness)./(63) Many of the (devotees) have an aversion in the beginning, but grow to like this all this is (Krishna), the books are (Krishna), the (temple is Krishna), the chair is (Krishna), the food is (Krishna), the (prasadam), it's all absolute nature in (Krishna)./@4)The pleasure exceeds any material pleasure./ (65) You can't draw a comparison between this (movement) and any religion - you know religion means faith, belief, but this movement is (sanatana dhanna) it is reinstatement of the living entities in their eternal constitutional position as servants of God, you know./(66) Like I said, truth is eternal, but sometimes it is covered by ignorance, and whenever there is a rise in religion,(Krishna) comes, and he re establishes that (eumatana dhanna)./(67) So, we're looking at (Krishna Consciousness) with a limited view, with a 20th Century perspective, and trying to fit it in. Actually it's much greater than this. (Krishna Consciousness) is eternal,/(68)and "whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practices and increase in relig ion, I descend myself and X re-establish the religious principles."/(69) This is the meaning of the material world. This is the whole purpose of the material world, for us to have the opportunity to go back home, back to God(h§ad). This is why (Krishna) gives us this material world /(70) we'd rather rebel against (Krishna). we want to imitate (Krishna) and we

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1want to enjoy as God, you know. We can't,so (Krishna) gives us this false situation, so we can ultimately become frustrated. This is the purpose of the material world./(71) Its not just some religion, it's not just some contemporary thing, it's,you know,(§£H2£Q?§_iZ2Hml) it's not some faith.

You see, (Krishna) says in (Bhagavad gita SANSKRIT) means "having seen, you can only actually be self controlled, you can actually only give up these material things, when you have acquired knowledge or realized knowledge".

If it was simply book knowledge, it was simply academic knowledge, then you would be way~laid by so many doubts, by so many contradictions, but what this movement is concerned with, is realization, you know. It says in the (Bhagavad gita), this is the King of Knowledge, the most secret of all secrets, because it gives direct perception of the self by realization./(72) See, its so nice, because (Krishna) is there and (Krishna) gives that auto matically to one who is saturated with the drive for devotional service - (SANSKRIT) "To those who worship me with love, always engaging in my devotional service, I give them the understanding by which they can come to ne". It's not some mental platform./(73) Its actually a purified conscious ness. It's not some belief, you know./(74) One can only give up these lesser things, if one has - (SANSKRIT) - if one has "actually experienced, having seen the Supreme, one gives up these lesser things" Having experienced, one gives up these lesser things./(75) So in the beginning, (Prabhupada) says, its not like you (chant Hare Krishna, Krishna) manifests in front of you, but if I tell you how to get to Durban. If I tell you to go l5 miles south, you turn left, you go 25 miles east, you turn right again, then you go another 60 miles this way, that way, like that, and so maybe in the beginning, you do?t take to my instructions so much because you don't have that much faith in me, because you don't know who I am, but you start on that path, and you follow my first instruction, you go l5 miles l47 south and you turn left and come to a sign that says 'Durban'. So you say "Oh, I'm on the right path, he must have been right". So you pursue that path with all the more eagerness, like that. So this is with (ghgg; §iQg_?g§g_§[i§hgg) /(76) The first symptom is the mind becomes satisfied, you know. You become satisfied, not by some mental platform, but actually you experience the satisfaction, peace, happiness, joy. The symptoms, you know./(77) You don't exactly realize (Krishna) immediately, but there's some symptoms. Just like you're trying to get to Durban, and you see a sign 'Durban' so you go a little bit further and you see another sign.

"Oh I might be on the right path", you know, as you see these indications./(78) So, similarly for the path of spiritual realization, one of the symptoms is one becomes detached, when one gets (igggg), when one gets a little bit of knowledge, one becomes detached, you know. There's no meaning to knowledge if one doesn't become detached, because one who understands this material world knows it to be like a big dream. It's just simply a dream. Like I said this morning, these so called conditions that are appearing before us, like our bodily self, our mother, our so called mother, our so called father, our so called country, so called conditions that are appearing before us.

This is what we are identifying with. we are misidentifying these, as the real conditions of life. That was the one thing with (Bhagavad Qita -Arjuna) said, "No, I will not fight, I do not wish to kill my so called brother, my so called father, I do wish to kill my so called grandfather." He was choos ing to act on the bodily platform neglecting his eternal spiritual relation ship with (Krishna) the relationship of the soul and the supersoul. (Krishna) was saying "Fighti" but he was saying "No!" because he was attached to his relations./(79) You see, it's realization./(80) In the beginning it's not exactly that we realize (Krishna), but there's symptoms. First symptom is joy, your mind becomes completely pacified, completely happy./(81) I think

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that is about al1 I can say about (Krishna Consciousness); why don't you experience yourself? you wiH never find out the peace it brings unless you yourself surrender to (Krishna)./ INTERVIEWER: Yes, I think I will have to surrender to (Krishna), but first I think I want to make sure, before I decide final1y./ INTERVIEWEE: /(82) I guarantee you will be total'ly fulfi1'led./ INTERVIEWER: wel1, thank you (Prabhu), for the interesting talk.

INTERVIEWEE: /(83) Oh, don't mention it. It was (Krishna) speaking anyway, as I said./

149 INFORMATIONAL QUESTIONNAIRE PROTOCOL SEVEN (VII) NAME: _(_HL\B§_5B1§?@I§_Q§yQI§§_) ____ __ um; ________________________ __ (or initials if preferred) Please write down your experience of the interview which you have just had.

You could, for example, state your attitude and feelings toward the inter viewer and the interview situation, as well as any other feelings you have toward the situation you have just been in.

- oooOooo Krsna says in Bagavad gita (sic) "My devotees derive great bliss and satis faction conversing and enlightening one another about me." The only feelings I had conversing about K.C. was (sic) bliss and satisfaction.

The spiritual master is known as the mercy incarnation of God. Mercy is causeless. By the causless (sic) mercy of God one finds a bona fide guru and by the causeless mercy of guru one finds God. Krishna Consciousness is the matchless gift of God. You {referring to the researcher} want to pin down the reason for one who takes to K.C. as something phyological (sic) like unhappy childhood or parents who beat them. To return to our spiritual awareness is the desire of God. God is like a loving father who only wants happiness for his sons. So He comes Himself or sends His rep. to teach us how to come back home back to Godhead.

Hare Krsna oo00o0o -

150 LIST OF NATURAL MEANING UNITS HARE KRISHNA DEVOTEE PROTOCOL SEVEN (VII) R = REPETITION I = IRRELEVANT = Truth is obtained by humbly approaching and serving a spiritual master.

(see 5,8,22,35 and 55.) = Having seen the truth, the spiritual master is able to pass on knowledge.

(see 35 and 55.) = The truth is that you are eternal blissful spirit, being part of Krishna, rather than being body and mind which are temporary and ignorant imposi tions. (see 24,35,55 and 67.) = Krishna Consciousness implies a return to our spiritual nature which means serving God. (see l5,25,35 and 55.) = in erder-to learn about the material world one must approach a spirituai master. (R) (see l,8,22,35 and 55.) = We are bewildered because we have imperfect senses. (see l4,l7,l9,2l,23 and and 26.) = This material world is a source of complexity and bewilderment for everyone.

= ¥he spiritual maseer enlightens us. (R) (see l,5,22,35 and 55.) = We are enlightened through God's mercy (rather than because of anything we have particularly done). (see 28,45,50 and 72.) = All the devotees will present the same theme beeause they-are repeating what-Krishna has said and beeause they are all experieneing this. (I) (see ll and 34.) = Hearing Prem a genuine devotee is the same as hearing from Krishna. (R) - (see l0 and 34.) = This phenomenon (see 10 and ll.) gives the devotee's message potency and so will convince others. (I) (see l0 and ll.) = Devotees are not self motivated but recognise the control of God, knowing that their devotion will alleviate the suffering of others. (see l5.)

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1= we should 1isten on1y to Krishna (who is perfect) since our senses are imperfect and valueless. (see 6,17,19,21 and 23.) = We have not 10st our individuality as our individuality is to serve God, reeegnising thet we-are not masters of this material werld. (R) (see 4,13,25,35 and 55.) = Krishna c1aims that when there is a dec1ine in religious principles but an increase in religious faith, then He re asserts Himself, (see 66 and 68).

= Gar senses are imperfeet-and se are valueless fer providing knewledge-of this material world; (R) (see 6,14,19,21 and 23.) = Even with perfect senses we would not be able to comprehend Krishna by our own endeavour since He transcends our senses. (see 21 and 23.) = He ere bewi1dered nat knowing wha we are er where we-eeme from. (R) (see 6,14 and 17.) - (we are 10st and confusedJ = Now is the time to inquire into the truth, the source of everything.

= He are bewildered 4n-this material-wer1d-where things are forced upon us.

(R) (see 6,14,17,18,23 and 26.) = He are able to eseape-this misery by humbly appreaehing a-spivitae} master.

(R) (see 1,5 and 8.) = He are bewi1dered by these imperfections and by the material werld. (R) - (see 6,14,17,18 and 21.) = This material body means suffering, bewi1derment and ignorance. (see 3.) = we find ourselves in this material wor1d because we have forgotten our own spiritual nature. (see 4,15 and Z5.) = we think that we are God because Krishna has covered us in maya. (see 6, 21 and 70.) = Ne find ourselves in this matouial world because we have forgotten our own spiritual nature. (R) (see 25.) = He can an4y be-delivered frem this igneranee by the-eauseless merey ef Krishna. (R) (see 9,45,50 and 72.)

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1In retrospect I can see that prior to becoming a devotee my life was being wasted although at that time I did not feel this. (see 3l,32,33

1and 52.) One is attracted to Krishna. (see 58,62 and 64.) 9nly in retrospeet-ean one-see what one was really doing. (R) (see 29, 32,33 and 52.) Most people become Krishna-eenseious thinking that they are already Krishnu-Ganseieus. (R) - (see 29,3l,33 and 52.) 9ne ean enly see that ene is in illusien enee ene is eut ef illusion.

(R) (see 29,3l,32 and 52.) ¥ou will find this to be the some for~ail the devotees. (R) (see 10.) §t is only when we are enlightened by-the spiritual master that we see things-os they really are; inr:that our true nature is spiritual and is to serve Krishna. (R) (see l,2,3,4,5,8 and l5.) I was not formally religious before I became a devotee.

A person will spontaneously adopt religions principles in this life if his spiritual endeaveurs in his previous life were not successful. (I) Many devotees adopted religious principles prior to joining the movement.

(see 41.) It was difficult to find an authority in books and most of us read many books.

Adopting religious principles means to give up speculation and to attempt to find an authority who can help.

Hany-devetees followed religiaus principles prior to éeining the movement.

(R) (see 38.) Krishna states-that-ef the-four types of men whe~beeeme Krishna Genseieus, these-who are searehingrfer knowledge are-the best. (I) The propensity to know the truth remained unfulfilled prior to becoming a devotee.

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1The only fulfilling knowledge is that of the absolute.

Gne beeemes-Krishna-Gonseieus through the merey ef Krishna ratheP-than beeause of any psychological-metive. (R) (see 9.28.50 and 72.) We have freely chosen to rebel against against Krishna. (see 49.) Krishna does not forget us and wants us to be eternally happy. (see 49.) we do not deserve Krishna's kindness.

He-have-ehosen te Forget Krishna-but He is very merciful. (R) (see 46

1and 47.) He have beeeme-Krishna-Genseious shreugh-the mercy of Kr#shna-rather than beeause ef seme-psyeholeg+eal-frustration. (R) (see 9,28,45 and 72 ) we wish to proselytise.

Qne only sees-that-ene was bewildered aiter becoming a-devetee. (R) (see 29,3l,32 and 33.) Initially, many devotees become anxious because they are able to percieve misery in the world and this is reality. (see 55.) Devotees become truly human because they are able to perceive suffering.

(see 55.) Prabhupada (their spiritual muster) elevates-us te the position e¥-be+ng human-and being able te see things as they really are. (R) (see l,2,3

14,5,8,l5,53 and 54.) Both spiritually and materially there is nothing to match the movement.

¥his-(see-56=) is-impertant. (I) Krishna and the-asseeiated philesephy-is mast attraetive. (R) (see 30 62 and 64.) Hest-af the devotees were materially satisfied. (R) (see 6l.) I was not rejected from school.

we had everything we wanted and yet there was an emptiness - a lack of satisfaction. (see 59.) Being most attractive, Krishna is fulfilling He is like a magnet.

(see 30,58 and 64.)

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1Many of the devotees have an initial aversion to this life style but grow to like it.

The pleasure exeeeds any material-pleasure. (R) (see 30,58 and 62.)T The movement cannot be compared to any faith or belief because it is a life style. (see 7l,73 and 79.) T4uni»:H>4amqw¥L4uuiwdwv it H;4uq~§uud4#utJQ~H?uuaqaasserts J¥hmuaLf. (R) (see 16,67 and 68.) Krishna Genseieusness is eternal although we have a-twentieth eentury perspective of it. (I) (see 3 and 66.) As4m?igious4w?nciphus4k?iaaauuiau?dqious4meL?sF=HKnwase&r4Q?shna re=estabLhdum>4qkMghwu;4whuzqakz (R) - (see 16 and 66.) The purpose of this material world is for us to have an opportunity to return to Godhead.

In this false situation we believe that we are in control but ultimately we become frustrated. (see 26.) Krishna Eonseiousness is not just a faith; not just a-theoretieal know ledge;-but-is an experiential knowledge. (R) (see 65,73 and 79.) This experientiai-knowledge-comes-automaticaliy to these who serve Krishna. (R) (see 9,28,45 and 50.) It is not-some belief but 45 purified eenseieusness. (R) (see 65,71,73 and 79.) Only after having experienced the Supreme, can one give up lesser attachments. (see 78.) Becoming Krishna Conscious is a gradual process with the devotee becoming increasingly eager. (see 77 and 80.) One begins to experience satisfaction, peace, happiness and joy.

One does not realize Krishna Consciousness immediately but there are symptoms. (R) - (see 75 and 80.) = Spirituai realization entails detachment from the conditions and relationships to which we were previously attached. (see 74.) = This( see 78¢)isexperientir? know1edge. (R) (see 65,71 and 73.) = One-does-not realize Krishna imediately but there are symptoms the first oi whieh is joy. (R) (see 75 and 77.) through to 83 = Termination of interview.

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1CONSTITUENT PROFILE HARE KRISHNA DEVOTEE PROTOCOL SEVEN - (VIIL

By hunbly approaching and serving a spiritual master who has seen the Truth, you begin gradually to realize that you are neither mind nor body, both of which are temporary impositions of ignorance, suffering and bewilderment. Rather, you are part of an incomprehensible Krishna and hence are an eternal blissful spirit soul. we are all bewildered by the complexity and control of the material world as well as by the imperfection of our senses. We find ourselves in this material world because we have forgotten our own spiritual nature. Krishna Consciousness is a return to our true nature - a nature which is spiritual and which serves God. This return is facilitated by God's mercy as we do not deserve Krishna's kind ness - rather than by any psychological motive, although it is our own unique individuality which prompts us to serve God. The devotees are not self-motivated but recognise the control of God, knowing that their devo tion will alleviate the suffering of others. Only in retrospect can one appreciate that one's life was being wasted and, although I was not formally religious prior to joining the movement, I nevertheless, like many devotees, had adopted religious principles. This implied giving up speculation and attempting to find a personal and living authority who could guide my spirit ual growth. Prior to becoming a devotee the propensity to fulfil the quest for spiritual knowledge remained unfulfilled, and the only fulfilling know ledge is that of the Absolute. Although we choose to rebel against God, He nevertheless still wishes us to be happy and this is our message. Further more, Krishna re asserts Himself whenever religious principles are suppressed Many devotees initially become anxious because they begin to perceive the misery that really does exist in the material world and this perception is an indication that they are becoming truly human. Initially many devotees

157 have an aversion to this life style, which cannot be compared to any belief or faith precisely because it is a life-style, but they never theless gradually grow to like it since both spiritually and materially there is nothing to match the movement. Although I had everything that I wanted, there was still an emptiness which only Krishna could fill since He is most attractive and draws one like a magnet. Being a devotee one experiences actual happiness, satisfaction, peace and joy. Such spiritual realization involves a detachment from all prior conditions and relation ships and having experienced the Supreme this is no hardship since the purpose of this material world is to afford us the opportunity to return to Godhead rather than to live falsely and hence become frustrated.

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SECOND ORDER PROFILE HARE KRISHNA DEVOTEE PROTOCOL SEVEN (Vlll

Felt bewildered and controlled by the material world we are in this world because we have forgotten our own spiritual nature.

Feels that God who is merciful - is in control.

Believes that we should serve God this is prompted by our unique individuality and that devotion to God will alleviate the suffering of others.

Retrospectively feels that his life was being wasted.

Prior to joining the movement he was not formally religious.

Previously led a disciplined religiously inclined life-style.

Feels that prior to joining the movement he had all the material things that he could wish for.

Felt empty desire for spiritual knowledge remained unfulfilled.

Although initial aversion to life style, now feels satisfied feels at peace.

Feels that his past must be given up.

Feels that material attachments must be given up not difficult after having experienced the Supreme who draws one like a magnet.

Although the material world is a place of misery and frustration its purpose is to afford us the opportunity of returning to God.

l59 HARE KRISHNA DEVOTEE PROTOCOL TWELVE - [XIII INTERVIEWEE: /(1) wen, if 1 have to recall all the events, then 1

1must recall everything since the beginning of my life. But basically I can generalize and say that for much of the latter half of my life, as it stands now, 25 years or so, from the age of l3 or l4, I always had a strong sense of the coldness of material life, you know./(2) In fact, I could perceive that, generally speaking, no one knew how to relate with anyone else, you know that everyone related with every one else from their own pre conceived view, you know, if you like./(3) There were always so many restrictions, one class of men doesn't like to associate with another class of men, you know. This is not only between races as it would be here in this country, but also social divisions. I became very sensitive to social divisions you know, the differences in people./(4)1 found it difficult to reconcile these diff erences when I had a sense that actually everyone was equal everyone was the same, see. Essentially everyone was on the same platform, you see. I always had that feeling, but I couldn't reconcile that with the varieties that I saw, you see. In other words, I was constantly driven to make distinctions, in so many ways, you know,/(5) and also I felt discriminated against in so many ways, you know, in so many facets of my everyday life, you know. So I was always sensitive, you might say/(6) I was religiously sensitive too. From being very young, I always had a feeling that there was a God./(7) My parents were Catholic. Actually they didn't attend church activities themselves, a kind of contradictory thing./(8) I was the alter boy. I used to serve Holy water and all that.

You know, I always had a feeling for God if you know what I mean; I had

160 no idea who God was, or the real meaning of God, as I do now actually, but I always had a feeling for God. In other words, I had a strong sense of moral values, if you like. I was always reluctant to do anything that I thought was bad, you know./(9) So I kind of went through the same changes that everyone does, I suppose. Of course, everyone within our Western framework, you know, from the age of l2, you're mixing with the girls, and stuff like that, you know./(10) At school, I wasn't being successful, you know. I found that there was nothing really that I was striving to attain in this world, you know. So the thought of making so much sacrifice, you know, to achieve something which, already, I was seeing in the category of being material, you know. I couldn't actually see the value of that, so I was never actually diligent in my school work, you know; I kind of neglec ted it, you know, even though I was intelligent. Somehow, I always scraped through the exans and stuff like that, you know. I really had no taste for it, you know, because I couldn't see where it was taking me, you know./(11) This feeling became fully developed later on actually, but even early in secondary school/(12) I went to boarding school, you know, a direct grant public school. I was actually a day-boy, but there were boarders, you know.

It was run by (the Christian Brothers; it was a Catholic sect of teaching brothers, you know./(13) But actually I wasn't very into them at all, you know. In fact, I always found a conflict between my own feelings, you know, for God, and what they represented to be God, or Godly life, you know. These were two different things altogether because, as I say), I was kind of sensi tive, and these people, generally speaking, they were very insensitive, you know, you know. Their values were actually completely materialistic as far as I could see, you know./(14) So, at school, I wasn't very successful in that sense. As far as I was concerned, it didn't matter, but in their eyes I was unsuccessful, you know what I mean - (laughs)./(15) After I entered 6th form, that's when I started to feel myself as an independent personality, l6l you know. Before that, you're still bound up by feelings for your parents, family, you know. I think that by that age, everyone begins to kind of feel themselves as being a separate individual, and, of course, their view of what is valuable, and what is not valuable, in other words, their whole conception of values, sometimes we see that you begin to develop different values from your parents, you know./(16) That was l968, T969 the whole 1960's subculture was having a strong influence, even among the school kids, you know. Everyone was saying "You can't smoke pot" and all those things./(17) I could see innediately there was a difference of standards, you know. My parents, they were condoning the drinking of alcohol./(18) This is just an example I'm giving you. It's not actually sonething that hung me up too much, you know./(]9)V In other words, I'm saying they're condoning the drinking of alcohol, but they'recondemning the smoking of marijuana, you know./(20) Actually, both should be condemned. This is my present belief,/(21) but at that time, I could only see that it's just a matter of your viewpoint, you know, having no standard to go by. This is actually the philosophy that seems to have evolved. You know, everyone is entitled to do their own things, you know what I mean./(22) I was seeing that my values didn't always conform to my parents' values and standards. So, in that way, we began developing a different set of values, you know./(23) Around that time, I had my first real involvement with a girl, you know, and of course, for everyone, that's a kind of changing point in their lives, you know./(24) I wasn't promiscuous, or anything like that. In my younger days, I would asosciate with people who were promiscuous, but I never had any attraction for them. I was kind of disgusted by it, you know./(25) Actually its interesting. There's a verse from Henry IV part I, which I remember quoting to my brothers who were criticising me for my bad association because I had a tendency to hang around with all the boys who were already working, you know, whereas when

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I was going to school, I was mixing with the more intelligent class, so to speak./(26) Actually my attraction was more for the boys who were already working and independent in their ways, even though they may have been more worldly or degraded, so to speak, you know./(27) Often my parents would criticize, "why are you hanging around with these people?"you know, "Why don't you mix with the boys at school?" you know, whereas generally the boys at school would all hang together, even when they were outside of school./(28) Of course, I was also part of that group, but I found that I was drawn between two groups, you know. I had an attraction for these other boys, you know, but sometimes, their activities were kind of de graded, you know, and I always felt a distaste./(29) So this verse from Henry IV, part I, it's where Hal, Hal was the Prince, you know, he was heir to the throne, but as yet his father was still alive. Everybody was looking to him to be a perfect example of law and order, but rather, he was hanging around with Falstaff and his friends they were just hanging around in towers and drinking, you know; so, I remember I used to picture myself as a kind of Hal, you know. At one point, Hal explains his position by saying, "I know you all, but will a while uphold the unyoked humor of your idleness yet herein I'll imitate the Sun, who doth permit the base contagious cloud, to smother up his beauty from the earth, so that when he please again to be himself, being, he may be more wondered at", you know.

So what he is saying is "well, I hang around with these people, but I see where they're at, you know, my heart isn't in it." You see what I mean.

"I see the folly of their ways - Ultimately, this isn't my idea of a perfect existence."/(30) Otherwise I always maintained a progressive kind of attitude I never settled for any kind of particular situation, you know. Like some people, they identify with a situation, a set of friends and that's that, you know. They identify with their job I am this, I am that, you know. They identify with certain goals, you know, but I could never find myself doing

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1that, therefore I was able to mix freely with different people, you know, who had various standards of behaviour, you know, cultural standards also, you know./(31) I found that, this way, I began to get different views, different angles of vision, and I could see that actually none was any better than the other, you know; they were just relative conditions. This was the kind of feeling that was developing, you know,/(32) and so justifi cation for my kind of bad association, if you like, was that, later on, maybe you'll see something which is better than this, you see, or this will result in you valuing more what I become at a later date, you see./(33) Of course, even now, my values differ from my parents' values radically now, of course, but I consider that I've fulfilled that promise, you know, and actually, more and more, they're beginning to realize too that, if one is actually intelligent, what more can he ask for than a son who's practising these principles of Godly life. I mean, what is the purpose of life, actually, you know? Anyway, this is the kind of thinking I had;/(34) I've had a chance to associate with these different people, and I began to see that there was no perfect situation, you know, but my parents claimed I should associate with scholarly friends, but actually in their association, I didn't feel satisfied or complete, you know, and I could see so many faults in them also, you know. At the same time, I didn't feel perfectly satisfied in the association of the other more worldly type of people, you know. So, more and more, I was feeling that whatever situation one is in, in this material world, you know, he won't be satisfied. So this type of feeling was developing, you know,/(35) and, as I say, there was this relation ship I had with this girl, and actually I became very attached very emotion ally involved, you know, because, of course, one always has to have some values and some standards, you know, and many of the things I saw in that girl, at that time, they kind of reflected those values and standards, you

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1you know, and things which I wanted to develop and become. So our relation ship becane very strong./(36) Also, there was strong sexual involvement, which completely disturbed my emotions, if you know what I mean, or made me very emotionally attached,/(37) so that eventually, when we both went different ways, this had quite a devastating effect on us, even though it was a mutual decision. we saw that our relationship had reached a point of being non~progressive in every way, you know./(38) It actually became degraded to a gross sexual kind of thing, you know./(39) we were both young at the time, I think I was about l8. The whole idea of becoming married and settling down was frightening, you know. In many ways, it was frightening, you know, and it just seemed like, you know, I wasn't even finished my education, the whole idea just seemed out of the question, you know; even though we were pretty much attached, you know, it just didn't happen that way./(40) So,after that I kind of retreated. It's like once bitten, twice shy. I saw the kind of pitfalls of attachment, especially attachment to a female, you know. The emotional involvement I could see that it was actually worthless, you know. Emotional involvement actually only resulted in pain, you know./(41) I also felt that, in that relationship, I lost a lot of my progressive thinking, you know, and creativity, you know, like I became so much absorbed in sensual activity that any higher pursuit, any kind of more philosophical or subtler views, they were automatically just left aside, you know. It became very gross, you know./(42) I understand actually philosophically why that happened now, you see,/(43) and I can always refer to that experience as being my own personal example, you know./(44) After that, I kind of, at the same time, I was feeling the pain of attachment, I also knew that actually the whole relationship had ended, you know. There was no value in taking it up again, so I had to progress from that point onwards, even though the pain of feeling attached was there. I also began to value my independence

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1once again, and began to be a little creative in my thinking once again.

In other words, I began to throw away the old values and started looking for new values or goals, you know, rather than looking for sex life, you know (laughs) I started to want something more, you see./(45) So at that time, I got into LSD, you know. I remember my first trip; it was kind of shattering, you know. It was shattering. I was a little bit stand offish, because I kind of had an understanding from a distance that, actually, you know, to take LSD neant to change your consciousness, you know, and I didn't know whether I was prepared to change my consciousness, you know./(46) This is actually the fear of everyone established in the material world. They've established themselves in a certain view of things, you know, and they're afraid of being exposed to something new or different, you know, which might contradict their own view, or might render it invalid, you know./(47) But anyway, everyone was doing it so (laughs) I did. I took LSD./(48) Actually, my whole view of the LSD experience was one of religious experience, you know. From the very beginning, I looked for a religious experience; my whole mental attitude towards it was one of research into what is actually God, whereas other people, they just go into it for the colours, or some sensual trip, you know. My trips were always more on the mental platform. I wasn't so much into enjoying my new sensual awareness, you know. I was kind of researching, "Well, why am I here? you know" this question has always been there, as far as I am concerned, you know. Hhat is the purpose of life? Why is there so much pain in our personal relationships? Why actually is it so difficult to live in peace and harmony? you know, even though this whole conception of living in peace and harmony was very much enphasized at that time, especially./(49) Of course, I could practically see that no one was able to do it, you know. Even within the so called subculture, the hippie culture, there was classifications and hierarchies, you know. There were the Big Heads and the Little Heads (laughs) Most of the whole thing seemed unobtainable, practically,/(50) but I felt certain

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1that it could be obtained, that there was a platform of universal brother hood, of universal consciousness, you know, of universal association, equality, you know./(51) So I was looking into these things. I remember, a lot of my trips I took in churches and stuff like that, you know. Actually my first trip I took in a church also./(52) So, I found it rather intense.

It kind of throws away your values, you know. well, this is my experience, and from my reading also, I see that basically it's everyone's experience.

Your consciousness is raised, you see things from a new perspective, you know. You see things more in relative terms, you know that there's no absolute whereas someone who's accepted a particular way of life, they consider that as a kind of absolute, you know. A standard they've estab lished for themselves a standard you know - and up to that time, I'd accepted so many standards, which were given to me by my parents by general society but then I found by my experience with LSD, that a lot of these things, which were supposed to be valuable, you know, took on a new form, you know. A new appearance, and they didn't seem to be so valuable or as absolutely real as they previously had,you know. You see, I had begun to accept a more relative state of values; in other words, a kind of liberal ity, in which anything goes, you know. Of course, this whole "Do your own thing" philosophy became prominent with the LSD experience, you know that there's actually nothing which is real, there's nothing to get hung up about you know. well, whatever you think is real, is real, you know./(53) So I went through that stage, but it kind of results in a confusion, you know, because everyone is looking for a framework, if you like you're always talking about frameworks in which to work and identify themselves, you know. we're looking for an identity, so we identify ourselves in terms of a framework, if you like./(54) Within the western culture, I was identify ing myself with the Western culture and values, you know, whereas someone born in India was maybe identifying themselves with their particular cultural

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framework, if you like. But I began to see that, to identify myself in terms of things which I see, you know, or experience, you know, is actually only a relative identity, you know, because the way you see things and the way you can experience things, of course, there seem to be unlimited variables, you know, and there didn't appear to be any standards. Any actual reality, if you like, you know. It was just a matter of accepting a relative reality, you know./(55) So you had a choice, but the choices became unlimited, you know what I mean. Every rock band was preaching their own philosophy, their own brand of things, you know. Someone was for the revolution, someone was for peace, you know (laughs) -/(56) I could see what they were at, and why they were feeling like that, you know. I used to empathise with so many philosophies, so many viewpoints, and could accept "Yes, you can think like that", because the whole idea of a standard disappeared, you know, in actual reality, an actual standard./(57) So, in this way, I found myself consciously becoming confused./(58) I realized what was happening./(59) I knew I was losing any kind of sense of real identity, or sense of what I would have considered as real identity, you know what I mean. It was just kind of relative reality, and I found I had to adjust my consciousness to be active in what I thought were different planes of reality. Like when I was in a lecture, you see I'm in college now. Eventually I went to college, you see. So, for instance, in the lecture, I have to be at that level of reality, "Look here I am, I'm a student, I'm learning something, so that I can get on in life", but then there would be other grades of consciousness, you know, which in my free time I would be experimenting, you know. when on that platform of consciousness, I would see this whole idea of trying to become established in this world, or the whole idea of accepting the authority of the professors as being ridiculous, you see./(60) Not that I was schizophrenic. I wasn't confused, which was my identity.

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I was just accepting that there were various levels of values,/(61) but I realized that actually most things weren't valuable. It was plainly obvious that most things weren't actually of any real value, you know, like the whole idea in the west that one has to strive to establish him self materially, you know this I could see, practically speaking, wasn't valuable, you know. I was satisfied like most people, like most animals actually, satisfied if I had somewhere to stay, with some association with friends, like that, and something to eat, you see./(62) At least, what I felt or thought was a progressive approach to life. I felt this was more valuable. Not becoming hung up in a framework, if you like, you know.

I felt the need to be liberated from the confines of a framework, if you like that's what I was searching for./(63) But, as I say, ultimately it resulted in confusion, you know./(64) we see that a lot of people who used to take LSD, they've given it up, you know, and they've pretty much fallen into a slot, you know. Many of them are doing what their parents did, where as at one time they were having the same realization, you know, but because they never found what they could call their identity, or accept as being a more real identity, and because the general influence of society was to accept, you know, the accepted reality, they once again accepted, kind of compromised normality, in terms of this society western society, you knowJ(65) So I consider that (Krishna Consciousness) came at a time when I most needed it, you know. In other words, (Krishna) came to my aid, when I was most receptive, you know, to being helped, if you know what I mean,/(66) because now I understand that the reason why, in the material world, one experiences so much difficulty in identifying himself, is because actually we have nothing whatsoever to do with this material world. Our real identity is beyond this world, you know; our real self has nothing to do with this world, you know, to one's cultural surroundings, to one's family background.

one is bound to be illusioned, you see./(67) So (Krishna Consciousness) came

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to me, at a point where I didn't really know where to turn, you know. I either had to, you know, go the whole gun, you know, really just space out on something, you know, or, you know, take a role conforming to society, take a position in the standard everyday culture, if you know what I mean - (laughs) and identify with that role or position and kind of base my life on that identity./(68) But, actually, the whole time, the whole idea of God was very much in my mind that there was a God, you know./(69) These other things were kind of like supplementary realizations./(70) More and more, I had a stronger feeling that there was a God. I was reading the Bible, lots of Eastern philosophies all the regular stuff, you know, Alan watts, you know, all the usual things, you know, the "Electric Koolaid Acid Test," you know (laughs)./(71) See, I tended to identify myself as being this body, you know. This is me, I look like this, you see (laughs) my mind, my way of seeing things, you know, whatever it might be, was accept able to me, you see. So I was identifying myself as being a member of a certain society, of a certain family, you know, that I'm this person's son, you know. In fact, I'd identify with all my past and present experiences, you know I was a student at this school. In other words, I was identifying with this world and my mind my implication in this world, you know, as being me, that I was a student here, and now I am a student here; you know, that I'm a hippie, or whatever you want to think. I wasn't actually a hippie, but what is hippie? but anyway, I was thinking that I was one of the new youth, what ever that means, you know. I would identify with some of the frameworks I could see around me./(72) But, having become a (devotee) of course, prior to becoming a (devotee) also I began to realize that I wasn't any of these things, you know. For a start, I could see that these things were always changing that I am a student, that I was a student, but I'm not anymore, therefore am I a student? I'm something else now, you see. I was young, but now I'm not so young, you see you know, I was a friend of this person.

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but now he's gone away, you know, so whereas before I identified as being his friend, I can no longer identify in that way so I began to see that to identify with anything temporary, you know, only gave me a temporary identity, you know, which ultimately was frustrating to me, because I actually wanted to know who I am always, you know. Uhat am I meant to do always? How shall I act always? you know, and what will always bring me happiness? you know. Same way, people's views and experiences change what will make them happy, you know. Like the first time you see a movie, right, it'll make you happy, but if you have to see it another l0 times, you know, it won't make you happy anymore, you know, you'll be bored stiff, you know.

So in the sane way, for this reason, I could see that my conception of who I was, what would make me happy, you know, was actually only temporarily of any substance, you see./(73) So, becoming a (devotee), I began to realize that, by understanding from a higher authority, from the authority of (my spiritual master, from the Vedas,) that actually I'm not any of these things; I'm not this body, I'm not this mind, but actually I am eternally associated with God; that's my identity, you know. By developing that association, you know, by identifying as an associate of God, by acting as an associate of God, in other words, by serving God, you see, that I actually could become happy and that this service to God existed even beyond the limits of my body, beyond the restrictions of time, that actually I was the servant of God in eternity, you know. That was my actual identity. This is the explanation of the (Vedas SANSKRIT ) that "this living entity is the eternal servant of God." So, in other words, as I became more identified as being a servant of (Krishna or) God, I actually found that I was relieved from all previous conceptions, by experiencing a happiness beyond anything, or a satisfaction, or a sense of being or reality, beyond anything I had previously experienced./

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INTERVIEWER: (Dhiranga), would you perhaps elaborate on these feelings of happiness and satisfaction once you became a (devotee)?

INTERVIEWEE: /( )well, before I was a (devotee), I was thinking I am this body, of course, you know. So, as does anyone who thinks that they are this body, I was very much preoccupied with trying to enjoy this body, through the medium of sense gratification. If you think you are this body, then you want to enjoy this body, because everybody wants to enjoy. It's natural actually./(75) In reality, we're meant to enjoy eternally in full blissfulness./(76) So, in the material world, the motivating principle behind everything we do, behind all our work, is that, as a result of our work, as a result of expending our energy, we want to create a situation where we can improve our enjoyment or happiness./(77) But on the bodily conception of life, I was thinking that happiness came from enjoying my senses; so, previous to becoming a (devotee), I was very much preoccupied with things, which most materialistic people are, you know. Enjoying my senses, through sex indulgence, you know, intoxication, you know, mental diversions, or whatever it might be. Models, films, whatever, you know./ (78) Having become a (devotee), the whole emphasis changed, you know.

Actually, it's an extreme change of emphasis, because the whole fundamental basis of life is the understanding that actually I'm not this body, you know, neither am I this mind. The mind is also changing, you know, but I'm the unchanging consciousness within this body. I was conscious of myself when I was 5, when I was I0, when I was l5, but the body has changed. The mind has also changed, but I've remained that same person, but I can't say I'm the body I was when I was 5, I can't say I have the same mentality, because my mind has changed completely over the years, but I have the same identity, of being a conscious being, you know. So the whole emphasis of spiritual life becomes placed on realizing one's actual identity, beyond the body and

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1mind, you see./(79) So sexual activities are practically non-existent with in the (temple)./(80) I mean, obviously we all require sense gratification.

This body requires to be satisfied, the senses require to be satisfied, but there wasn't the sense indulgence which I had been used to, you see./(81) Of course, there was (Qrasadam). Actually, I became very much attached to (Erasadam), you know. I realized that, prior to becoming a (devotee), I hadn't really eaten (laughs) most people in western society think they eat, but they don't. They get it out of a can, you know. The women, generally speaking they're not into cooking, you know what I mean. So the food's pretty much tenth rate, know what I mean, and it's usually pretty skimpy, you know.

Like I was used to drinking coffee and all; rather than eat, I'd drink coffee, you know. It became a very kind of loose thing, but the (prasadang or) food offered to (Krishna), not only I thought was purifying and transcendental, but it was also very substantial. It wasn't like anything, you know, I'd been used to. So I became very much attached to (grasadam), you know./(82) It is also recommended that a new (devotee) who is finding it difficult in controll ing his senses, after being very much unrestricted in his sensual activities should take shelter in (grasadam), you know, take shelter in as much as he likes./(83) So the taking of (grasadhm) became a real big thing, you know, sonething which I looked forward to a lot, you know, as a means of pacifying my otherwise distressed senses, you know (laughs) and I found that actually it was very effective in that way. I found that by taking (Qrusadam), my senses did become controlled, and I was very satisfied, you know./(84)Actually, within the (temple), there was very little emphasis on sex life, whereas in the material world everything revolves around this idea of enjoying sex life, you know. Basically, all social intercourse revolves around the ultimate goal, so-called ultimate experience of the intimacy of a sexual relationship, you know, but in the (temple), there was no emphasis on it whatsoever./(85)Con sequently, I forgot about it actually, except for the times when I had to

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1associate with what you might term the "other world", the old world, if you like, where these things were still made to seem so very important, you know.

But within the (temple) itself, I found I forgot all about it, as I did most other things, you know./(86) In other words, it actually proved to me that these thingsweren't actually necessary. I was able to remain happy and live peacefully, without having to endeavour in so many ways to enjoy my senses; you know that, actually, one could live happily without dependency on cinema, on restaurant, on music. Of course, I was very much attached to music, but even that became secondary, you might say./(87) Also the (jggggyp was immediatly attractive. By being able to sing (and chant Hare Krishna) and dance (iQ_the kirtans), was something I'd always wanted to do in Fjggzgf) life, you know, but really never got ittogether,in?1at way, you know. I remember in my hone town, we had one club called the Van Dyk Club. It was considered to be an underground club, you know. All the rock bands would come, and there would be occasions where everybody would get so doped up, that we'd just freak out and express ourselves through dancing or trying to express ourselves. what we were trying to express, we'll never know, but this was kind of like the pure form of dancing and expression. It was actually transcendental emotion, you know./(88) In the beginning, actually, I had no feelings for (Krishna) but they very quickly developed. I very quickly felt, you know, an attachment for (devotional) service, the association with (devotees), and at the same time, because of that, an attachment for (Krishna) developed very gradually, you know./(89) The process of that development is actually the whole story of the development of our (Krishna Consciousness)./(90) At the time that I was reading all those Eastern Philosophies I was telling you about, you know, I happened to visit London. I went with a friend of mine, from college. I think it was the Pink Floyd, playing at the Crystal Palace Ball, you know.

So we went to London. Actually, we were in North Hales - in wrexham. we went there monthly, with his friends who you might say in inverted commas were

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"hippies", you know what I mean. So we all went to London to see the Pink Floyd, you know, and I kind of felt that day that the whole scene at the pop festival was completely futile. It was completely worthless, because I knew that everyone had gone there with the idea of enjoying, you know.

This is what I sensed that day - that everyone who has come here is very anxious to enjoy. They're very expectant. "we're going to see the Floyd, we'll be there with so many other young people, you know, we'll enjoy", you know, but I could see as the afternoon progressed the Floyd didn't come on till the evening, you see - as the afternoon progressed, there were so many other bands there, and they were all relatively well-known, but the atmos phere gradually became unsettled, you know. Like in the beginning, every one was sitting down, and was thinking "we're the new generation" kind of thing, whereas in the afternoon people started going to the toilet, wandering around, looking at the women, buying hotdogs, you know. In other words, gett ing generally restless. lhey weren't content simply to listen to the music, even though, at home, everyone probably worshipped these bands that were appearing that day, you know. Here were these bands, actually playing, and still they weren't satisfied. It was obvious as everyone was gradually becoming more restless./(91) I was observing this development, you know,/ (92) and gradually, from being a very, you know, passive scene, they became very active, moving around, going here and there, you know. Mostly people were still sitting on the grass, but their attention was going away from the music, you know. They were getting into other things, thinking about sex life, you know (laughs) there were so many women around. Everybody's mind was becoming agitated./(93)! was seeing this developing, I was kind of watching it from an aloof position, you know./(94)Then, right at that moment, I was watching these things, and I was feeling "Hell, what is there, you know?" you know. I could see that the whole outview of the whole surrounding culture, the London subculture, was completely nowhere, you know, and whereas previously

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I had thought there was some value in this so called subculture, you know, based on what I felt were higher principles of consciousness, I could see even this so-called advanced culture within the underculture was actually nowhere./(95)Actually no one was satisfied. Still no one was able to relate, you know. It wasn't that the whole scene was love and peace that every body was completely freed from inhibitions, you know./(96)Practically you could take their parents and put them in the same position and there would be the same reactions, you see./(97)So I see "What is there? What is reality?" and just at that moment, when I was thinking like that, I saw a (Hare Krishna Devotee). I'd never seen one before in my life (laughs) /(98)This particular (devotee) was called (Trabulenar). He was actually a very nice (devotee), very advanced, you know, very pure person, you know./(99)My eye fixed on this person.

He had a (stack of magazines about 8 inches high on his right arm, you know, and he was inviting people to take the magazines)./(]O0)For a while, I was just observing this person moving through the crowd, you know, and I was seeing that he was having the same problem, you know, that people were reacting to him in different ways, even though my feeling was "Yeah, he's doing a nice thing, why should anybody bother him? why would anybody give him problems?", you know.

Still I could see that there were some people who were being very negative, you know, almost being nasty, if you know what I mean, and I thought "Why?", you know. "Here they are, we're supposed to be professing ourselves to be the love generation, but here the same things are happening."/(1o1)I could see, actually, the whole vibe he was giving was kind of pure and gentle, you know, you know.

He was kind of emanating a wonderful smile, practically an effulgence in my eyes./(]02)Nhy are people giving him a hard time? Some people were, some people weren't, you know. Most people were ignoring him, you know,/(103)but my whole realization at that time, my state of consciousness, made me realize probably more so than anyone else there, I suppose, this guy is happy, you know, he really has something valuable, you know./(]04)He wandered through the crowd completely aloof from the goings on, you know. "He's here for some other reason,

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you know. "we're all here for the music, you know, and for the association with so many people, for the prospect of enjoying sex life, or whatever it might be, but this guy, he's here for another reason? you know. I thought "What's he here for? what's he doing? (laughs) ~ What's motivating him?/ I05

1( )(He's got a shaved head (laughs) He's got a shaved head wowl" (laughs) you know. I had hair down to my shoulder blades, practically, you know, and I was very_proud of it, because it kind of represented what I felt I was, but here was this guy with a shaved head (laughs) and a dhoti, you know. He was wearing weird robes, you know. Actually, because of my interest in Eastern philosophy, I was immediately attracted to the safron robes and everything, like that). I'd had an attraction for these kinds of things before, and for the idea of renunciation, as I've said,/ (106) but then I felt I had to approach this person and find out. At least get a (magazine), you know. I was really spaced out, you know, and I didn't know how to approach him, you know. I could see he was somewhere else, you know what I nean. I didn't really know how to approach him, you know./(]07)So I kind of wandered down with my very good friend. John actually was very much instrumental in the development of my consciousness and my feeling of interest in spiritual life or Godly life or Godliness./(108)Anyway, I wandered down there with my friend John, and I asked him if I could take a (magazine),you know, and then I realized I didn't have any money (laughs) and there was a kind of little embarrassed scene, and then my friend gave me 20 cents, you know, and I took the (magazine). As a consequence I split as soon as I could.

I got away from the situation, you know,/(]O9)but I tried to make him feel that whatever he was doing, was real nice, you know. I felt that everyone was giving him a hard time./(1]0)But, as I say, I was really spaced out, you know./(]11)Then, the rest of the day, I kind of surrendered to the general atmosphere, you know, but the (devotee) was at the back of my mind, although I didn't see him again. The concert was getting heavy; everything became l77 heavy, actually. It also rained later on. The Floyd began playing, and the whole scene really became heavy, you know./(1]2)I could see that I wasn't enjoying myself at all, you know./(113)I was clutching this (magazine) the whole day,/(]]4)and we gradually made our way back to college. when I got back to college, I had got into the habit, just a few months previously actually, of reading all kinds of stuff, just prior to taking rest, you know (laughs) the (gible), it was weird, you know. Then I started reading this (Back to Godhead magazine),/(1]5)and, I must admit, I was very impressed, you know. I actually was struck with realization, practically speaking. First thing I thought, "This was very pure", you know, and "This philosophy is not only a philosophy which kind of takes in the things which I've already accepted, like (transmigration of the soul), the value of spiritual life, you know, the real purpose in life being to associate, but other things as well." It showed we a practical way of life, of spiritual life, not only as a philosophy, but these people, with the (shaved heads and the) big smiles, you know, and the kind of renunciation vibe. They were actually practising this philosophy.

It was their whole way of life, you know. I mean, they didn't have to do anything else. They really devoted themselves to this, and I remember there was one magazine I had, there was one picture of five (brahmachari's sitting cross legged and) just studying. This really appealed to me, you know. They (had shaved heads, they) were just studying, you know, which I found out later was the (Bhggavad Qita), you know. But there they were. This whole life style became immediately very attractive to my mind, you know. It seemed to include all the things, you know, which I considered valuable the pursuit of the real self, you know, the idea of renunciation in this world, you know, the idea that this world wasn't really valuable but led to something else, you know./(116)Anyway, by (Krishna's) arrangement, I happened to meet the same (devotee) and got another (edition of the magazine), and more and more, the whole philosophy became attractive to me. I began to realize that this was the standard I was looking for, you know, that all these standards seemed I78 to be higher and purer than any I had come across before. The values which were presented in the (Bhagavad gita, the Krishna Consciousness) philosophy.

I became attracted to the purity, to the depths of the philosophy./(]]7)It seemed to explain all the things which before had confused me. Like who I really was, you know./(]18)So, it was just a matter of time before I'd made the decision to leave college and join, you know./(1]9)0f course, this came as a shock to my parents and there was a whole emotional scene, you know,/ (120) but by (Krishna's) grace I really found that my conviction became so strong, you know. I really found this is what I wanted to do that anything else I did in this world, it wouldn't have been me, you know. It would have been halflhearted, you know, and it would have resulted in ultimately my being unhappy, I knew, you know./(]21)Just as everyone else was unhappy. My teachers were unhappy, you know,/(122)but there was actually a path, if you like, to transcend all these other things, and actually live in reality, if you like. Live for a real purpose, you know. So, eventually, I just went to the (temple) and joined./(]23)Of course, that was just the beginning, you know./(]24)Basically, I've been kind of telling you about my own experience, you know; my own experience actually isn't very valuable, especially my experience of the material world. It's actually not very valuable, because the only really valuable thing is to understand (Krishna), you know. So I don't know what type of value you're going to try and derive from what I've said, you know, but, actually, not until I start to explain to you about (Krishna) will I have said anything valuable really, in a real sense, anyway, as far as I am concerned./ INTERVIEWER: OK - Having become a (devotee) and gone to live in the (temple) how did you experience your life with (Krishna) as opposed to your life before moving into the (temple)? That is, tell me about what it meant to you to be (Krishna Conscious).

l79 INTERVIEWEE: /('25)1 just felt happy./(]26)0f course, a 10: of the things were difficult. The change of life-style was the main thing, you know, even though I always had a feeling for trying to become non worldly, if you like. I found, in the beginning, the restrictions of (temple) life very difficult to accept, like the idea of (getting up every morning at hglf_gg§t_th§gg) for the rest of my life./(127)At that time, it seemed like a difficult thing to do, you know, whereas now it's quite natural, but there was this phase of transition./(]28)Also, to totally give up all other values, even though, as I say, I'd pretty much rejected them in my mind. To actually abandon them completely, you know, you know, took something else./(129) Relig ion actually means to serve God, you know. So, in the material world, acting under the impression of false ego, you know, we kind of create our own life style, you know what l mean, and we kind of try to mould things around our idea of what is good or bad, you know, but basically, you know, everyone uses their time pretty much as they like, you know. So in the (temple) I found this wasn't the case. I found that I was constantly being subjected to a higher authority, you know./(]30)It was one thing being attracted to the spiritual life and another to follow the actual process of becoming purified, you know, becoming singled minded, you know. That was a little difficult to do, but not difficult to accept./(131)Everything I did was on the basis of conviction and understanding, you know, but it was difficult to actually carry out, at first anyway, you see. It wasn't actually that I was totally alone in my endeavour. There were other (devotees) who were already estab lished in (Krishna Consciousness)./(]32)I admire them greatly, this is the main thing. I admire the (devotees) so much, you know, and I rea?y respected them, you know, and I felt they were the most nicest people, and the most honest people. They didn't want to cheat me, you know./(133)They were all working for (Krishna) too, you know. Practically I could see it, not that I just thought they were working for (Krishna). I could see they were

180 working for (Krishna), you know. They weren't trying to get anything from me, you know. They weren't attached to whether I stayed or not, actually, you see, you know, you know what I mean./(134)So that feeling, that realiza tion that actually I'm not being exploited, you know; simply they're try ing to help me./(]35)At the same time they were very blissful people, happy people - pure, you know./(136)All these things helped me to progress, you know./(]37)Gradually, over a period of time, you know, I begun to assimilate the knowledge, to understand the philosophy more completely, you see, and the other things too became gradually second nature, you know./(13B)That period of transition was the hardest, you see, the period after actually coming to live in the (temple) and beginning to feel oneself a (devotee), you know. To feel oneself as much part of (the movement) as anyone else, you see In other words, the whole idea of taking on the identity of a (devotee), of being a servant of (Krishna), rather than of my whims and my sense, you know.

That was the most difficult thing./(]39)Everyone in the material world is looking to enjoy themselves. As I said, that's the motivating principle behind our activities, you know, but under the false conception that we're this body or this mind. As I say, we tend to think of happiness in terms of sense enjoyment. So, if one is objective, you know, everyone in the material world relates on the basis of sense enjoyment. In other words, they relate to each other, ultimately with the goal of trying to become happy, you see because they're thinking that happiness is derived from sense satisfaction or gratification, you know. So actually everyone is looking to enjoy their senses./(]40)So mostly, actually everyone is consciously or unconsciously. Their relationships in the material world are like they are looking for a victim - like they are looking for a victim (laughs) - when we enjoy our senses, we have to make an arrangement to l8l associate our senses with the sense object, you see. So even in personal relationships, people are looking to exploit their own senses. So it's actually very selfish, you know./ INTERVIEWER: Have you always felt this way, or...

INTERVIEWEE: /(141)well, actually, this is how everyone feels, whether they are aware of it or not, you see. This is the point./(142)No, presently, I see that everyone is actually serving (Krishna), but some have forgotten and they're identifying with their body, and they're trying to enjoy their body, rather than the association of (Krishna)./(143)Real pleasure means to associate with (Krishna), you know. One cannot actually derive real pleasure and satisfaction simply by identifying with his sense, with his mind, whereas the materialistic person, under the false conception that he is this body and mind, that he is an independent enjoyer, sees pleasure in terms of his own sense-gratification, and therefore, you know, he regards other persons and objects as sources of pleasure for him to be enjoyed./(144)So we may have some sentiment of love love your neighbour, you know what I mean, but actually because they can't avoid this exploitative mood in their relation ships, even though you may feel for a while that you're going to serve some one, you know this is also my experience, as I described; even though you may feel, in the beginning, you want to serve someone in this material world, because no one is completely attractive, you know, after a certain point your relationship with that person reaches a point of limitation, you know.

Love means an attraction, right? So, if a thing is attractive, or a person is attractive, you can feel that attraction for them, you know. So, as long as they remain attractive in your eyes, you'll feel loving attraction, you see, but because no one is unlimitedly attractive, you know, in our relation ships in the material world we reach a point of familiarity there's no longer anything new to attract us, you know, and therefore the desire to simply be with that person goes away, you know, and eventually you begin to

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1look for sonething new to enjoy, you see; because you're not simply satisfied, you know, you begin to supplement your relationship, having to listen to music, having to go to the restaurant, whatever it might be. Even tually, you want to enjoy, and because you are thinking this person is their body, it comes to a platform of gross sensual enjoyment, you see, which actually is frustrating ultimately to everyone, you see, and the loving attraction goes away. So, even though there may be a reflection of love, it's not pure because always there's this influence of what (Krishna) terms as being lust, or an exploitative mood, you know./(145)It comes into all relationships,/(]46)and this loving relationship, this idea of wanting to give, goes away. This service mood, this service attitude is destroyed by this enjoying-mood, whereas in a relationship with (Krishna), who is described as being all attractive, one need never give up that service attitude, because he is always feeling the freshness of (Krishna's) attractive qualities. This freshness is eternal - it never ends; I mean, look at me (laughs).

INTERVIEWER: Eternal freshness? What do you mean by that? INTERVIEWEE: /(]47)well ... Actually, one experiences time, you might say, according to his degree of anxiety. This is a fact. If one is in very intense anxiety, every minute will seem like an hour, you know. The more one is suffering, the more he feels the pangs of time, you know./(]48)So previously, of course, one is not conscious, as such, that he is suffering in the material world, as long as he is not enlightened, you know. I can describe to you how you are suffering, and you may not have realized it before, but then after hearing a few times /(149)this isn't some esoteric philosophy, it is very practical./(]50)Everyone is getting older, everyone is getting sick, everyone is dying, at every moment there is actually three fold miseries which are acting upon us, you see. I can describe these things to you. Before you may not have seen it so objectively, you know, but gradually l83

1being introduced to this more objective viewpoint, you can actually also understand that actually everyone is suffering./(151)So our experience of time is according to our degree of suffering, you know. It's like on the tubes in London; if you're huddled up during the rush-hour, you know, you are really uncomfortable, you know. The more you are really uncomfort able, the more you are dissatisfied, the more the time will drag by; where as, if you're really absorbed, you know, if you're preoccupied, you know, if you're enjoying yourself, then time will seem to fly, you won't be so much conscious of time, you know. Actually, your experience of time is relative to your position. If you're enjoying, you'll forget about time almost, you know. You'll forget that time is passing, you know, because you're enjoying every moment, you know. You're not lamenting, you're just enjoying, you know what I mean; whereas, if you're suffering, you see./ (152)So presently, because I've been becoming a little (Krishna Conscious), I'm actually experiencing a degree of liberation, not only from suffering, you know, but also from material enjoyment, which is also considered to be suffering, you see, and I'm experiencing actually, you know, freedom from the threat of time, which ultimately is death./(]53)You know, time has its ultimate effect in death for a conditioned soul./(154)So I'm actually feeling, as I understand more and more, I'm not this body, and experience more and more that, actually I'm eternal servant of (Krishna), I'm experiencing just that, that I'm actually eternal, and the service to (Krishna) is eternal, that it exists beyond this body, beyond death, you see./(155)Actually I have exper ienced death, but none that I'm conscious o? you know. /(156) Put it this way, it is explained that for a (devotee) just like the position of a rat in the mouth of a cat and the kitten in the mouth of the cat: Now ' the rat in the mouth of the cat, he's feeling that "This cat for me is death personified, and this is the end for me. Here I am, in the mouth of the cat. I'm finished", you see. But the kitten in the

184

1same position is thinking, "This is my dear mother, she's protecting me.

I'm feeling very safe", you see. So in the same way, death appears; according to your consciousness, it appears in different ways./(]57)To the (devotee), death is simply a transition from one set of material circumstances into the spiritual existence, you see, whereas for the ignorant person, death comes as the end or the so called end to all his previous activities and experiences, you know. It puts him in the position where everything he's done, everything he's tried to build up in this world is rendered completely worthless, and he's very much afraid, you know./ (]58)It's actually the entrance for him to another set of material circum stances, you know. It's the end of one sequence of material events, and it's the beginning of another sequence of material events, when he takes a new body./ l85

1INFORMATIONAL QUESTIONNAIRE PROTOCOL TWELVE §XII] NAME=_LHBB§_§Bl§B?B_Q§!QI§§)___ DATE: ________________________ __ (or initials if preferred) Please write down your experience of the interview which you have just had.

You could, for example, state your attitude and feelings toward the inter viewer and the interview situation, as well as any other feelings you have toward the situation you have just been in.

oooOo0o- The events which lead up to one's becoming interested or attracted to Krishna Consciousness are completely irrelevant in an attempt to understand Krishna Consciousness itself. To understand Krishna Consciousness one has to experience it by practising the process which will awaken it. Anyone from any background or nationality will experience an attraction for Krishna if he submissively tries to understand Him. The only qualifications or common feature among persons who are presently devotees is that they have all developed a feeling of attraction or love for Krishna and it is this and only this that binds them together (hence the society together). Without having experience of a constant and increasing attraction for Krishna and increasing joyfulness in His service the devotee would not be able to maintain the complete degree of devotion exhibited among the members of the Krishna Consciousness Society.

ooo0ooo ~

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1LIST OF NATURAL MEANING UNITS HARE KRISHNA DEVOTEE PROTOCOL TWELVE - (XII) R = REPETITION I = IRRELEVANT = From my early teens I felt alienated. (see 5,13 and 30.) = I perceived that people found it difficult to relate to one another.

= I became sensitive to social divisions between people.

= This (see item 3.) created difficulties since I held an egalitarian belief.

= I felt that I was also being discriminated against. (see l.) = P believed-there was a Gad. (R) - (see 8.) = My parents are Gathelie-but did not attend-ehureh.(I) = I strongly felt the presence of God and I adopted moral values.

(see 6.) = I began-mixing with girls and-develeped as ene asually-dees. (I) = I was not successful at school because I was not sufficiently motivated unable to perceive the purpose of school. (see l4.) = Ihis fee4ing (see item ¥9=) develeped-with time. (R) (see l0.) = { attended a Gatha¥ie-sehoe4. (I) = I experienced a conflict between what I held to be spiritual values and those held by the brothers (teaching staff), which appeared to be materialistic. (see l.) = I was not sueeessful at school bat this did-net eeneern me. (R) (see l0.) = In my late teens I began to feel that I was an independent person ality and my values began to differ from those held by my parents.

(see l7,22 and 33.) = The hippie culture was influential in my life.

= Hy parents and I had different seandards. (R) (see l5,l7,l9,22 and 33.)

187 = I am not overly concerned about this difference.

= ¥hey were eondoning-aleohel bat condemning mari3uana. (I) (see l7.) = Beth sheuld-be eondemned. (I) = I did not believe in any absolute standard. (see 3l,54,55 and 56.) = My-va¥ues differed-from those of my parents. (R) (see l5,l7 and 33.) = My first real involvement with a girl changed my life. (see 35 and 37.) = Although I associated with promiscuous people I was actually disgusted by promiscuity. (see 29.) = My brothers criticized me for the bad company I kept.

= My attraction for these people was because they were independent rather than because they were promiscuous. (see 29.) = My parents would often criticize me for the company I kept.

= I was attracted to my school group as well as to this other group whose activities were sometimes distasteful.

= Aithoagh I was asseeiating with bad eempany I was not really attraeted to them. (R) (see 24 and 26.) = I never really identified with any particular role or type of person and I maintained a progressive attitude. (see l.) = I began to realize that no one view-point was better than any other.

(see 2l,54,55 and 56.) = I justified my bad associations to myself by rationalizing that in this way my parents would value more what I would later become. (see 33.) = A4theugh my values are radically different frem these of my parents, they eeu+d-net ask for mere-than a spiritually inclined sen. (R) (see l5,l7,22 and 32.) = I began to feel increasingly that one could never find satisfaction in this material world.

= I beeame deeply invelved with a girl. (R) - (see 23 and 36.) = Ike sexual involvement inereased my attachment to her. (R) (see 35 and 38.)

188 The termination of the relationship had a devastating effect on me.

(see 23,39 and 40.) Our relationship had become degraded into a gross sexual thing. (see 36.) A4though we were attraeted to ene another we were-afraid of settling dawn because we-were young. (I) and 1 (R) of 37.

I retreated and realized that emotional involvement was worthless and only resulted in pain. (see 37.) During that relationship I lost much of my creativity and progressive thinking.

Philosophically I can now understand what happened during that relation ship.

This is my personal example.

During that painful period after the relationship had terminated, I began to search for something other than sex and my values began to change Although initially reluctant I became interested in LSD. (see 52.) Everyone fears something new or different lest it invalidate their life style and attitudes.

Everyonewastaking LSD so I took it.

Rather than having a sensual trip (while ingesting LSD) I began asking questions about the nature of God and the ultimate purpose of our exis tence. (see 51.) I knew that it was not possible to live in harmony.

I felt certain that it was possible to attain a universal brotherhood.

Many of my trips (LSD induced hallucinatory experience) were in churches.

(see 48.) Through the intensity of the LSD trips my previously held values seemed to be no longer as valuable as previously, and I adopted a type of liber ality. (see 45.) I became confused because I lacked a framework. (see 63.) l89 I began to see that the values and standards by which one lives were only relative to other values and standards. (see 2l,3l,55 and 56.) One had an unlimited choice of frameworks. (see 2l,3l,54 and 56.) ¥he +dea of any aetual standard disappeared. (R) (see 2l,3l,54,55

1and 63.) i beeame-eonfused. (R) - (see 53 through to 60.) I realized what was happening.

I was losing my sense of identity, being ambivalent about the acceptance of need-to-achieve ethic and simultaneously seeing this as being ridiculous I was not confused about my own identity but rather that there were compe ting value-systems.

I did not feel the need to achieve and was satisfied just to have friends and food.

I felt that it was more valuable not to become confined by a framework.

lilris ( see i t em 62 .~)~~resuLted iai con ius i oru. (R) (see 53 and 56.) Hany-ef these-whe were tak+ng-kSB have re aeeepted ma4nstream-values because they were unable to find~an alternative-identity. (I) At a time when I was most receptive to being helped Krishna Consciousness came to my aid. (see 67.) I now realize that we are alienated in this material world because our true identity lies beyond this world. (see I54.) Krishna Consciousness arrived during an existential crisis of whether to conform or to drop out completely. (see 65.) I was continually aware of God.

Any other realizations were subordinate and supplementary to my awareness of God.

I became increasingly convinced about the existence of God and I read many spiritual books.

l90 Previously I identified with a certain family, society and set of attitudes. (see 74 and 78.) Just prior to becoming a devotee I began to realize that I was none of these (see item 7l.) things and that identification with transient things leads to existential frustration, As a devotee I realized that I am the eternal servant of God and was released from all prior conceptions, so experiencing a happiness greater than I had ever experienced before. (see l54.) Prior to becoming a devotee I identified with my body and was preoccupied with sensual gratification. (see 7l,77,78 and l54.) In reality we are meant to enjoy an eternal bliss. (see l43 and l46.) The material world is dominated by the will to pleasure. (see I39.) Pr+or~ao4mumrHup11knnvH§e P1nrr1m1amxa4vkad1++H+1aeanF1mwat+FHxr t4<x+. (R) (see 74.) Since the basic of tenet of Krishna Consciousness is that we are not our bodies, there was a drastic change of fundamental emphasis on becoming a devotee. (see 71,74 and l54.) Sexual-aetivities are-nen existent within-the temple. (R) (see 84.) As a devotee one still requires sensual gratification but in moderation i beeame-very attached to the tempie food which is-far superier-to that which §-had been used~te.' (I) it is reeommended that a new devotee-substitate this foed-fer his-eld duims. U) (we8L) 4 beeame-very attached te-this food. (R) (see Bl.) In the material world 'sex' predominates while this is not the case in the temple. (see 79.) Consequently I forgot about sex except when outside the temple.

This was proof for me that happiness was possible without forms of entertainment. (see 87,120 and l25.) l9l Chanting is appealing as a form of self expression, as is all music, but I was never able to express myself in this manner prior to joining the movement. (see 86,120 and l25.) Initially I felt no attraction to Krishna but this developed through my attraction to the devotees and the devotional service.

This (see item 88.) is the developmental process of Krishna Consciousness.

At the stage of my reading various Eastern philosophies I attended a 'pop' festival and was struck by its futility and the inability of people to remain satisfied for long. (see 94.) §-was-observ#ng-this (see item 90.), (R) (see 93.) Frem-being-a passive seene with attention foeussed on the musie;-it became aetive-and the-people beeame-distraeted thinking about sex. (I) and qualification of item 90.

= I was observing these events from an aloof position. (see 91.) I now saw the counter culture as being futile although I had previously valued it. (see 90.) lhe-eeunter culture-members were not free from inhibitiens; they eeuld not relate te others and-they-were not satisfied. (I) and qualification of 90 and 94.) They were ne different from their parents. (I) and further qualification of 90,94 and 95.) It was at this stage of my disillusionment with the counter-culture that I saw a devotee for the first time.

This devotee was a nice, pure person and was spiritually advanced.

(see lOO and l0l.) My attention was caught by this devotee.

Although we were sapposed to be the-4eve generation; many people would not aeeept-this devetee-altheugh I thought that he was-deing something néee. (R) (see 98 and lO2.)

192

1I eauld see-that-he was-a very nice person. (R) - (see 98.) Biffereat people~reaeted-to him dmerently. (I) (see lD0.) I became very aware, possibly more so than any one else, that this person had something very valuable to offer - he was happy.

He was not motivated by the same things as us.

He was dressed strangely and I was immediately attracted.

I felt that I had to approach this person but I did not know how.

§ approaehed-him-w+th a-friend who was later instrumenta4-in the develepment-oi-my Krishna Eenseieusness. (I) Gar meeting-was slightly embarrassing and~eensequent%y I moved on as soon as pessib¥e. (I) I attempted to make the devotee feel that I accepted him.

I was rather spaced out. (I) Although I surrendered to the general atmosphere for the remainder of the day I kept thinking about the devotee. (see ll3.) I was not enjoying myself.

I elutehed the magazine-(Baek te-Gedhead) al4-day. (R) - (see lll.) Dn arriving home I read the magazine.

I was very impressed, as not only did their philosophy accept what I had already accepted, but it also entailed an attractive and practical life-style. (see l49.) I again met this same devotee, through Krishna's arrangement, and became increasingly interested in the philosophy.

It explained phenomena which previously had confused me.

It was just a matter of time before I decided to join the movement.

This shocked my parents.

I became increasingly convinced, through Krishna's grace, that this was the only way that I would be happy. (see 86,87 and l25.)

193

1Everyone else was unhappy.

The movement was a way to transcend artificialities and had a real purpose.

My joining was just the beginning.

My-experienee is-net very valuable-sinee-the-on+y-valuable thing is to-be able to understand-Kr+shna. (I) Having 5ained the mevement-I felt happy. (R) - (see 86,87 and 120.) There were many initial difficulties, the major one being the change in life-style. (see l27 and l38.) ¥he-trans+t+on-was difficult; what +s now normal for-me-was initially difficult. (R) - (see l26 and 138.) It was difficult to abandon my previously held values completely.

while temple life is structured and lived subject to a higher authority, material life is not.

Although it was not difficult to accept spirituality, it was difficult to practice a spiritual life. (see l3l.) Spiritual life was initially difficult although i was eenvineed ef its eerreetness and was not alone in my endeavour as there were other devotees already in Krishna Consciousness. (R) (See 130,) I admire and respect the devotees and they do not wish to exploit me I can trust them. (see T34.) The devotees were (and still are) working for Krishna and there was no pressure on me to remain in the movement.

I felt that I was not being exploited they were trying to help me.

(see l32.) They were (and are) very happy and pure people.

This (see items l3l through to 135.) helped me to progress.

I gradually adapted to and internalized my new life style and its philosophy.

l94

1= The transition from pleasing myself to living and internalizing an ordered and structured life style was most difficult. (see 126 and l27.) = ¥he primary-metivating principle in-the material werld is the will to pleasure. (R) (see 76.) = This (see item l39.) results in selfish, exploitative relationships.

= Everyone is selfish whether they are aware of it or not.

= Actually everyone is serving Krishna although many people have forgotten this and are attempting to enjoy physically.

= Real pleasure is derived from serving God while the materialist is deluded into thinking that enjoyment is possible without reference to God. (see 75 and l46.) = Although a relationship may begin with love it will eventually become exploitative.

= This (see item l44.) holds for all relationships.

= in a-loving relationship the desire te give remits-while in a re¥ation ship with Krishna-the-des+re to give-and to serve remains. (R) (see 75 and l43.) = ¥ime is experieneed-aeeording-to the~degree of ene*s-anxiety-- the greater one*5 anxiety;-the more drawn out time beeemes. (I) (see l5l.) = Before joining the movement one is not aware that one is suffering in the world.

= ¥he-philesephy is not eseterie but is-praeeieal. (R) (see ll5.) = By being objective one realizes that everyone is suffering.

= ¥eu experience time aeeerding-te your degree ef-sufiering. (R) (see l47.) and (I) = Becoming Krishna Conscious I am experiencing freedom from suffering and the threat of time.

= For a non-devotee time has its ultimate effect at death.

195

1i am beginning te-exper+enee inereasing4y-that § am-net this body but rather am the eteran} servant-ef-Krishna. (R) - (see 66,73,74

1and 78.) I have no conscious experience of death.

Death appears-differentiy aeearding to enels consciousness. (R) - (see 157 and 158.) To the devotee, death is a transition from materiai existence to spirituai, whiie for the non devotee death negates ail his previous activities. (see 156 and 158.) For the non-devotee, death is the end of one set of material circumstances and the beginning of another set of materiai circumstances (rather than the beginning of spirituai existence).

(see 156 and 157.) l96

1CONSTITUENT PROFILE HARE KRISHNA DEVOTEE PROTOCOL THELVE (XII) From my early teens onwards I felt alienated: I believed that all people were equal although social divisions and interpersonal alienation existed.

I strongly sensed the presence of God and so I adopted moral values. At school I was not successful since I was not sufficiently motivated and furthermore there was a conflict between what I felt a spiritual life should be and the life styles of the Catholic Priests teaching at my school.

In my late teens I began to feel that I was an independent personality and, being influenced by the counter culture, my values differed from those of my parents although I was not overly concerned about this difference. I was criticized by my family, for, in addition to my school friends, I also kept bad company although actually I was disgusted by promiscuity. My association which I felt I could justify with such individuals was because they were independent. Gradually I realized that all standards were relative and I increasingly felt that satisfaction in this world was not possible. At that stage I was devastated by the termination of an intensely emotional and sexual relationship with a girl to whom I was deeply attached. I began to see emotio nal involvement as worthless and as destructive. I am now able to understand philosophically what happened life is difficult and alienating because our true identity lies beyond this world. In the painful aftermath, I began searching for something else and my values began to change with the assistance of LSD, although I was initially afraid to undergo change. Many of the trips (LSD induced hallucinatory experience) were spiritual and concerned with questions about God's nature and the ultimate purpose of our existence, rather than being sensual experiences. Although I believed in a universal brother hood, I could see that its realization was not possible. My previous value system had lost all viability for ne and I became ambivalent as to whether l97 I should accept mainstream reality or reject it completely. I felt that it was more valuable not to become confined by a framework. It was when I was going through this existential crisis and was most receptive to assist ance that Krishna Consciousness arrived. I had been becoming increasingly convinced that there was a God and had read many spiritual books. All other realizations were subordinate and supplementary to my awareness of God. I had begun to perceive that, although I identified with a certain family, society and set of values, I was actually none of these, and that identification with transient things leads to existential frustration. As a devotee, I realized that I am the eternal servant of God, and, being released from all prior conceptions, I experienced a happiness greater than I had ever experienced before. As a devotee one still requires sense gratification, but in moderation. One does not require entertainment in order to be happy and I have found self expression in the form of chanting to be appealing. Although I was not initially attracted to Krishna, I found the life style to be appealing. This was at a stage when I was struck by the futil ity of the counter culture which I had previously valued. I was immediately attracted by the first devotee that I had ever seen and I accepted his stance although most others did not. He had some thing valuable he was happy and was not motivated by the same things as us. I felt that I had to approach him, which I eventually did. Although I surrendered to the general atmosphere for the remainder of the day, I did not forget this devotee and at my earliest opportunity I began to read the movement's literature. I was attracted to the practical life-style and the philosophy which explained phenomena about which I was previously confused. I eventually joined the movement, which shocked my parents, but I had become convinced that this was the only way I would find satisfaction.

By joining the movement I was able to transcend all the artificiality and had a purpose in life. Initially there were many difficulties: the tran sition from an unstructured life style to a structured one, the complete

198 abandonment of previous values, and the change in fundamental emphasis, as well as the difficulty of living spiritually although one might have accepted a spiritual ethic. I admire and respect the other devotees who did not wish to exploit me, nor did they exert pressure on me to remain in the movement. I feel that I can trust them, and their companionship and example helped me to progress. In the material world, the dominating principle is that of pleasure, and this results in exploitation and selfish ness. However, real eternal pleasure is derived only from serving God, rather than being deluded, as are the materialists, into thinking that enjoyment is possible without reference to God. 0n becoming Krishna Conscious, one becomes aware that one was actually suffering previously and that now one is freed from such suffering and the threat of time death which is feared by the non devotee but is looked forward to by the devotee.

199 SECOND ORDER PROFILE HARE KRISHNA DEVOTEE PROTOCOL TWELVE (Xlll Felt alienated from an early age felt that others were also alienated.

Moral values were adopted since the presence of God was strongly felt.

Felt that education was useless not sufficiently motivated.

Felt that youth culture was futile.

Conflict between his conception of spirituality and that of others.

Grew apart from family became an independent personality and was influenced by the counter-culture.

Criticized by family for the keeping of bad company.

Disgusted by promiscuity.

Felt independent realized the relativity of value-systems.

Unable to find satisfaction life is difficult and alienating because our true identity lies beyond this world.

Felt that emotional involvement is worthless and destructive.

Began to question the nature of God and the ultimate purpose of our existence.

Became ambivalent about the adoption of a given set of values required a framework.

God came during an existential crisis awareness of God dominated life project.

Our nature is to serve God.

Value system changed drastically.

Experienced happiness greater than ever before.

No longer preoccupied with sensual gratification.

Found practical spiritual life-style to be attractive.

Had admiration and respect for the devotees companionship helped him to progress.

Parental disapproval of son's joining the movement.

Now had a purpose in life.

was able to transcend artificialities.

Had initial difficulty in practising a spiritual life style Disparaging towards other people (non devotees).

Disparaging towards the material world.

Experienced freedom from suffering.

Time is no longer found to be threatening.

No longer as afraid of death as previously.

Hierarchical Order l 2

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1HIERARCHICAL CATEGORIZATION PERTAINING T0 THE HARE KRISHNA DEVUTEES Krishna Consciousness has given neaning to my life, very satisfied, feel fulfilled, at peace, happy, calm. 68.75% (ll) (II;ll,l6.) (III;l6.) (IV;l2.) (VII;9.) (VIII;l4.) (1X;l5.) (XI;lO.) (XlI;l7,22,27.) (XIV;27.) (XV;l0.) (XVI;l2.) Material exhaustion and distress, disillusioned with the culture, felt that something was missing, felt empty desire for spiritual knowledge remained unfulfilled , bored, wanted excitment, dissatisfied with material life, felt that life was futile, feels that he was misled. 62.50% (l0) (I;l,4.) ([I;4.) (III;5.) (VII;8.) (lX;4,5,6,7.) (XI;3,4.) (XII34.l0.) (XIII;l1.) (XIV;l.) (XV;8.) Requires complete commitment, serious about present life style, feels that it is permanent, spiritual quest must be taken seriously, difficult requires abstinence, discipline is required, must give up material attachments - not difficult having experienced the Supreme. 62.50% (l0) (11;1o,1s.) (III;ll.) (1v;9.) (v11;n.) (v111;s.) (IX;l0,l6.) (XI;l'I,l7.) (XII;24.) (x111;1o.) (x1v;12,1s.) Feels it is our duty to serve God, it is our nature to be attached to God, it is our nature to serve God, the purpose of life is to serve God, spirituality is essential for man, had to serve God in order to be fulfilled. 62.50% (10) (I;8.) (III;l5.) (IV;2,3.) (V;2.) (VII;3,ll.) (IX;24.) (XI;l4.) (XII;l5.) (XV;ll.)(XVI;l,2,7.)

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1Krishna Consciousness has a deep and valuable quality, respects the devotees, attached to the practical life style and the philosophy, admired the devotees; seemed to be genuine, seemed happy their companionship and example was conducive to spiritual progress. 62.50% (l0) (II;8.) (VIII;l2.) (IX;9,ll,l4.) (X;l4.) (XI;7.) (XIl;l9,20.) (XIII;6,7.) (XIV;l0,ll.) (XV;6.) (XVI;4.) Felt trapped, inferior, anxious, unable to sleep, hyper reflective, felt restless, life became increasingly un bearable, much suffering, was unhappy, felt bewildered and controlled by the material world. 56.25% (9) (III;l,6,l7.) (IV;l3.) (VII;l.) (VIII;ll.) (IX;l3.) (X;8.) (XI;2.) (XIV;l7.) (XV;9.) Negative attitude toward people: finds people boring, people exploit and manipulate resources, people driven by desires, sees people as being insecure, no set goals, emotionally labile, lacking self-respect, people fear Krishna Consciousness. 56 25% (9) (IV;l4.) (V;4.) (VI;3.) (VIII;9.) (IX;29.) (X;l5.) (XI;8.) (XII;25.) (XIII;l4.) Negative attitude toward material life: hellish, temporary and futile, a place of suffering and frustration, the world is a disgusting, confusing and engulfing place, like a prison, too competitive. 55 25%(9) (V;l0.) (VII;l2.) (VlII;8.) (IX;22.) (X;l2.) (XI;l5,l6.) (XII;26.) (XV;2,3.) (XVI;6.) Negative attitude toward other spiritual paths. Christianity was meaningless, of no practical value,only ISKCON's texts seemed original, felt religion was mechanical and insincere, felt dissatisfied with church, felt dissatisfied with hypoc~ risy of Christians. 43_75%(7) (II;l2.) (lV;4.) (V;l.) (IX;2.) (XII;5.)(XIII;4J (XIV;5,7.) No longer afraid of death. 43.75%(7) (VIII;2l.) (IX;28.) (X;l6.) (XII;29.) (XIlI;l7.) (XIV;26.) (XVI;9.) Feels that present life-style is radically different from previous life-style, world view has changed, the transformation 203

1is like waking from a bad dream. 3l.25%(5) (v111;3,22.) (1x;1.) (XI;l8.) (x11;1s.) (x1v;le ) More present centred; time no longer depressing, no longer fears time, time passes rapidly, less controlled by time, feels free from time.

(VIII;l0.) (IX;27.) (XI;2l.) (XII;28.) (XIV;23,24.) Always knew there was a God, spiritually inclined from an early age strongly felt God's presence.

(v111;1s.) (x;1.) (x1I;2.) (X1v;3,4.) (xv1,1.) Initially sceptical, but finally joined, initially confused about the belief, joined after much inner conflict.

(I;3.) (II;6 ) (IX;l0,l2.) (XIV;l4.) More relaxed, calm, less anxious.

(II;l5.) (VIII;ll.) (IX;l3,l5.) (X;l0.) 31.2s%(s) 3l.25%(5) 25.0o%(4) 25.0o%(4) Prior to joining the movement, he was interested in Eastern philosophy for a long time, interested in Eastern philosophy before joining the movement.

(IV;l.) (V;l.) (XIII;l.) (XV;5.) Given present perspective, I could see my life was purpose less, felt life was wretched, life was meaningless, sinful.

(IV;l5.) (VIl;4.) (VIII;l.) (X;5.) God is in control.

(VI;2.) (VIl;2.) (XI;24.) (XVI;l0.) I led a relatively regulated life style before joining, adopted a spiritual life style before joining the movement.

(VII;6.) (XI;5.) (XIV;l3.) (XVI;5.) Used to avoid people, did not relate to people, felt different from others, felt alienated from an early age.

(IX;l7.) (XII;l.) (XIII;l3.) (XVI;3.) Feels fortunate at having been able to join the movement.

(I;2.) (XI;6.) (XIV;2l.) One must give up the past, the past is rubbish.

(II;l0.) (VII;l0 ) (VIII;6.) Learned to be more disciplined, now more restrained.

(III;l9.) (V;7.) (VI;5.) 204

125.00% 25.00% 25.00% 25.00% 25.00% l8.75% 18.75% 18.75% Confused, unable to understand my predicament.

(III;7.) (VIII;2.) (XII;l3.) Felt free, no problems, no responsibilities, free from obligations.

(IV;l0.) (VI;8.) (XI;l2.) was unrestrained, caused much suffering and unhappiness, suffering caused by desires, suffering caused by exploitation (V;6.) (VI;4.) (IX;25.) Feels that he has insight into human suffering, feels that he has insight in human nature.

(VI;7.) (XI;l9.) (X1V;l8.) I had everything material that I wanted, but not satisfied, had an easy life, but frustrated.

(VII;7.) (XI;l.) (XV;l.) Has a structured life after having joined the movement.

(IX; 30) (XI;20.) (XlV;22.) Parental disapproval of his joining the movement.

(XI;9.) (XII;2l.) (XIII;8.) Before joining the movement he was easily influenced.

(I;6.) (III;8.) was unable to discriminate, can now discriminate between sinful and sinless activity.

(I;5.) (VIII;l3.) Undergoing a cleansing experience, have become more austere.

(II;9,l4.) (lII;3,4.) Had been searching for a meaningful belief and life style, everything tried, never satisfied.

(II;2.) (X;4.) Required a framework, needs a structured life style.

(II;3.) (XII;l3.) Many questions were answered, Krishna Consciousness supplied answers.

(II;7.) (XIII;6.) was self centred, did not listen to people, now more apprecia tive of people.

(III;l0.) (IX;l8.) More emotionally stable.

(III;l3.) (X;l3.) Realized that I needed God, spiritually inclined before I joined the movement.

(III;2.) (XIII;3.9.) Previously led a secluded life, reading many books.

(IV;8.) (XVI;3.) we have no control.

(v;s.) (XI;25.) 206

112.50% 12.50% 12.50% 12.50% 12.50% 12.50% 12.50% 12.50% 12.50% Material desires diminish, no longer preoccupied with sensual gratification.

(v;3,9.) (x11;1s.) Man is not free, man has no real choice.

(VI;3.) (IX;23.) Emotions and feelings are temporary and limited, emotional involvement is worthless, destroys creativity and is painful.

(VI;6.) (XII;ll.) I was not formally religious, never attracted to formal religion before Krishna Consciousness.

(VII;5.) (VIII;l6.) Frustrated with contemporary educational institutions, feels that education was meaningless not motivated to study.

(1x;4.) (x11;3.) No longer has to be false, has transcended the artificiality of life.

(XI;l3.) (XII;23.) Body is a hindrance.

(XI;22.) (XIV;l9.) Time should not be wasted.

(XIII;l6.) (XIV;25.) 207 50% (2) 50% (2) 50% (2) .50% (2) 50% (2) 50% (2) 50% (2) 50% (2) Feels that he hasn't really changed.

(I;7 ) Encounter with Krishna Consciousness was accidental (II;l.) Required courage to approach devotees.

(II;5.) Still something missing.

(III;5.) Saw higher education as giving me power.

(III;9.) was unable to make decisions.

(III;l4.) Felt driven by loneliness and sexual desire.

(III;l7.) Learned to be patient.

(III;l8.) Krishna Consciousness is dynamic and challenging.

(IV;5.) Can read in the temple.

(IV;6.) Parental support of desire to join the movement.

(IV;7.) Feels that success is guaranteed.

(IV;ll.) Feels that cannot give personal opinion must rather give the scriptural opinion.

(VI;l.) No longer strives for material satisfaction. 6 25% l (VI;9.) Feels that has a higher quality satisfaction than anyone else (VI;lD.) we are in this material world because we have forgotten our own spiritual nature.

(VII;l .) Believes that devotion to God will alleviate the suffering of others.

(VII;3.) The purpose of this material world is to afford us the opportunity of returning to God.

(VII;l2.) Feels that he is still weak because he is vain.

(VIII;4.) Reminisces over the past.

(VIII;7.) Positive attitude toward God: God is a friend.not a judge.

(VIII;l7.) Not as greedy.

(VIII;l9.) Used to exploit people.

(VIII;20.) Reading scriptures is more personal than going to church.

(IX;3.) Did not know what I wanted to do.

(IX;8.) Has occasional feelings of elation and bodily relief.

(IX;l9,20.) Spiritual happiness is incomparable with material happiness (1x;21.) Time controls the material world.

(1x;2s.) Did not wish to exploit others.

(X;? ) Did not wish to be exploited.

(X;3.) Wanted to understand people, now wants to understand herself (X;6,7.) We do not understand material nature.

(X;9 ) More accepting of change.

(X;ll.) Death confronts us every moment.

(XI;23.) Grew apart from family, was criticized by family.

(x11;s,7.) Disgusted by promiscuity.

(XII;8.) Never identified with any particular situation and therefore felt independent realized relativity of value systems.

(XII;9.) Began to question the nature of God and the ultimate purpose of existence awareness of God began to dominate life project.

(XII;l2,l4.) God came during an existentiai crisis.

(XII;14.) Always wanted an image.

(XIII;2.) Opposed to mainstream values from an eariy age.

(x1u;5.) Fanaticaliy involved with music.

(XIII;12.) Feels that peopie do not acknowiedge the certitude of their own death.

(XIII;1S.) No motivation to achieve.

(XIV;2.) Became introspective before joining the movement.

(XIV;6.) Had an unstabie home life.

(XIV;8.) wished to be independent of society only viable through ISKCON.

(XIV;9.) 6.

1212

125% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% Felt depressed.

(XIV;20.) Felt that people around me were frustrated.

(XV;4.) Gave up family attachments.

(XV;7.) I am becoming increasingly spiritually aware, my faith is increasing continually.

(XVI;l,8.) The new life style was relatively easy to adopt.

(XVI;ll.) ' 213

16.25% (1) 6.25% (1) 6.25% (1) 6.25% (1) 6.25% (1)

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1EXTENDED DESCRIPTION OF THE MEANING OF BECOMING AND BEING A MEMBER OF THE HARE KRISHNA MOVEMENT The essential theme of becoming and being a Hare Krishna Devotee is one of fulfilment; of having a purpose in life, of feeling happy, calm and at peace (no.l.).

Many group members explicitly maintained that, prior to joining the movement, their relationship to the world was such that their life was empty; they were bored and wanted excitement and their desire for spiritual knowledge remained unfulfilled. They had everything material that they wanted and yet still were not satisfied. They were disillusioned with and alienated from mainstream society, there was a conflict betweentheir conception of spirituality and that of others, they felt that life was futile and that they had been misled as well as being frustrated with contemporary educational institutions. They felt trapped, inferior, anxious and restless, such that life was becoming increasingly unbearable (nos. 2, 6, 28 and 46.) In passing it should be noted that at least one devotee (no. 65 VII;l.) felt that this dysfunctional existence had come about through a forgetting of one's own spiritual nature, and that an opportunity to return to God is afforded by the material world (no. 67 VII;l2.). Furthermore, two group members explicitly stated that they had been searching for a meaningful life style and belief, but could find no satisfaction (no. 34.). In sharp contrast to this, the Hare Krishna movement was seen as having a deep and valuable quality, as having a satisfy ing philosophy and a practical life-style, while also being dynamic and challenging (nos. 5 and 58.). In addition, there are explicit statements to the effect that, being a Hare Krishna Devotee, one has a higher quality satisfaction than anyone else, that spiritual happiness is incomparable with material happiness (nos. 64 and 76.), and that one no longer has to be false one is able to transcend the artificiality of life (no. 47.). Furthermore,

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1a substantial number of devotees admired their fellow devotees and considered them to be genuine, pointing out that the latter's companion ship and example helped them to progress spiritually (no.5.).

For some individuals, however, there was an initial ambivalence towards the movement an initial scepticism and confusion about the movement although they finally joined after some inner conflict had occurred (no.l4.).

This is understandable, since the life style to which they are attracted is one which requires complete commitment. Thus, the protocols comprise explicit descriptive statements to the effect that one's involvement in the movement is felt to be permanent and that the spiritual quest must be taken seriously since it is difficult, requiring abstinence from sensual gratification and the giving up of material attachments (no. 3.).

This spiritual quest is viewed by the group members as being both natural and essential. Hence there are statements that the purpose of life is to serve God, who draws one like a magnet, that it is man's nature to be attracted to God, that it is man's duty to serve God, that one has to serve God who is in control and is merciful in order to be fulfilled (no. 4.), and that devotion to God will alleviate the suffering of others (no. 66 VII;3.).

A substantial number of group members explicitly stated that they still felt at dis-ease in the world and in their relatedness to fellow man. For example, there are descriptive statements that the world is a disgusting, confusing and engulfing place; that the world is like a prison, a place which is temp orary and futile ; a place of frustration and of suffering (no. 8.); a place where there are no absolute standards (no.86 XII;9.). This suggests that their relationship to the world was and still is one of dis ease (nos. 2, 6

1and 8.) possibly because, to paraphrase one devotee (no.2 VII;l0.), "... our true identity lies beyond this material world."

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This mode of being in the world is compatible with their past and present relatedness to fellow man. Hence there are explicit descriptive statements in the protocols to the effect that, prior to joining the movement, people were avoided, that group members did not relate easily to others, that they felt different from other people, and that they felt alienated from an early age (no.20.). It is explicit that, even after joining the movement, group members still find fellow man to be boring, to be an exploiter and manipula tor of natural resources, to be driven by desires, to have no set goals and to be insecure, emotionally labile and lacking in self respect (no.7.).

Supporting this dis ease with fellow-man is the finding that two of the above Hare Krishna Devotees (VI and XII) explicitly stated that emotions and feel ings are temporary and limited, and that emotional involvement is worthless it destroys creativity and is painful (no.44.). Compatible with this mode of dis ease are the descriptive statements by two of the devotees that the body is a hindrance (no. 48.).

The assertion that their relationship to the world and to fellow man has not essentially changed is supported by the finding that, although being a group member imposes a structure upon one's existence, a number of group members had already adopted a structured life style prior to joining the Hare Krishna movement (no.l9.). Furthermore, a few group members explicitly stated that they were spiritually inclined before joining the movement (nos. l6,l9 and 39.) although not necessarily formally religious (no.45.), and that they had begun to question the nature of God and the ultimate purpose of our existence. Hence the relational changes that occurred as a function of becoming a Hare Krishna Devotee would appear to be of degree rather than of kind. For example, three group members each explicitly stated that their life style had become more structured (no.23. III; V; VI.), implying that it was structured before they joined, while five group members (no.l6 IV; V; XIII; XV: no. 39 III; (XIII)) explicitly stated that they were spiritually inclined prior to

1l7 joining the movement and are now more so inclined. Furthermore, several other group members (no.l3 - VIII; X; XII; XIV; XVI) explicitly stated that they were spiritually inclined from an early age, always knowing that there was a God and being disgusted by promiscuity (no. 85 XII; 8.). In fact, the awareness of God began to dominate one's life project (no.87 XII;l4.). In addition, one group member (no.37 IX;l8.) explicitly stated that he was now more appreciative of people although this same devotee was nevertheless disparaging towards fellow man (no.7 - IX;29.). Hence it is understandable that one group member (no.50 I;7.) should explicitly state that he felt he had not really changed.

However, there has been a change in the temporality of their existence for at least some devotees. Time, for example, is no longer felt to be a vacuum demanding to be filled, a dimension of existence forcing itself upon one.

Rather, one's relationship to tine is such that one feels free from the con straints of time. Hence there are explicit descriptive statements that time is no longer felt to be depressing and a dimension of existence to be feared.

Time is felt to pass rapidly, such that one is less controlled by its passage than otherwise. (no. l2.).

This change in the structure of temporality is compatible with the general feeling tone of fulfilment. Their lives are no longer stagnant within the passage of time such that time is to be feared less they are swamped. Rather, their existence is now purposeful they have a mission in life. Their exis tence is fulfilled more specifically, their temporality is "filled" such that time should not be wasted (no. 49.), and yet they feel more relaxed and less anxious (no. l5.).

It is interesting to note that most of the group members who explicitly referred to a change in their temporal mode of being (no. l2 - VIII; IX; XI; XII; XIV ) also explicitly stated that they no longer feared death (no.l0.

118 This is understandable in terms of the above exposition, since there would appear to be freedom from the constraints of time, death being a temporal constraint the end point of one's temporality. Furthermore, they are already fulfilled. They do not need to become fulfilled. Thus their finitude becomes less ominous. They are not racing against time but are rather being-with time. This reminds one not only of Merleau Ponty's (T962) observation that "Tine is, therefore,not a real process, not an actual succession that I am content to record. It arises from my relation to things" (p. 412), but also of Heidegger's (l962) assertion that we have our Being in time, but we do not exist in time; time exists in us. In other words, we are the condition for the existence of time and not the reverse.

Compatible with this change in temporality are the explicit statements that spirituality necessitates the relinquishing of one's past, and that one's past is "rubbish" (no. 22.). Hence being in-the world, for at least some devotees, entails a closedness to the past and being in the present.

This temporal discontinuity is compatible with explicit expressions by a nunber of Hare Krishna Devotees that their present mode of being is radically different from that of their pre movement mode of being, that their world view has changed and that their transformation was like "... waking from a bad dream." (no.ll.).

The remaining descriptive statements were found to be compatible with the above Extended Description of becoming and being a member of the Hare Krishna m?vement.

PART III THE MAHARAJ JI PREMIES

119\

MAHARAJ JI PREMIE PROTOCOL ONE II)

INTERVIEWEE: /(1)I was driving along a road (laughs) on the way to Cape Town, and at that time of my life, I was really probing for some new exper ience I couldn't even say answers to life, but I was just exploring new realities that I was having different experiences on, which I had done through different drugs - and many different experiences many different people - travelling around the world a number of times having worked in a discotheque, and seeing a new existence, and heard music that was completely fresh - that was inspiring that I could identify it to a dream to a new world It just had more I couldn't say exactly what .... But I was travelling along the road, and I was in the back of the car - where I was travelling to Cape Town, with my wife and her parents. I was very stoned out of my head and, at that time, I had just started doing photography professionally and I was smoking a lot of dope, really enjoying myself under the images of the new world that awaited me. I was listening to a song Jimi Hendrix and I was totally merged with that song my eyes were closed and then I just heard a whacki and I opened my eyes and I kind of saw this bird just disintegrate into many pieces after having hit the windscreen of the car. I was immediately taken out of my euphoric state of concentration on the music and a question just came into my head at that second, like "Wow, that could've been me that could've been me", you know. It could have been as sudden as that. And "What is life? what is death? What is my existence?" /(2)and I guess that was a very big start for me well, I should say, a start in a conscious way./ (3)This whole experience with this bird, you know, it really shook me. It was really profound./(4)And I came back from Cape Town and I was really refreshed renewed. I just wanted to make a success out of what I was doing my photography - and within a couple of weeks we had decided to split

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from South Africa./(5)1 don't know why./(6)At that time, I got into reading a lot of Krishna murti books, and my sister had just finished her B.A. in psychology and was also into that, so we used to really share a lot./(7)And I was conscious that I needed to find somebody I needed to find somebody who knew more than me that could help me that could definitely teach me something about the truth./(8)And I went through an incredible change I don't know what pattern it was but it was within the space of a few weeks after I had come back from Cape Town. This kind of whole conscious search began - and I stopped eating flesh and I stopped eating fish, and eggs, and I stopped smoking cigarettes and I stopped smoking dope./(9)For the next few months, I went through quite an intense withdrawal 'cause my whole body was kind of getting completely new kinds of foods and I'd stopped smoking cigar ettes -/(1O)I had such motivation. I don't know what it was, but I just had this tremendous desire /(]1)Anyway, we left South Africa about l3 weeks later. Ne wanted to live in Europe, and just experience more we'd been to Europe a year before - we were stagnating in South Africa. We got to England and found my wife was pregnant. We were happy, 'cause we wanted a child. We were quite shocked when we saw London this time. It was a different experience from before, so we just ventured on./(12)It was like we were look ing for a new world a new age in a way. I had to find this something this age or this consciousness whatever it was./(]3)I felt I was starting on a journey of self deprivation. I mean, I was trying to become pure and I wouldn't eat canned foods and things like that./(14)I was really dedicated to doing it, but I had no balance at all/ (]5)but I couldn't see this at the time./(]6)Something was driving me something was driving me on through all these different experiences like abstaining from this, and abstaining from that, I was experiencing something but it wasn't a real thing it passed, you know /(]7)and then we went on, through quite a number of exper iences I don't think we need get into here, you know. I mean, they were all

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profound for me, in that year 1971 - because that was the year that (Guru Maharaj Ji came to the Nest), but at this time I didn't know - I hadn't even heard of Him./(]8)we then continued travelling, and went to Israel, because we wanted to live in the country, in a more natural way I didn't want to work in a routine, you know./(]9)Actually, I'd been offered a job in London, taking pics for a pornographic magazine, but I didn't want to get into that making money from feeding other people's consciousnesses with a very uninspiring,very just a dead-end, you know frustrate people even more./(20)So, we went to Israel, got into a fantastic kibbutz there were no Israelis there just people from all over. The kibbutz was vegetarian, which really suited us./(21)Ne stayed for a few months, but then we got into a political thing because the people that had come to the kibbutz before us were laying down all rules, and we said that, if this was going to be a life-commitment, then we should share. Any way, it didn't quite work out, so we left/(22)and lived in Tel Aviv until the baby was born it was a beautiful time, because 1 wasn't into much working doing photography. I was just shooting what I really loved to shoot, you know; that was nice. And I spent that whole time with my wife, you know, everyday, just the whole growing period. I used to go with her into the maternity home, you know, like, birth and death./(23)I knew that at that time something was working on me. I was reading a lot of Zen. I read a book, "what To Do Until The Messiah Comes" by Gunter an Esalen book. I tried meditating like they said, but it was very frustrating.

There was nothing tangible there. It was like trying to create something to meditate on but I really had this urge, that I wanted to know myself./ (24) when I look back at it now, I can see how I was just in this process of development just getting closer and closer to realizing what I wanted, you know./(25)The birth of my child was really a strong experience /(26)Any way, we didn't actually want to live in Israel, and we now had the responsi bility of a kid, so we decided to come back. It was as if something there

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was saying, "Go back" - which was strange, because we left South Africa, we left our friends, almost in a proud way, and now we had to humble our selves and admit, "D.K., something went wrong" but we knew that we should come back./(27)It was a very intense experience because all our friends they'd kind of just gotten into accepting what was going on around and started to adapt to that and the dreams and all the hopes of a new world seemed to be gone from them. That shocked me a lot, you know, because I didn't believe that that was the way it was supposed to be./(28)The first few months were really heavy. I used to cry to my wife, "Listen, I want to do something that's meaningful, you know. I don't want to just spend my life working, getting some money, living, saving some money, going overseas." It just didn't have any purpose it just didn't have any meaning. It was just like an emptiness. we'd done so much. we'd travelled around, we'd lived on islands, we'd met so many different kinds of people we'd experi mented with so many different kinds of new realities. He'd done so much together, you know, and nothing had really sustained us, you know./(29)All of it just seemed to be a step /(3D)and then we got this place and I got this job as a child photographer. Then I went to this shop to get some things for our child, and this woman at this shop said to me, "Have you seen the light? Have you heard the Music? Have you experienced the word? Have you tasted the Nectar?" but really strong not like I'm saying it - almost like four bullets just bop, bop, bop, bop.... It was really incre dible. Something knocked me really smashed ne. I just knew that that's what I wanted to experience. She said this (guru l4 years old) was coming in two day's time, and I should come to (satsanq) tonight. I said "Sure" but it never hit me until 1 walked out. This wave of love, of peace it was incredible./(3])I went to (satsang), although it was difficult because my wife was getting a market together, and so there'd be no one to look after the baby. Anyway, my parents looked after the baby for that

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night./(32)Hhen I went to (?d?sg?g), what really ovenwhelmed me was that there were so many different kinds of people/(33)and there was very high energy and I listened to what they were saying, and I just felt really good./(34)I couldn't really explain it. I had been feeling what they were saying all my life./(35)0ne thing that overwhelmed me, was that this exper ience was being offered the experience of God was being offered here./ (36)I bought a couple of magazines and read them. I didn't figure I was going to follow this up, but when (Maharaj Ji) came to South Africa, we went to the airport I took my cameras there were a lot of people there./ (37)Hhen (Maharaj Ji) arrived, He said a very incredible thing. I don't remember exactly what, it's written down somewhere ... He said, "Now that we're united in this Knowledge, we're brothers and sisters." I remember just looking through the camera the telephoto lens and there was just this beam./(38)It was almost as if I couldn't look anymore, 'cause it was too strong,/(3g)and what I saw in His face was such universality like He had a part of every kind of person in His face. It wasn't physical like His face cut up into segments. It was definitely a spiritual feeling of universality. I just felt all being in Him./(40)I was feeling incredible at this point. I just really felt this pull./(41)Anyway, to cut a long story short, I devoted my life to (Maharaj Ji the Messiah). The (Messiah) had come./(42)My friends thought I was nuts, you know (laughs) but I was totally impenetrable. All I could see was just this love, you know. They all said I was crazy like I was twisted./(43)I don't quite remember what happened in the next week, but I went to a lot of (satsang) and listened to (Maharaj Ji) speaking even in (Hindi). Just watching Him was just a really incredible experience, you know there was just this incredible experience. when I received Knowledge, it was real to me, you know. when I practised light technique, I saw light, blazing light, you know and also a really soothing sound. I didn't experience much of the Nectar at that

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stage./(44)I just had no control over what was happening, but it was happening./(45)I just knew this was what I was searching for. Maybe I just wanted it so much to experience who I was what my purpose was / (46)that it was almost like I was being magnetized. It felt like that.

There was no way that I could stop it, you know my whole being was just drawn to this love, you know./(47) Having Knowledge is the difference between death and living. It's the difference between sleeping and being awake, you know. You're asleep; you're in a room, and you're not conscious of the room.

You're in the world, and you're not conscious of the world you're not conscious that you're alive, that you're breathing you're not conscious of anything. And when you wake up, you know there's so much to experience. I mean, that's the difference. There's so much. I mean, I couldn't even put it into words./(48)I wouldn't want to go on living without Knowledge, because I know there'd be no point to it. I know the whole point of being alive is to really experience myself to really know who I am. Otherwise, what's the point?/ (49)we're just going on and on. That's what I was doing before. I was so blind. I can see how I was completely lost in the world I didn't know which way to turn, which was the right road, which was the left road, which was any road!/(5o)And now, it's so clear there's no confusion as to where I'm going, there's no confusion as to actually where I am either./

INTERVIEWER: would you elaborate on what you mean by this?

INTERVIEWEE:/(51) Well, where I am now, this very moment I am in an opportunity of realization, of something which is perfect right now some thing which is infinite, something which is perfect. I'm in the opportunity of realizing the opportunity of eternity, now, of going into the very depths of my consciousness to get to a point of pure consciousness. It's there, and I experience it. And where I'm going is to this very thing. So my destination is the same. So where I'm going and where I am are the same./ (52)It's a matter of becoming merged into it, because there's still a gap

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between my constant conscious awareness of it, of this experience, of this Truth, and the Truth itself. I'm not always in this experience, you know, and that's my desire my desire is to be with it always, for ever, you know - not for a short space of time, because it's something I know I've experienced. It really goes beyond time./(53)I can't tell you any more.

There are no words to describe the difference. It's very vast. But I would say that what I've said was about it. what I'm trying to say is that I can see now. I can see what's real. I can see what's real. It's like if you're in my dark room. It's completely dark and you've never been there before. So what you do is, you knock down things; you break things, and nothing ever gets done - you're just confused, you know, but somebody puts on the light, and you know exactly what you should do, you know. You can see everything and so you can really get things done,/(54)you understand?/

INTERVIEWER: Uhhu.

INTERVIEWEE: ../(55)and that is what I've experienced, by receiving this (Knowledge.)

INTERVIEWER: Thank you, (Mike).

INTERVIEWEE: No, that's 0.K. I enjoyed it.

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INFORMATIONAL QUESTIONNAIRE PROTOCOL ONE 11) NAME:_§MA?ABAQ_Q1_EB§MI§) ______ __ DATE: ______________________ __ (or initials if preferred) Please write down your experience of the interview which you have just had.

You could, for example, state your attitude and feelings toward the inter viewer and the interview situation, as well as any other feelings you have toward the situation you have just been in.

- 0ooOooo - I thoroughly enjoyed the interview as I felt that I was able to give myself completely over to the interview. I was initially dubious as to whether I would be able to speak to you with a tape-recorder switched on,but I found that I soon becane used to this.

I have probably given you all the essential information (as close as you'll ever giet (sic) unless you actually take Knowledge). I could have gone on for ever but it would not have added much to what I have said (I do not think that it would).

- -ooo0ooo -

127 LIST OF NATURAL MEANING UNITS MAHARAJ JI PREMIE PROTOCOL ONE - (I) R = REPETITION I = IRRELEVANT = I was suddenly struck by the question of the meaning of my life while I was exploring various modes of reality. (see 2,3,l0,l2,l4,l6,23 and 48.) = lhismarked the beginning of my conscious search for the meaning of my existence. (see l and 3.) = I-was shaken byea partieular experience and-this proveked my-questian+ng my existence. (R) - (see l,2,23 and 48.) = I-wished to be a successful photographer so I left South Africa. (I) = I do not know why. (I) = I was reading Eastern philosophies as well as being interested in psychology.

= I became conscious that I required somebody to teach me about the Truth.

= My conscious search for Truth began and I rapidly underwent a drastic change and abstained from some of my previous habits. (see 9 and l3.) = I went through an intense physiolegical withdrawal during the next few months as a consequence of my abstinence. (R) (see 8 and l3.) = I had a tremendous desire to find the Truth. (see l,l2,l4,l6,23 and 48.) = we were stagnating in South Africa and so we left for Europe but were disillusioned.

= I had to find this new consciousness. (see l, l0,l4,l6,23 and 48.) = I was starting a journey of self deprivation in that I was attempting to become pure. (see 8 and 9.) = I was very dedicated to this quest but my approach was not balanced.

(see l,l0,l2,l6,23 and 48.) = I could not see this (item 14.) at the time.

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I felt driven to find this new consciousness but my abstinence was only transitory. (see l,l0,l2,l4,23 and 48.) I had a number of experiences which, retrospectively, were profound because Guru Maharaj Ji had come to the West in that same year.

My wife and I wanted to live naturally rather than according to a routine.

I did not want to make money from feeding other people's consciousness with uninspiring things it is a dead-end and only serves to frustrate people even more.

we went to live on a kibbutz (an organized community life-style).

The kibbutz did not wcrk out because of difficulties between the various members and so we moved on. (I) For a while we lived in Tel Aviv doing what I wanted - taking photographs and being with my wife. (I) I knew that something was working on me and I had this urge to know myself. (see l,3,l0,l2,l4,l6 and 48.) From my present perspective I can see how I was developing towards the realization of my goals. (see 29.) The birth of my ehild was a very strong experience. (I) Ne knew that we had to return to South Africa although it meant humbling eurselves as we had left in a proud mood. (I) I was extremely dismayed that all our friends had lost their hope of a new consciousness and had conformed to mainstream values.

Despite our broad spectrum of experiences and activities, life still held very little meaning - just an emptiness.

This (see item 28:) just seemed te be a step towards eneLs goal. (R) (see 24 ) when I heard about Guru Maharaj Ji I had this incredible and intense experience and I just knew that this was what I had been searching for.

(see 40,4l,45 and 48.) Although it was difficult I managed to attend satsang.

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I was overwhelmed by the fact that so many different types of people followed Guru Maharaj Ji.

There was a high energy level at satsang and listening to what was being said I felt really good.

I felt that I was able to identify and empathise with his followers (premies).

I was overwhelmed that the experience of God was being offered.

Although I doubted whether I would actually become a follower, I decided to visit the airport when Guru Maharaj Ji arrived there.

On seeing Guru Maharaj Ji there was just this strong beam. (see 38.) It was almost as if I could not look anymore because the beam was so strong. (see 37.) I had a spiritual feeling of universality I felt all being in Him.

I felt a great pull towards Guru Maharaj Ji. (see 30,4l,42,43,44,45 and 46.) I believed the Messiah had come I dedicated my life to Him. (see 30, 40,42,43,45 and 48.) Although my friends considered me to be crazy I was not perturbed all I could perceive was this love. (see 40 and 4l.) I intensely enjoyed listening to and watching Guru Maharaj Ji and my initiation was an incredible experience. (see 40 and 41.) I had no control over what was happening. (see 40 and 46.) I knew that this was what I had been searching for to experience who I was and my purpose in life. (see 30,40 and 41.) I felt as if I were being magnetized - my whole being was drawn to this love. (see 40,41 and 44.) I have changed so greatly due to Knowledge that it cannot be adequately expressed in words. (see 53.)

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I would not want to live without Knowledge as the purpose of life is to know who I really am. (see l,3,l0,l2,l4,l6,23,30 and 4l.) Prior to receiving Knowledge I was completely lost in the world I was confused. (see 53.) I am no longer confused about where I am and where I am going.

(see 53.) I now have the opportunity of realizing eternity of experiencing pure consciousness which is beyond time.

My desire is to be constantly aware of the eternal Truth.

I have changed greatly: while previously I was "blind" now I can "see" I am no longer confused. (see 47,49 and 50.) Be you understand? (I) Everything that I have mentioned has been experienced through Knowledge.

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CONSTITUENT PROFILE MAHARAJ JI PREMIE PROTOCOL ONE Q11

At a stage in my life when I was exploring various modes of reality I became acutely aware of the need to search consciously for the meaning of my life.

I was interested in psychology and, through my reading of Eastern philosophies, I was aware of the need for a Master to teach one about the Truth. In a short period of time I undenuent a dramatic change and abstained from many of my indulgences as I had a tremendous desire to find the Truth to find this new consciousness. I started on a journey of selfideprivation in that I was attemp ting to become pure and, although I was very dedicated to this quest, retrospect ively I can see that my approach was not balanced. Although I felt driven to find this new consciousness, my abstinence was only transitory. We were stag nating in South Africa and so we left for Europe but were disillusioned. Ne wanted to live naturally rather than according to an imposed routine, and, furthermore, I did not want to make money from feeding other people's con sciousness with uninspiring things - it is a dead end and only serves to frus trate people even more. So we lived on a kibbutz for a period but, because of intra group difficulties, we decided to leave. we knew that we had to return to South Africa and I was extrenely dismayed that our friends had lost their hope of a new consciousness and had conformed to mainstream values.

During this stage I had a number of experiences which, retrospectively, were profound because Guru Maharaj Ji had come to the west in that same year. Given my present perspective, I can now see how I was developing towards the realiza tion of my goals, although, despite our broad spectrum of experiences and activities, life still held very little meaning - just an emptiness. when I fortuitously heard about Guru Maharaj Ji I had this incredible and intense experience and I just knew that this was what I had been searching for. I was overwhelmed that such a heterogeneous group of people were following Him

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as well as by the fact that the experience of God was being offered. There was a high energy at satsang and, listening to what was being said, I felt really good. I was able to empathise with these people as our personal histories appeared to be similar. Although I had doubted whether I would actually follow Guru Maharaj Ji, I immediately felt attracted and there was this strong beam almost as if I could not look anymore. I had a spiritual feeling of universality - I felt all being in Him. I felt drawn to His love as if I were magnetized, and I had no control over what was happening. I devoted my life to Him, feeling that He was and is the Messiah. I was not perturbed by my friends' thinking that I was crazy, and my initiation exper ience was incredible. I now have the opportunity of realizing eternity of experiencing pure consciousness and my desire is to be constantly aware of the eternal Truth. It is not possible to express in words the effect that Knowledge has had upon my life, because I have changed so greatly save to say that, while previously I was lost in the world and confused, I am no longer, and that I would not want to live without Knowledge, as the purpose of life is to know who I really am.

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SECOND ORDER PROFILE MAHARAJ JI PREMIE - PROTOCOL ONE §I)

Became acutely aware of the urgent need to search consciously for the meaning of this life.

Searched in Eastern philosophies - aware of need for Master to teach one about the Truth.

Rapidly changed drastically - became abstinent; attempted to become pure - although approach imbalanced he was dedicated to this quest.

Had a number of experiences which, retrospectively, were profound due to the presence of Guru Maharaj Ji.

Did not wish to live according to an imposed routine,and inability to settle into any environment - felt he was stagnating in South Africa, disillusioned with Europe,and interpersonal difficulties in the kibbutz.

Did not wish to make money from feeding other people's consciousness with uninspiring things - dead-end and serves only to frustrate people even more.

Extremely dismayed that friends had lost hope of a new consciousness and had conformed to mainstream values.

Felt an emptiness - lacked meaning in life.

Felt an inmediate and overwhelming attraction for Guru Maharaj Ji had a spiritual feeling of universality and felt all being in Him.

Felt there was high energy at satsag was able to empathise and identify with the premies felt good.

Initiation experience was incredible.

Feels that his past contributed meaningfully to his present.

Alienated from his friends.

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Had no control over his joining the movement: felt drawn as if magnetized.

Not possible to express verbally the effect that Knowledge has had upon his life because change has been so great.

Aim of life is know thyself, hence does not want to live without Knowledge desires to be constantly aware of the eternal Truth.

was previously lost and confused, but no longer so.

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1MAHARAJ JI PREMIE PROTOCOL SEVEN (VII)

INTERVIEWEE:/ (Dwell, how I came to (Knowledge) when I was at school, I wasn't going to get into anything. I didn't have any thought of God or anything. I went travelling for a year. By the time I came back I was completely into trying to understand reality trying to understand what truth was, 'cause I'd realized much more about the nature of this world, especially the nature of creation especially to do with atoms and things like that./(2)1 really just came to (Knowledge) without me doing anything about it. You know, it was something that just happened. when I went to college, I saw a poster of (Guru Maharaj Ji). I went along to (satsang), and three months later I had received (Knowledge)and was practising it./ (3)For sone tine before that, I had a big desire to realize Truth to realize what my conceptions of God were./(4)And that's what this (Knowledge) has done. It's kind of wiped out all conceptions and everything. It's wiped out all my spiritual concepts,/(5) and it's just a matter of practising it now. I guess by practising it, you know, every day, you feel whole - you feel complete within yourself. You feel peaceful./(6)And say, looking back I've (had Knowledge) four years know I can see it changed me a great deal, but I can't say how, except that I know I'm on the true purpose of this life.

I know conceptually, I know what the aim of this life is. I know, again conceptually, I know that this universe is light, this universe is one there is only one reality permeating everything, and I know it's my aim and my duty to be realizing it./(7)And like by practising (Knowledge), I know that this is happening not in any way that I expected it to happen./(8)It's a matter of losing your own identification with yourself losing your what ever you relate to yourself; how you relate to the world what you think people think you are, you know, everything, all that gets lost. You're just

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Living in the moment. You're just living in the present, you're living everyday./(9)But like there's another side to it, which is to understand the value of this Knowledge. we can see practically that we're alive, that we've been given birth, that we're here - and what's the point of it? What's the point of this creation? What's the point of being here? what's the point of life? You know, each of us have a body, and this world is going on and we're all doing things but what are we all doing them for? Where's the world going to? which is the same thing, you know. We're supposed to be here to get back to our true nature which is one with every thing, which is part of everything, which is within everything that's the feeling we get within ourselves, you know the incomplete feeling, where we're not one, where we're not flowing with everything else. we feel it somehow or other. But after receiving (Knowledge) and after practising it, without intellectually realizing how it happens, you realize that you are feeling in-flow you're feeling good./(10)I mean, I've had this experience before, like on drugs /(1]>I've had a happy life basically. I mean, I've had an easy life, but I was searching before I received (Knowledge); I've stopped now. I guess that was the difference. I wasn't searching any more.

I wasn't looking in any scriptures. I was hardly reading any more books doing anything. I wasn't searching./(]2)I stopped taking drugs, and things like that 'cause I had no need for them without even thinking about it./ (13)That's the difficulty, you know; I can't really say how I've changed, because it's all beyond words. It's like the experience of life is beyond words. It really is, you know. They say it's beyond words, but it really is It's beyond ideas, it's beyond putting into boxes, and so, if you try and talk about it, you'll just as soon as you talk, you have to put it into boxes./(]4)It% like this (Knowledge) when you (meditate) Basically what you do is when you (meditate), is you stop your thinking process, and you start living. You're not (meditating), you're thinking. In other words,

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thoughts are a slow thing, compared to reality, compared to the being, compared to Truth thoughts live with past and present, you know. when we're speaking we're also using thoughts, and speaking is a limited thing./ (]5)You can't convey you can never convey the experience. The only thing is to take the experience - practise it yourself, and see what it does for you./(]6)And I promise you, it'll be nothing like you've thought really, no matter how long you've been thinking about (Knowledge) and maybe doing all this (referring to my interviewing), when you actually (take it), it's going to be a different experience,/(]7)and it's really good to be open to it, totally open to it, you know prepared for anything - not prepared for what you think it will be, just because you've heard so many people talking about it. You see, you must be open to everything people everything./ (18)The thing that stops us being open is our mind, is our thought-process, is our own way of relating to the world, you know./(19)I look at something, and I judge it, and I think, "That's good", and I look at something else, and I think, "That s bad", and you block off things and you open yourself to some things, and you block off other things./(20)If you're practising (Knowledge), you're (meditating), and you've turned your consciousness, you've turned your awareness inside yourself into a very easy flow, into a perfect thing, and what you're doing is you're not directing your conscious ness outwards and onto the world, and judging, which is basically what we do all the time evaluating, saying "I like it" "I don't like it" You're just satisfied within yourself. You're not looking for an experience outside So, whatever experiences come to you, you know that they're just being given to you, you know, they're part of your life, and you accept them good or bad, up or down, you know, one type of person or another type of person it makes no difference, because you're not in the way to judge it. You're not in the way to think, "Oh, 1 like this" which is your own ego./(21))/lhich is why God loves everything, you know, because He doesn't have any judgement

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in that sense, you know, at all. He's just open to everything; He's nature, He's perfect. You know, nature is the rain falls on evil people and on good people. It doesn't make any difference./(22)And that's the same when you're experiencing this (game). I guess that's what it does./ (23)Before (Knowledge), you're looking, you're seeking, you're desiring satisfaction after (Knowledge) you're getting satisfaction from a constant source. It never leaves you. It's always there always beautifu (24)and if you're practising, then the world appears like a film on the out side you know, it's very colourful, it's very beautiful, but you don't involve yourself in it, in the same way, because you're satisfied with your life./(25)You know, before I received (Knowledge), I think I was moving towards a oneness you know, I just called it oneness, but I wasn't sure what that was. I wanted the experience, you see./(26)I often wanted to be alone. I didn't, sort of, socialize that much. with (Knowledge) I have changed quite a bit. I don't socialize too much with non (premies), just not because I don't want to, or want to, just the situation I'm in, I'm usually with (Eremies). But I'm much more open in groups and things like that, which I wasn't before. Actually, I've become more childlike childlike is openness, you know; being a child is being open to everything being innocent to everything, and not judging./(27)It's hard./(28)You also appreciate creation, all around you, you know. The feeling that you get from (Knowledge) is the feeling of beauty. You look at creation and it's beautiful./(29)Everyone knows that it's beautiful, but, most of the time, they're not feeling beautiful, you know. They're feeling hung up, they're feeling tight, wound up but by (meditating), you free yourself from this ceaseless wandering of your mind, if you like, you free yourself from the anxieties that you've created out of mid air, and you experience what this universe is which is beauty, which is bliss (- sat-chit-amanda -) it's Truth, consciousness is bliss./(3O)This universe isn't just Truth it's also bliss, it's also a feeling of joy, it's also something very nice, which

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you get when you practise, you know, when you're realizing that feeling comes which a child is feeling. That's why they're always smiling./(3])Like what are we doing in this life, you know? we're here. Life is going on.

we don't know what life is, but we have certain feelings deep inside us, we want peace, we want happiness. we want to feel complete, and those feelings nay come out and they may not come out. If they start coming out, then you start searching. Then, after you've searched, and you've found you know what it's all about, you're just here just to be experiencing life. we're not experiencing our own desires./(32)I look at everybody in this world; you know, they're just getting into their trips. They just feel, "Ah, I want a motor boat", so they work for a motor boat, and they go out and buy a motor boat five minutes later, they've lost their pleasure of the motor boat.

It's really like that Ne invent our life-style./(33)Because we cease to think of ourselves, we stop inventing our own way of life, we just settle down to what we've been given. Settle down into the fact that we didn't even make our own bodies, we didn't even make our own way of thinking. we didn't make this creation. So we just surrender to it./(34)we let go, and enjoy it. Everything becomes perfect. Everything happens. It really does too. It's like magic./(35)There's one thing you really have to have with (Knowledge), and that's trust, thatis total faith in it, and as soon as you give your faith, then your faith is rewarded. If you don't give your faith, then it'll never happen. For instance, like speaking now. I could have never spoken in those words before. You've got to put a meaning behind those words. It's like we have to trust one another. It's like me and Ingrid, if we love one another, and if we don't trust one another, then maybe she'll receive that feeling from me or I'll receive that feeling from her. She'll feel it in her life, and I'll get a feedback from that, and it'll all go wrong. That's the sane with this (Knowledge)./(36)(Guru Maharaj Q1) said, "Give me your love and I'll give you peace." He's open to us

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completely, all the time, but it's because we're not open to Him, because we don't open ourselves up. In other words, we don't trust Him. We don't give our trust./(37)And it's so beautiful with (Knowledge), because it's not a blind faith. It's not a blind trust. You're given four practical techniques which you practise they're very simple to practise and you learn exactly the thing it does in your life, 'cause it uses up time, like time in (meditation) instead of thinking, which is putting your trust in God; in other words, not thinking for yourself, but O.K., I've got this problem; I'm not going to think about it; I'm just going to (meditate). And you realize that Heknows about it. I mean, if you've got a problem, but you don't know the answer, you keep thinking about it, but you don't solve it. That's why a problem is a problem. If you (meditate), you take your self into a clear place so that, when you come to deal with the problem, you can see clearly what you have to do to deal with the problem. Mental problems basically don't exist. They only exist, as they say, because they're in your mind. You know, your mind is just going on, and you think of some thing. Like, for instance, I'm sitting here, and I'm thinking "Oh, I've got to hitch to Cape Town what if it rains? what if something happens", you know, and I'm just inventing a hundred problems that don't even exist. If you're (meditating), you're not even in that place. I'm just right now, enjoying myself in the present, and when that time comes, I'm still enjoying myself. Those problems won't even exist. You don't conjure them up. It's the same with ordinary, say, physical problems, dealing with - like I've found this recently. with my experience of (Knowledge), I'm able to deal with physical things, just practical things like fixing something, or going to a shop or fixing a washing machine or anything like that. I can do it much clearer that I ever did it before; even my physical way of relating in the world./(38)! think (Knowledge) is everything. Alright, I've geen growing older and getting more mature, but if it wasn't for (Knowledge), I'd still

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be - I don't know where I'd be. I can't think of it like that because I've got (Knowledge). I feel very much part of this (Knowledge) really./ (39)I could digress, you know, and go into so much talking about (Knowledge)./ (4o)Like (Knowledge) is within us. Our life is within us, you know. we're born to be with this life. There is no alternative. Every other alternative is what we call the mind. And the mind, really, when you take (Knowledge), after you've practised (Knowledge) for some time, you really begin to realize that what the scriptures, or what the books, say - that everything is an illusion. It really is an illusion, you know. Like today, I'm sitting here, doing this. If you hadn't come, I'd be doing something else./(41)So many different things can be going on, and usually the nature of things is to fall down, you know, is to get worse and worse and worse, is to dissipate, and that's how things also happen emotionally, you know. You waste your energy, and things get worse and worse and worse. But with (Knowledge, with meditation), things get better and better, because you're gaining energy./(42)It's impossible to explain I really feel that I've said all I can say. I mean I can go on forever, because (Knowledge) is unlimited./(43)I really think that an interview is really it's a funny thing. It's really interesting. It's really a far out thing to be doing, but on the other hand, when you've taken (Knowledge), and after you've practised (Knowledge), I'm sure you're going to realize that the whole thing - although it may have been a good experience it was kind of, absolutely nothing to do with (Knowledge), because you're going to come to a point where you're going to realize in your life, you know, the miracle of this life, and the time that's passing by, and we're getting older, you know.

and that death is approaching, kind of thing, and the use of this life and the grace, you know. The absolutely incredible thing is to have received (Knowledge), which hardly anyone in the world has received, which is the purpose of the whole entire creation, you know, throughout millenia, which every scripture was written about, and if you get that feeling inside your self, that you want it, and you want to practise it, then along with - to

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the intensity of that feeiing, you will experience it, and you"l1 find it's an individual experience, you know. It's something incredible, that you cannot have got from anyone else. It's al1 within yourseif. I recommend it./

INTERVIEWER: Thanks, (Dave).

INTERVIEWEE: That's 0.K. I really hope that you get it together.

I really enjoyed it.

143

INFORMATIONAL QUESTIONNAIRE PROTOCOL SEVEN - §VII2

NAME: _§MA?ABAQ_Ql_EB§M1§) _____ __ DATE: ______________________ __ (or initials if preferred) Please write down your experience of the interview which you have just had.

You could, for example, state your attitude and feelings toward the inter viewer and the interview situation, as well as any other feelings you have toward the situation you have just been in.

ooo0ooo This Knowledge is beyond any spoken word. I could go on forever and still you would only learn a certain limited amount about Knowledge. You have to experience it. I felt relaxed throughout the interview and did not feel that you were imposing.

Sat Chit Ananda -- ooo0ooo

144

LIST OF NATURAL MEANING UNITS MAHARAJ JI PREMIE PROTOCOL SEVEN (VII)

R = REPETITION
I = IRRELEVANT

Although I was not initially philosophically nor religiously concerned I became desirous of understanding the nature of reality after travelling for a period of time. (see 3 and 25.) Knowledge was something that just happened to me.

Prior to receiving Knowledge I began to desire to understand God and to realize the Truth. (see l and 25.) By erasing all my previous conceptions, Knowledge has aided me in understanding God and in realizing the Truth. (see 8.) In order to feel peaceful and whole it is just a matter now of daily practising Knowledge.

Knowledge has greatly changed me in that I now have a purpose to realize the unity of the universe. (see 9.) I know that through practising Knowledge, this realization (see item 6) is happening although in an unexpected fashion. (see l6.) It (see item 6.) is a matter of losing one's constructs and being present centred. (see 4.) T The value of this Knowledge is that one begins to feel in harmony with the universe to feel good. (see 6.) I have previously experienced this but on drugs.

Although I had a happy and easy life.I was nevertheless searching for something, but now I no longer feel that I have to. (see 23 and 31.) I stopped taking drugs because I no longer felt the need for them.

It is diffieult te express in words haw I have changed.(R) - (see l5.)

145

Meditation (a form of practice in realizing Knowledge) inhibits the thinking process which is limited in comparison with reality and so starts one living.

It is impossible to convey in words the experience of Knowledge one can only experience it oneself. (see l3.) i guarantee that your experience oF-Know¥edge will-net be as you-expeeted it-to be.(I) (see also 7.) It is important to be totally open to Knowledge and, in fact, to be open to everything. (see 22 and 33.) It is our way of relating to the world our constructs that prevents us from being open. (see l9.) We close ourselves to certain possibilities because of the constructs we hold. (see 18.) Through Knowledge one becomes inner directed rather than being outer directed as well as judgemental. (see 22 and 33.) Because God is non judgemental, He is open to and loves everything and He is perfect.

Knowledge gives you an-openness to and a love-fer the-werld. (R) (see l7, 20 and 28.) Hhile prier te reeeiving Knewledge one is~eentinually-seeking for satis Faction; aFter-reeeiving Knowledge ene is continually satisfied. (R) (see ll and 24.) Through Knowledge the world appears to be beautiful and you are involved in it differently because you are satisfied. (see 23,28 and 29.) Prior to receiving Knowledge, I was working towards a oneness and, although I was not really sure what this was, I nevertheless wanted this experience.

(see l and 3.) Prior to receiving Knowledge I wanted to be alone much of the time while now I am open to fellow man I have become childlike, being open to everything and being innocent to everything. (see 33.)

146

1= This (see item 26.) is difficult.

= Through Knowledge I appreciate the creation and have a feeling of beauty. (see 22,24,253 and 30.) = Knowledge frees one from anxieties and tensions so that one is able to experience the universe as it really is beautiful. (see 24,28 and 33.) = Through meditation one feels that the universe is more than just Truth one also gets a feeling of joy. (see 28.) = Bnee the ~desi re For peace; happi nesrs and c ompl eteness has enuenged , than one begins to ~sear eh and, havi ng ended th i s searc hr ene~ean exponioaca l ='r'Fe as-i E real l~y is rather than ac c ord i ng to oneLs desires. (R) (see ll and 33.) = Everyone is seeking pleasure, but they only manage to gain it temporarily.

= He eease-to 'ehi nk of our sel ves -and we ac eepe Life as Jae have been gi van i t (R) (see l7,20,26,29 and 31.) = we surrender to creation and everything becomes perfect.

= In order for Knowledge to be efficacious one must have total faith.

= Guru Maharaj Ji is completely open to us but it is we who often are not open to Him.

= It is good to have Knowledge because it is not a blind faith but a trust in God and it helps one to deal with mental and physical problems by being present centred.

= Knowledge is everything to me. (see 40.) = ¥ eeald talk so much about Knewl edge. (I) (see also 42.) = Knowledge is the life within us and all else is an illusion. (see 38.) = Through meditation things improve while actually the nature of things is to get worse.

= 1 feel thatI have said alI that 1 ean say altheugh I could go emfor eve|= besause Knewledge is unlimited. (I) (see also 39.)

147

I think that this interview is interesting but yea vi':1» eeme to a point where you M44 have to experience-Knowledge for yourself since it cannot be experienced v?ear?eusly and you have to realize hat aetua? y your interviews have very lttle to do with Knowledge Rae}?. (I)

148

CONSTITUENT PROFILE MAHARAJ JI PREMIE PROTOCOL SEVEN (VIIL

Although I was not initially philosophically nor religiously concerned, I became desirous of understanding the nature of reality after travelling for a period of time. It was at this stage when I was desirous of understanding God and realizing the Truth that Knowledge just happened to ne and allowed me to understand these things by erasing all prior conceptions that I might have had and by being present centred. It is now a matter of daily practice of Knowledge to keep peaceful and whole. I have greatly changed in that I now have a purpose to realize the universal unity and I know that, through practising Knowledge, this is happening, although in an unexpected fashion.

Furthermore, Knowledge is valuable, since one begins to feel a harmony with the universe one begins to feel good, which I had not experienced before other than through drugs. Although previously I had a happy and easy life, I was nevertheless searching for something, but now I no longer feel that I have to: once the desire for peace, happiness and completeness has emerged, then one begins to search and, having ended this search, one can experience life as it really is rather than according to one's desires. By inhibiting the thinking process which is limited in comparison with reality medita tion is able to start one living, and, although the experience of Knowledge cannot be verbally conveyed one can only experience it oneself - it is never theless important to be totally open to Knowledge and, in fact, to be open to everything. It is our way of relating to the world our constructs that prevents us from being open, and so we close ourselves to certain possibilities Through Knowledge one becomes inner directed rather than being outer-directed as well as being judgemental. Because God is non judgemental, He is open to and loves everything and He is perfect. Through Knowledge the world appears to be beautiful, and, because one is satisfied, one's involvement is different

149

from what it was previously. Prior to receiving Knowledge I wanted to be alone much of the time, while now I am more open to fellow-man I have become childlike, being open and innocent to everything, which can be difficult. Furthermore, all anxieties and tensions are alleviated so that one is able to experience the universe as it really is beautiful and one also gets a feeling of joy. Everyone seeks pleasure, but they only manage to gain it temporarily, while we cease to think of ourselves and accept life as we have been given it. By surrendering to creation, every thing becomes perfect. Total faith is essential if Knowledge is to be efficacious and, while Guru Maharaj Ji is completely open to us, it is we who are not always open to Him. Knowledge is not blind faith but a trust in God, and it helps one to deal with mental and physical problems by being present-centred. Furthermore, while the nature of things is to get worse, with meditation they continually improve. Knowledge is everything to me and it is the life within us while all else is illusory.

150

SECOND ORDER PROFILE MAHARAJ JI PREMIE PROTOCOL SEVEN (VII)

Became desirous of understanding the nature of reality and of God.

Knowledge fulfilled this desire.

Knowledge erased all previous conceptions of reality.

Knowledge just happened to him.

By practising meditation daily one remains peaceful and whole.

Has been greatly changed by Knowledge.

Now has a purpose the realization of a universal unity knows that this is happening although in an unexpected fashion.

One begins to feel in harmony with the universe; one begins to feel good had not experienced this before other than through drugs.

Although had a happy and easy life was unable to stop searching until received Knowledge: once the desire for happiness and completeness emerges the search begins and only once it has ended can one experience the universe as it really is rather than according to one's desires.

Meditation allows one to start living by inhibiting one's thoughts.

It is important to be totally open minded; it is our constructs that close us off from certain possibilities.

Through Knowledge which cannot be experienced vicariously one becomes more inner directed and less judgemental.

God is open to and loves everything He is perfect.

with Knowledge the world appears beautiful and joyous.

Because a premie is satisfied, his involvement in the world is different from what it was previously.

Prior to receiving Knowledge, wanted to be alone much of the time while now he is more open to fellow man has become childlike in being open and innocent to everything can be difficult.

Total faith is essential if Knowledge is to be efficacious.

Meditation alleviates all anxiety and tension so that one can experience the universe as it really is.

Guru Maharaj Ji is completely open to us although we are not always open to Him.

Knowledge is not a blind faith but a trust in God and it helps one to deal with one's mental and physical problems.

Completely dedicated to Knowledge feels it is the life within us while all else is illusory feels that there is continual improvement with Knowledge.

Hierarchical Order l l 2

1252

HIERARCHICAL CATEGORIZATION PERTAINING T0 THE MAHARAJ J1 PREMIES

Meditation calms me, helps me to relax, starts me living and stops me thinking, clears my mind, more happy, more satisfied, alleviates all anxiety, more harmonious, feels calmer, less defensive, more natural and spontaneous, have peace, can be myself without pretense. 87.50%(l4) (II;l9.)(III;l3.) (IV;25,29.) (V;lO.) (VI;l4.) (VII;8,9,l0,l8.) (VIII;ll.) (IX;8.) (X;ll.) (XI;l4,l9.) (XII;l3.) (XIII;l5,l8.) (XV;l8.) (XVI;8.) Have a purpose, can see a purpose in all life situations, having a purpose none of my actions are futile, have a direction, sees life as a challenge. 75.00%(l2) (II;9.) (III;l2.) (IV;30.) (V;l3.) (VI;l6.) (VII;7.) , (VIII;6,l2.) (IX;2,6.) (X;7.) (XI;ll.) (XIII;l4.) (XIV;l5.) Has shy now more open, more friendly and accepting of other people, more tolerant of other ethnic groups, can relate more easily , feels closer to people, more considerate of others, more involved with people, less alienated, deeper relationships with people, kind and selfless. 68.75% (ll) (II;l0,ll.) (m;9.) (1v;23.) (v;11.) (v1;1s.) (VII;ll,l6.) (VIII;9,l0.) (x;2s.) (x11;12.) (><v;1s.) (xv1;9.)

153

No longer enjoy what I used to enjoy, many habits changed, less inclined to engage in frivolities, feels that great change has occurred, changed completely and rapidly. 68.75% (ll) (I;3,l5.) (II;l3.) (III;6.) (V;5.) (VII;6.) (VIII;7.) (XI;lO.) (XIII;l3.) (XIV;8,l4.) (XV;l5.) (XVI;6.) Introduced to Knowledge by a friend. 68.75% (ll) . (11;2.) (111;s.) (1v;2o.) (v;1.) (v1;1.) (x;4.) (x1;1.) (XlI;3.) (x111;11.) (x1v;1.) (xv;a.) Felt friendship, felt accepted and happy, very impressed by unity and sincerity, attracted to satsang, impressed that premies always looked happy, never doubted validity of Know ledge, means everything to me completely dedicated to Know ledge. 62.50% (l0) (II;2,6.) (III;3.) (V;2.) (VI;l3.) (VII;2l.) (VIII;l,2.) (XI;5,9.) (XIII,ll.) (x1v;4.) (xvx;4.) Becane acutely aware of urgent need to consciously search for the meaning of his life, felt he was stagnating in South Africa, began to feel that there was more to life, materially success ful but not satisfied, felt emptiness, no meaning, had a nagging feeling, searching for an answer to life,lacked motivation to do anything is now more motivated lacked ambition. V 50 00% <0) (I;l,8.) (III;l.) (IV;ll,l6.) (VI;5,8,9,l2.) (X;3.) (XI;6,l7.) (XII;l,2,5.) (XIII;l,3,5.)

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Now lead a more stable life, feel more in control, able to remain calm in the midst of confusion, more inner directed and less judgemental, more organized, Knowledge helps one to deal with one's mental and physical problems it promotes a continual improvement, Knowledge is a prac tical life style, gives me a firm basis, helped me in everything, life not possible without Knowledge, Know ledge is an effective method of spiritual realization. 43.75% (7) | (III;ll.) (VII;l2,Z0,21.) (VIII;8.) (X;5,26.) (XI; 17,18.) (XII;7.8.) (XIV;7,ll.) Initially sceptical about Knowledge, not initially impressed, p1'em1les' beliefs conflicted with own beliefs, initially cynical but interested, initially felt that Knowledge was below my dignity, initially had reservations. 37.50% (6) (II;l4.) (XI;3,4.) (XII;4.) (XIV;2.) (XV;5.) (XVI;3.) Received much from satsng, felt my questions were being answered, Knowledge fulfilled desire to understand nature of reality and of God, felt I was growing psychologically, my conflicts were resolved. 37 50% (5) (IV;2l.) (V;9.) (VII;l,2.) (IX;8.) (XIV;l3.) (XV;3.) Searched in the scriptures, empathised with Eastern philosophy. 31 25% (5) (I;2.) (IV;l9.) (VIII;4.) (XIII;6.) (XVI;l.) No longer confused, was confused, would still be confused if not for Knowledge. 3l.25% (5) (I;l7.) (VIII}5.) (XI;l7.) (XII1;2,8.) (XVi2.)

More sensitive and appreciative of nature, greater apprec iation of life, more aware of importance of human life, more aware of people and things, experienced a universal love.

(III;l4.) (V;l2.) (IX;3.) (XI;l6.) (XV;l9.) was curious about Knowledge, interested in Knowledge.

(X;4.) (XI;2.) (XII;4.) (XV;5.) (XVI;2.) Felt great identification with premies, Knowledge felt right, felt at home in satsamg.

(I;l0.) (II;5,9.) (IV;20.) (IX;l.) Felt drawn as if magnetized to the love of the premies, had no control over what was happening, Knowledge just happened to me.

(I;l4.)(VII;4.) (XI;7.) (XV;6.) Felt different from others, unable to relate to people, almost became very alienated, spent much time on my own_ (Before receiving Knowledge.) (IV;l,2,4,l3,28.) (V;7.) (VI;2,4.) (XIII;4.) Became abstinent but approach initially imbalanced, began attempting to purify myself.

(I;3.) (III;2.) (IV;l4.) 255

121.25% (s) 31.25% (5) 25.00% (4) 25.00% (4) 25.00% (4) 18.75% (3) Interested to learn about God, always interested in comparative religion, have always been interested in religion.

(II;l.) (XIV;3.) (XV;l.) was going through a trying period, all I had was lost.

(II;3.) (XII;6.) (XIII;7.) Knowledge is not as easy as I thought, being a premie is a difficult but rewarding occupation.

(II,7.) (VII;l6.) (IX;5.) Changes occurred gradually, changes occurred subtly.

(II;l2.) (VIII;7.) (IX;l4.) Felt that I was a complete failure, had no hope, more confident now.

(II;l5.) (IV;3.) (XII;8.) Many things occurred in a short time, Knowledge occurred rapidly.

(IV;24.) (X;l3.) (XIII;l2.) Stopped drinking and taking drugs.

(V;6.) (IX;l0.) (XV;7,8.) Knowledge erased all previous conceptions of reality, old concepts were broken down, now have a proper perspective.

(VII;3.) (IX;ll.) (XV;4.) 256

118.75% (3) 18.75% (a) 18.75% (3) 18.75% (8) 18.75% (3) 18.75% (8) 18.75% (3) 18.75% (8)

Has unable to experience things fully, can now experience life as it is rather than according to one's desires.

(VlI;9,l8.) (X;2.) (XIII;l6.)

Extremely dismayed that friends had conformed to main stream values, alienated from friends, drifted away from friends_(Before receiving Knowledge.) (1§7,1s.) (1v;12.) Felt immediate and ovenuhelming attraction to GMJ had a spiritual feeling of universality and felt all being in Him.

(I;9.) (II;8.) Initiation was an incredible experience, filled with a comforting presence.

(I;ll.)'(IV;22.) Realized that I'd been selfish to people, was selfish.

(II;l6.) (IV;l7.) ' Used to avoid problems rather than confront them, Knowledge made me face up to reality.

(II;l8.) (III;l0.) Have had lovely experiences after Knowledge, many pro found experiences have occurred after receiving Knowledge.

(III;7.) (IV;25.) 257 18.75% (3) 12.s0%(2) 12.so%(2) 12.50% (2) 12.50% (2) 12.50% (2) l2.50% (2)

158 Other techniques helped to increase confidence, but these techniques are limited. lZ.50% (2) (IV;9.) (X;l6.) Activities haven't changed, but motivation behind them has, involvement in world is different from what it was previously because satisfied. l2.5D% (2) (IV;3l.) (VII;l5.) Drugs gave a good experience in comparison with ordinary experience, felt in harmony with the universe through the use of drugs. l2.50% (2) (v1;1o.) (vx1;s.) Must practise Knowledge in order to feel peaceful and whole. l2.50% (2) (Vll;5.) (X;8,l7.) Positive attitude attitude toward God: God is open to and loves everything He is perfect, the Creator can help us to avoid destruction. l2.50% (Z) (VII;l3.) (IX;l7.) Positive attitude toward GMJ : GMJ is completely open, be lieves that GMJ is Christ. 12 50% (2) (VII;l9.) (XV;l3.) Not as fervent as I used to be. l2~50% (Z) (VIII;3.) (x1v;12.)

159

Most people's activities do not bring happiness, can see the futility of attachment. l2.50% (2) (VIII;l3.) (IX;l2.) Finds the world of today sickening, worldly desires pull people away from Knowledge.(After receiving Knowledge) 12.50% (2) (IX;l8.) (XV;l2.) People desire to be perfect but require encouragement, feels that man's true nature is one of positive qualities.

(After receiving Knowledge) 12.50% (2) (X;l4.) (XI;l3.) I've always believed in God, feels there is something beyond our thoughts, always believed the purpose of life is spirit ual. l2.50% (2) (x;1s,19.) (XIV;lO.) Parental disapproval of my involvement. l2.50% (2) (XI;8.) (XV;9.) Must be sincere, endeavour to practise Knowledge to the best of my ability. 12 59% (2) (XV;ll.) (XVI;5.) Became aware of the need for a Master to teach one about the Truth. 5 35% (1) (I;2.)

Had a number of experiences which, retrospectively, were profound due to the presence of Guru Maharaj Ji.

(I;4 ) Did not wish to live according to an imposed routine,and inability to settle into any environment.

(I;5 ) Did not wish to make money from feeding other people's consciousnesses with uninspiring things dead end and serves only to frustrate people even more.

(I;6.) Felt there was a high energy at satsarg.

(I;l0.) Past contributes meaningfully to his present.

(I;l2.) Aim of life is to know oneself, hence does not want to live without Knowledge desires to be constantly aware of the eternal Truth.

(I;l6.) Family member greatly changed by Knowledge.

(Il;4.) Initially not interested in Knowledge.

(lII;4.) 260 6.25% (1) 6.25% (l) 6.25% (1) 6.25% (1) 6.25% (1) 6.25% (l) 6.25% (l) 6.25% (l)

Felt disappointed with the initiation experience.

(III;5.) Before conformed without questioning, now question my activities.

(III;8.) Dropped out of school could not tolerate it.

(IV;5.) Positive attitude toward the world: Saw the world as beautiful. (Before receiving Knowledge) (IV;6.) Positive attitude toward people: Saw them as beautiful.

(Before receiving Knowledge) (IV;6.) Felt frustrated because of inability to express a beauty with himself. (Before receiving Knowledge) (IV;7.) , Loves sharing which brings people closer together.

(IV;8.) Began searching for a means to actualize myself.

(lV;l0.) Prior to Knowledge, I was becoming kinder to people.

(IV;l5.) I began desiring positive qualities in my life.

(IV;l8.) Initially too fanatical.

(IV;26.) Knowledge gave me support during difficult periods.

(IV;Z7.) Had always been sceptical about God.

(V;3.) Brought up in a Christian home.

(V;4.) Initial period of involvement with Knowledge was the most meaningful period of my life.

(V;8 ) No longer feels programmed.

(V;l4.) Feels that people tend to be critical of one another.

w?wemmwmgmwhw? (VI;3.) 262

16.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25%

Never feared death.

(VI;6.) Unable to accept myself fully.

(VI;ll.) Feels that purpose in life is being realized although in an unexpected fashion.

(VII;7.) One's constructs close one off from certain possibilities (VIl;ll.) Knowledge cannot be experienced vicariously.

(VII;l2.) Sees the world as beautiful and joyous.

(VII;l4.) (After receiving Knowledge) Through Knowledge has become childlike in being open and innocent to everything.

(v1x;1s.) Must have total faith if Knowledge is to be efficacious.

(VII;l7.) Knowledge is not a blind faith but a trust in God.

(VII;20.) 263

16.

125% (1) 25% (1) 25% (l) .25% (l) 25% (l) .25% (l) .2524 (1) .2s% (1) .252 (1)

164

People seek to be happy. 6.25% (1) (v111;1a.) Still searching; have not yet fully experienced Knowledge. 6.25% (l) (VIII;l5.) Only obstacle to God realization is man's constructs. 6.25% (l) (IX;4.) Things go right when I am selfless. 6.25% (1) (IX;7.) Feels that man is more than just body and mind. 6.25% (l) (IX;l3.) People come to Knowledge because unconsciously they are seeking perfection. 6.25% (l) (IX;l5.) Sees man as driving himself towards destruction. (After receiving Knowledge) 6.25% (l) (IX;l6.) Prior to Knowledge, I was growing in consciousness but was not aware of this, began living the life-style of a premie prior to Knowledge. 5 25% (1) (X;l,6.) Thought I was smart, but now can see that actually I was ignorant. V 5 25% (1) (X;lO.)

Feel that I must put more effort into it.

(X;l8.) Nature is a reflection of harmony.

(X;2O.) People desire to harmonise with something.

(X;2l.) Anger and fear control most of our lives.

(X;22.) People want to be noticed and loved but they are afraid.

(X;24.) Now feels part of everything unlike before.

(XI;l5.) Feels that changes are definitely due to Knowledge.

(XI;l8.) Felt good to be actively involved; the experience of being committed made a difference in my life.

(XII;9,l0.) Now I am able to concentrate on what I am doing.

(XII;ll.) was not impressed with the Jesus People.

(XIII;l0.) 265

16.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25%

Feels more responsible.

(XIII;l7.) Unable to relate to premies - both now and then.

(x1v;s.) Not surprised by the initiation experience.

(XIV;6.) Find it difficult to relate to people with futile life styles.

(XIV;9.) It is difficult to live according to the scriptures feels bad because not living according to the scriptures.

(xv;1o.11.) Feels that attachment is bad.

(XV;l4.) More generous.

(XV;l7.) Feels that friends were frightened by his change lest they had to sacrifice in order to change.

(XV;20.) Less hypocritical.

(XVI;7.) 6.

1266

125% (1) 25% (1) 25% (1) 25% (1) 25% (1) 25% (1) 251. (1) 25% (1) 25% (1)

167

No 1onger anti establishment - now concerned with changing people's consciousness. 6.25% (1) (XVI;10.)

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EXTENDED DESCRIPTION OF THE MEANING OF BECOMING AND BEING A MEMBER OF THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION

One of the major themes of becoming and being a member (premie) of the Divine Light Mission is that of an openness to the world which is perceived as being beautiful and joyous. Most of the premies, for example, stated that meditation (an integral aspect of being a premie) helped them to be more calm and to relax; it started them living and stopped them thinking.

They explicitly stated that they were happier and more satisfied, that they felt good,less defensive, more natural and spontaneous; that they could be themselves without pretense (no.l.). In fact, one premie stated that, through Knowledge, he had become childlike in being open and innocent to everything (no.79 VII;l6.). Furthermore, these same group members explicitly stated that they had become more sensitive to and appreciative of nature, that they were more aware of the importance of human life, that they experienced a universal love (no.l3.) and that one was now able to experience life more fully, to experience life as it really is rather than according to one's desires (no.27.) since one's constructs close one off from certain possibili ties (no.76 VII;ll.).

Compatible with this openness of being is the theme of increased openness to fellow man, such that explicit statements occur to the effect that one is now more open to and accepting of other people, that one can relate more easily to and is more considerate of other people. One now feels closer to and more involved with people; one feels less alienated and has a deeper relationship with people (no.3.).

Many premies interviewed explicitly stated that, being in the movement, one has a purpose such that none of one's actions are futile and one is able to perceive a purpose in all life-situations so that it is possible to construe one's past as contributing meaningfully to one's present (n0.52.). Life has

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become a challenge; it has taken on a new meaning (no.2.), and it is felt that Knowledge (an integral aspect of being a premie)must be practised in order for one to feel peaceful and whole (no.37.); the aim of life being to know oneself, there is the desire to be constantly aware of the eternal Truth (no. 53.) and to realize a universal unity (no.2 VII;7.). Further more, it is felt that one's purpose in life is being realized although in an unexpected fashion (no.75 VII;7.).

In stark contrast to this in the movement mode of being pregnant with meaning - one finds themes indicating that, prior to joining the movement, group members lacked personal ambition and had begun consciously to question the meaning of their existence. There was a feeling of dissatisfaction despite material success; a feeling that there was something more to life an acute and urgent need to search for the answer to one's existence (no.7.).

In addition, a number of premies explicitly stated that, prior to being a member of the Mission, they had drifted away from and were alienated from their friends, were extremely dismayed that their friends had conformed to mainstream values, and felt that most people were critical of one another (nos. 28 and 72.). There were also themes indicating that, prior to joining the movement, they felt different from others, felt unable to relate to fellow man and felt alienated, that one also spent much of one's time on one's own (no. l7.), that one did not wish to live according to an imposed routine, and that there was an experienced inability to settle into any particular envir0n~ ment (no.49.). Furthermore, explicit descriptive themes emerged from a small number of group members to the effect that, prior to joining the Mission, there had been a trying period when all that one possessed was lost, and one felt a complete failure and lacked confidence (nos. 20 and 23.).

In terms of the above explication it is understandable that some of the premies should explicitly state that they had received much from being a group member,

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felt their questions were being answered and that they felt they were growing psychologically, their conflicts being resolved (no.lO.),while it was also felt that Knowledge was fulfilling their desire to understand the nature of reality and of God. This, however, does not necessarily imply that being a premie is an easy occupation (no.2l.).

Supportive of this radical difference between the pre movement and the in movement modes of being in the world, is a major theme emerging from a large number of group members to the effect that they have completely and radically changed; that one no longer enjoys what one used to enjoy, that one is less inclined to engage in frivolities (no.4.), and that, although one's approach may have been inbalanced, there was nevertheless an attempt to become pure (no.l8.) and there was a dedication to this spiritual quest (nos. 6, 53, 80 and 91.). Furthermore, a few group members explicitly stated that, being in the movement, one's previous conceptions of reality are changed and one develops a proper perspective (no.26.). Several of the premies (no. 9) indicated that they initially felt ambivalent about joining the movement, and thus one finds, for example, explicit descriptive statements to the effect that initially they were not impressed by the Mission, that the premies' beliefs conflicted with their own beliefs, and that initially they had reservations about the Mission, feeling that being a member was below their dignity. However, for some of these premies (II; XI; XV ) their ambivalence appeared to be short lived, since, on actually seeing Guru Maharaj Ji or on receiving Knowledge, they reported an immediate attraction as well as being filled with a comforting presence (nos. 29 and 30.). Furthermore, they felt' that they had little or no control over what was happening and felt drawn to the premies as if magnetized (no.l6.).

Many of the premies explicitly stated that they were introduced to the Divine Light Mission by friends (no. 5.) and that, having had contact with

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group members, they felt a friendship and acceptance. They were further impressed by the unity and sincerity of thepremies and felt that they always appeared to be happy (no.6.). In addition, two premies explicitly expressed a positive attitude toward Guru Maharaj Ji, stating that He is completely open to man and that He is Christ (no.39.). These themes support the general feeling tone concerning the openness of the group members. Furthermore, some group members explicitly stated that they felt an at homeness in the movement, and on meeting the premies were able innediately to identify and empathise with them. (no. l5.).

Incompatible with this general feeling tone is the explicit expression by one group member (IX) that he still found the world of today sickening and that he felt man was driving himself to destruction (nos. 42 and 88.).

Also incompatible, to a certain extent, with this general feeling tone of openness is the explicit statement by another group member (no.lO2 XIV;5.) that she could not and still cannot relate to the other group members, al though this same individual stated that she felt attracted to the movement by the love shown to her by the premies (no.6 XIV;4.). This suggests that, although she may be open to the premies, there is an inability on her part to relate to them other than in terms of their being members of the group which espouses a belief system to which she has declared her allegiance.

For a large proportion of premies, being a member of the Divine Light Mission neans being more stable and having a practical life style. In addition, it is felt that Knowledge helps one to deal with one's mental and physical problems and that it promotes a continual improvement of things. Hence, one finds explicit descriptive statements to the effect that one has been forced to face up to reality and confront one's problems rather than avoid them (no.

32.); that, although previously lost and confused, this is no longer the case

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(no.l2.); that one now has a firm basis in life; that one feels in control and more organized, more inner directed; and that one is more able to remain calm in the midst of confusion; and, finally, that one now has an effective method of spiritual realization (no.8.).

Another major theme that emerged indicates that, prior to joining the Divine Light Mission, many group members were already spiritually inclined. Thus one finds explicit descriptive statements to the effect that they have always been interested in religion, that they had been searching in the scriptures for the answer to the question put to them by their existence, and that they have always believed the purpose of life to be of a spiritual nature (nos. ll, l9 and 44.). Since a great many of the premies (over half of those interviewed) indicated that they were already spiritually inclined prior to joining the movement, and, since the majority of these individuals explicitly expressed that they felt they had greatly changed (no.4.), it would appear that this changednmde of being does not refer specifically to becoming spirituaL but rather to a mode of being spiritual. That is, being a group member is synono mous with being-an-openness to-the world which would include a way of being spiritual. This mode of spiritual being was explicitly stated by two premies who expressed the sentiment that God is open to and loves everything, that He is perfect and that He can help one to avoid destruction (no.38.). Further more, total faith is considered to be essential if Knowledge is to be efficacious this is not a blind faith but a trust in God (nos. 80 and 81 respectively VII;l7,20.).

Compatible with the above exposition concerning thismode of spiritual being is the explicit theme emerging from the protocols of two premies that their activities have not changed but that the motivation behind them has, and that their involvement in the world is different from what it was previously (no.

35.).

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An apparently incompatible theme concerning one's relationship to the world and to fellow man emerged from the protocol of one of the group members (nos.

59 and 60 IV; 6.). This theme would appear to indicate that this premie had an extremely good relationship with both fellow-man and the world prior to joining the movement. However, this same individual also explicitly states that he felt so frustrated by his inability to express a beauty that he felt inside himself (no. 61.), that, although materially successful, he did not feel satisfied and had begun to feel that there was possibly more to life thanjust attaining one's goals (no. 7.). He further explicitly stated that, through being in the Mission, he was beginning to relax (no. 1.) and felt an at-homeness (no. 15.). Furthermore, retrospectively he could see that he had been selfish to others (no. 31.) and spent a lot of time on his own, felt different from others and was unable to relate to them so much so, that he had begun to despise fellow man (no. 17.). From this explication, it would seem that, although at the cognitive level the world and fellow man are per ceived as being beautiful, at the experiential level this subject, like other group members (nos. 7, 17, 20, 23, 28 and 72.), had a poor relationship with fellow man and with the world.

The remaining themes were found to be compatible with the above Ehtended Des cription of the meaning of becoming and being a member of the Divine Light Mission.

PART IV THE CATHOLIC PRIESTS

274

1CATHOLIC PRIEST PROTOCOL ONE - §I[

INTERVIEWEE: /("Perhaps if 1 give a little bit of the history, 1 think it'll get me into the right wavelength, sort of./(2)I've thought about this a lot actually, because I tend to be a thinking type. Also questioning why I do this, you know, and, particularly where I'm 100% happy, then I question even more./ (3)But I've sort of traced it back to something that happened in the Army, and that was linked with my school life./(4)I've always been in a pretty sheltered type of existence, I think. I went to a church school, which I think is a little more sheltered than a government school. I had a very happy home life, you know. My folks always put their kids first, sort of, sent us away to a boarding school, because, you know, they felt their investment was in the kids, rather than in themselves. Rather than give us a big inheritance, give us a good education, sort of thing. what it all boils down to, is I was very sort of accustomed to a life, where, if I did the right thing, I was rewarded, if I did something, it was for a purpose./(5)Come the Army, and suddenly I was I think all the, sort of, the shelter of my previous life suddenly was shatt ered. I was stuck, I think, into what, for me, was one of the best cross sections of society. You get everyone there/(6)- and,funnily enough, at school I was a sort of a leader. I was head boy, and everything, and I played provincial sport and everything, but I always had a bit of an inferior ity complex, which was funny./(7)People didn't believe it, you know, when I told them afterwards./(8)In going to the Army, I saw guys better than me, and I saw guys worse than me, and I sort of felt that I found myself in a sense,/ (9)but anyway, in the Army, I had to ask myself all sorts of questions, like "what is life all about?", because I saw so many people who just had a purpose less life, sort of, and I had to ask myself, "well, what is the purpose of life?"

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At school, this was a short sighted one really well, that's all a short sighted one. I didn't have to look beyond school. Suddenly, out of school, I had to look at my whole life,/('wand this is a problem I can't fully explain./(]1)I don't know whether having had a religious background or not, I've plunged deeper into religion to find my my sort of, goal, my purpose and sense of life, in religion, or whether something supernatural occurred.

I don't know, but the result was that I felt the only sort of purposeful way of life was within the (Christian) way of life./(]2)0h, I must just mention, in that year in the Army, I went on an officers' course and for the first six months I was heavily involved, and then for the next six months I had virtually no work. I had an ordinary office job, I had my own room by myself you know, with a group of guys, but I had a single room like this, and it gave me so much time, just to think./(]3)In many ways, you know, there was a danger in that I could have gone round the bend, or something,/(14)but the result was that I did think a lot, I read a lot not so much religion, funnily enough. I read books like you know, big novels about life, sort of thing, just city life, and that sort of thing. Its horror, and pain, and happiness you know, just the whole spectrum of life, and I read a lot of those /(]5)and it's quite strange that it wasn't the religious books that made me become extra religious./ (]6)But I do remember I was reading my (51915) sort of, every night a chapter a night, and that was sort of relatively new for me too,/(]7)but anyway, the result was that, after all that a lot of time to think, meeting different people, asking myself questions - "Where was I going?, why I was born?" All these sort of things. The result then, was that I wanted to become a (priest).

I wanted to get more immersed in religion. I felt it was the only sensible thing to do./(]8)I remember the Spring of l9... that was I970 - I remember the Spring of that year. I left It was a funny experience, because I felt as if I hadn't seen a Spring like that ever before. without getting all sentimental, it really was. I can remember walking I was in Pretoria, here,

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1at the prison, working at the ammunition depot above that, and I remember walking up and down the path there, and sort of looking at flowers as if I'd never seen them before, and, looking back, I think in a funny way I was sort of a new person, somehow, because obviously I'd known I8 Springs before that - well, not the first few so well, anyway, but/(19)~ and I knew this, I wrote away to become a (priest), but, all the time, I had a tension in me./ (20) 1 didn't like»the idea of (celibacy). Istill dD?'t like it. If 1 had my way, I would be a (married priest), but they don't cater for it, at this stage, not within the (Catholic church) anyway./(2])So, I used to get reports from my elder brother who was at varsity, "Hell, varsity's just great", you know, and all about the razzles and the women and the beer and just the young guys all being together, you know and mixing. It was really tremendous./ (22)So, this made me feel, "Gee whiskers. I couldn't resist it." So the result was up till Matric, I was going to do Law at Stellenbosch varsity.

So, 1 thought, "Hell, 1'11 go to varsity and " /(23)There was a bit of pressure on me, from my father not an absolute pressure. He did say to me, "Look, even if you go now, it's 0.K.," but he said it would be better if I made the decision when I'm older, to become a (priest). Anyway, the nett result was my father's pressure, plus my sort of desire to just sort of lead an ordinary life, held sway, and I went to varsity./(24)The funny thing is that I never doubted that I wanted to work in religion and with people. I never doubted that at all right through those years at varsity, when I was doing law./(25)I never felt law was my sort of scene. The last thing I sort of wanted to do was get involved in big commercial cases; you know, two crooks trying to skip tax or something. That would just be - I wanted to I just didn't want to be a cog in the machine of society. I wanted to be the design of the machine, sort of. I didn't just want to perpetuate the system. I wanted somehow to change it,/(26)and I felt about law, it was sort of, dealing withthe problem after it had arisen, whereas religion. I think,

177 deals with the true nature of man, before it gets out of man, if you know what I mean. Before man can act, he must have a certain frame of mind, and I wanted to affect that frame of mind, to bring about a better society./ (z7)Anyway, I went to varsity, and I carried on going out with different, sort of, girls. I joined the hockey club, which was a big social club; I used to go away on tours, and I acted just like a completely normal guy for five years./(28)I always had my religion, and the, sort of, moral values in it. I didn't stick strictly to them all the time, but there was always that pressure on me, you know./(29)It came to the end of five years and I still hadn't been able to develop a meaningful relationship with any women, even though I wanted to, very much./(30)So; I mean, even now, it's still a pressure on me - just this holiday, three weeks ago, a month ago, I met some girl from Bulawayo, and this really messed me around for a while, because I know, if I had my way, sort of, and if I felt happy with my way, then I would leave this place at the first chance I got, but there's a sort of thing that I really believe in, and I don't I'm sort of, you know, confusing myself. I think it's something true, because I do I'd love to do away with it. I've tried to do away with it, and I can't and that's just this; that I feel some sort of peace within me, when I'm doing what I call, the will of God./(31)It might also be just conscience, but, for me, it's the expression of God's will. I'm not saying it comes from up there, it's something I find within myself; but I think it is God, I call it that anyway,/(32)and so I find, even when I wanted my way, sort of, you know, to work in His (church) as a married man, so far I've found it impossible./33)I don't know what's going to happen. At some stage in my life, I may find it possible, but, for the moment, I've sort of fought it for so long, and made no headway. I felt, if this is how I've felt for five years, get into the (seminary), and get this thing into your system, or out of your system, because I'd sort of tried secular life for five years, and I wouldn't say

178 I was any more at peace than at the beginning of those five years. I think I was a little more clearer in my ideas in - Ja, that's all clearer./ (34)But the same basic rift was inside me, that - a lack of something, and I thought, "Well, a thing that is plaguing me is this thing to serve God, in the way He wanted it." I thought, and think, you know, as a (celibate) guy, unfortunately./(35)Ja, that's about it. I don't really know if that answers any questions?/ _ INTERVIEWER: Yesit does.

INTERVIEWEE: /(36)When I look back, 1 Can aihiast say I've had something calling me, sort of a cliché, but it's real for me. I've had something calling me, something pulling me a certain way the (celibate) way,/ (37)and I haven't wanted it. I know that for a fact, you know, and I feel that all my life I won't want it, but I've fought with it,/(38)and got nowhere, so I thought, "well, let's try the other way. Accept it, you know, and let's see if that brings about because that's what I'm look ing for a peace."/ INTERVIEWER: Have you ever considered serving God, as a (married priest) say, in an (Anglican church)? INTERVIEWEE: /(39%, I did. 1 once went out with a lovely girl, who was very religious, and an (Anglican), and, I mean, within the spectrum of religions (Anglicanism) is probably the closest to (Catholicism). I did seriously consider it then, because she was a lovely person and her mom I respected very much, and she often used to suggest, you know, this thing to me;/(40)and, in fact, I was an Anglican before I becane a (Catholic), but that was years ago. I was four years old. It was my parents' decision.

They converted, but/(4]l So, I did consider it, but I felt then, I didn't have the knowledge of both religions to make that step. I remember, when

179 I considered it, that I thought before I decided to make a decision like that, I would have to look into the doctrines plus other things. I mean, you know, the whole nature of the religion, of which doctrine is only one part. I would have to look into the nature of both, before I mean, obviously, otherwise I can't make the right decision./(42)I don't think I couldn't choose it just because I wanted to get (married). I'd have to choose it because it was right./(43)And at this stage, having been here, learning a bit, and I think in a relatively objective way no doubt, there's a certain amount of indoctrination here, just by way of life, but to some extent, you know, I've become more convinced in my (Catholicism) not in I hope not in a fanatical way, but I believe it is the home of (Christians), you know./(44)I think it has to change a lot. I think they have to change a lot but I think the structure of it now sort of I think the (fopg) I think he means a lot. I know he means a lot to a lot of (non Catholic) people. I've got a lot of Anglican friends, Methodists and all the rest, and they've said to me, they consider the (fgpg) the head of the, sort of, (Christian Church). You know, even if I was looking at it, from a practical point of view, I would say, if we were to talk about the unity of the (church) - for me, there's no doubt that the most practical structure of all the other churches to move towards, is the (Catholic) church, just because it has the most, sort of, complete organization at the moment, even if it was to keep its name and change all of its principles, it's just the most /(45)I just feel at home, somehow./(46)That's another thing, also in the lives of most of the Saints loyalty to the church. That's a big thing. I don't think Luther made the right decision in breaking from the church. I think he made the right decision in criticizing it like mad, you know, because it was wrong no doubt about it but whether he did right, you know who knows?/(47)Anyway we're getting off the subject./

180 (48)You know, what 1 still think is wrong 1 don't feel that (celibacy) should be compulsory; it should be done on a voluntary basis./(49)The generally held view is that (celibacy) implies that sex is a bad thing - the distinction was drawn for me this year by someone here. It put into words what I feel the distinction was drawn between sexuality and genitality, genitality meaning actual physical intercourse, sort of; sexuality meaning the fact that I'm a male and she is a female, and, being that way, we have an automatic head start on two males, you know what I mean. This is just the way that man is made. It makes the union much easier, the one being a male and the other a female and, anyway, my attitude is that sexuality shouldn't be denied not at all.

In fact, I think it leaves a person stunted by being denied; but genital~ ity, that's where I see the (vow of celibacy, or chastity - the actual vow chastity) that you are pure in your thinking and in your actions, as regards women -/(5O)not just women, I suppose men too, I never thought of it, towards men./(5])You know, I feel that I can. In fact, it's some thing that I want and would like. I suppose it's one of my little prayers that one day, I could have a beautiful relationship with a woman, that I think if we're both mature enough, we could exclude the genitality side, but very strongly emphasize the sexuality plus the mind and everything./ (52)Nhen I spoke about being relatively more (celibate) at varsity, I never slept around but I got pretty close to it. I would have liked to, but I couldn't. As a whole person, I couldn't Very much again my (Christian) my religious values, I don't know, for me it would have been a denial of something that is so close to me, whether one calls it God, or a person, or a moral code of values it would have been a denial of something so close to me, the pain suffered as a result wouldn't have been worth the pleasure./(53)You see, I see (celibacy) as in a way, not getting married./

18l (54)What really bothers me, is that sexuality is often denied./(55)I miss not having that full relationship a growing relationship with a person./ (56)Perhaps I'm an idealist./(57)My parents have said to me, "Marriage isn't a bed of roses" and all the rest, but it's one of my dreams it's something I would love. Even now I would love it. If tomorrow I could leave this place with a peace of mind leave it to marry, I would,/(58)and I'd be extremely grateful to God for it too./(59)At the moment, I see it as a denial of God to go and get married, for me. Not looking upon a marriage as a bad thing, but for me, I think God wants me single for the moment./(60)I hope that He'll change His mind. I hope when I say, I hope He changes His mind I don't think He changes His mind - but what I mean is that I hope that His plan might just involve me living four years in a (seminary), for the discipline Ja, the good things of a (seminary) and I've often hoped that He will help me to be instrumental in bringing (married priests into the Catholic church)./ (6])These are all,sort of,dreams that I've had to you know, hoping that I could have it another way./(62)But, at the moment, I'm relatively resigned to the fact that He might want it othenwise; I know that there's also a tremendous, sort of, joy, in sacrificing in feeling that one is sacrificing for, you know, something bigger than oneself./ INTERVIEWER: would you elaborate on this? INTERVIEWEE: /(63)Ja, certainly ~ (laughs) It sounds masochistic, doesn't it - (laughs) you know, it's funny. I would say I definitely get a joy out of feeling that I have denied myself something, for something better. It's a fact./(64)I don't know what you guys would think of a person like me./ (65)This also relates to something I was saying earlier on./(66)Just after the holiday, I was helluva depressed after meeting this girl the fact that I didn't feel that I was going to be free to marry her sort of not that that was the ultimate aim, to marry her but just to keep getting closer to her. I was very depressed,/(67)and I went across to some friends of ours we played

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1tennis there, and now, they're non religious - very intelligent people and, you know, the woman - who's very intelligent a very perceptive person very aggressive too. She doesn't hide anything from me. we're old sort of family friends. She's my mom's friend; went to school together.

Anyway, she said I should go around, so I went around, you know. She said, "How are you?" I said, "Not so well - very depressed". you know, and I sort of laughed about it, and she said, "Why, what's worrying you?" So I said "(Celibacyi)" So she said, "Nell, that's a bit frank, isn't it?" (laughs) "well, for me, it's not frank. It's true. Yes, (celibacy) I've met a fantastic girl, and I'd like to get married" and then I related this incident to her, in the (gospels of Christ, in the Garden of Gethsemane).

That I just related really to her, to explain that fact, that I didn't think it was so masochistic as she thought. I explained that I felt that maybe this might be the cross that I have to bear, sort of./(68)Anyway, she thought I was masochistic./(69)This has been a question in my life. Am I masochistic? Am I taking this cross too far? you know, because I think you can take it too far./(70)I think there is also joy in religion,/(7])and, in fact, should I find after six months, after a year should I find I'm beginning to become a very morose, a very morbid person, then I will think that I've taken that cross too far, you know -/(72)but I do think there is an element of sacrifice Hell, I know for a fact, within (the Christian) religion and for the moment, I accept it, you know but I know for a fact, within (the Christian) religion, this is an integral part of it - the prayer of (St. Francis) that it is on dying, that you are born into eternal life. I mean the whole life of (Christ) was this you know a man sort of born to die for others,/(73)and to some extent we believe all (Christians) share in that life of (Qi?),/(74)and I think in some ways this loneliness it can't just be reduced to (celibacy), and I think I have a sensitivity, that I can't just have a superficial friend ship with a guy, say, I think I need a very very good close friendship, which

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1I can only find in a woman, yet in not having that but loneliness, is to be my cross, sort of./(75)I think this question of masochism is a real one, and if I could be at peace with the idea that I was being too masoch istic, I would, in many ways, be quite a happy guy, because but as yet, I don't feel, you know ... I do ask that question though./(76) If I don't ask it, people around me ask it for me, because when they see me depressed, and I tell them why, well, then they get like this woman, you know./(77)But I've found my solution in (the person of Christ). It rests on whether, you know, He's even with God, but that's another question;/(78) You know, I've found in me, there's no doubt about it, that there's certain things about me I like to have a sort of, a harmony in life./(79) The big thing, I think, is that there is a purpose for me in life, and I like to feel that I'm useful, or that I'm working constructively towards that purpose, and, probably, on a more intellectual level, when I think about it, that's what God is to me. He's He is the purpose, sort of, He is the goal, and the sort of, harmonizer of I think I could sum that all up in the fact that He is a reason why we live, where we are going to He's happiness, just the harmonizer, sort of./(80)What God I don't know, maybe I'll think more about that just now./(81)Nhat God is to me, in actual fact, you know, moving out of the intellectual realm, just in my everyday life I Can't at one stage, I didn't believe in (ghrist) really, but now I can't sort of separate it from (ghrist), because of a new idea that came into my head, that (ghrist) is God coming to man, sort of. So, for me to speak about God alone, sort of, would be to speak of something remote when I put (ghrist) into the picture then I can speak of God as being with me, sort of and I believe that. I find God to be a companion, and a (ghrist), a consoler.

It's funny, you know, I can pray to Him, I can talk to Him, sort of, and I believe - I don't know, but I believe that He does listen to me./(82) I

184

1definitely find peace in being able to share./(83)Now, I know, I also find that in sharing with a person,/(84)but I'll tell you where I've found a great strength sort of. what I've found in (ghrist), is in that thing, in the (Gospels), about Him being faced with a sort of, a task of (redeeming man through the crucifix and resurrection. Before He underwent His cruci fixion, He didn't have to do it. His attitude to God, His Father, was, you know, "Let this pass me by, if it's your Hill", you know), but basically, why I say I've found a lot of consolation there is because it's my attitude towards life too,/(85)and (celibacy) hits me hard - loneliness, I'm not a lonely person. I like to be alone at times, but I, you know, I like to have the company of somebody close, extremely close, and because of my nature I've found that the most ideal partner is a woman,/(86)but I find I can sort of sit next to (ghrist), put my arm around (Him), you know, and say "You give ne strengtHL because I say exactly the same thing as He said in (Gethsemane) about (His crucifixion) - I say it about (celibacy). I can say to Him, "I don't want this", as He said, you know "If this (cup) will pass me by, well let it"; you know, basically He said, "Please don't let me have to do this" / (87)I've before been pretty tormented, saying, "Please don't let me have to leave this woman", you know, "I want to marry her, but if it is your will, I can only do it", because I believe to live outside of God's will is to destroy oneself. I live according to His will, because I think His will is what's best for me, and to live in accordance with it, is to fulfil myself,/(88)and being fulfilled myself, I'm a much more useful person in society. If I'm frustrated and not truly myself, I don't think, you know, I can help my society at all./(89)I really believe God is a (ghrist) is a companion and a consoler and I need that./(90)I think to acknowledge a need is a rather healthy thing, instead of denying it and erasing it./(91)There's one thing that's meant a lot to me./(92)I've got a lot of friends who would look upon religion as an escape./(93)In fact, this has always been pushed at me./

185

194 . .

( )I've got a lot of friends who aren't (Chr1stians),who aren't even religious, and I still consider them great friends, but they all say, "It's an escape, {X} you're trying to run away from the world" sort of thing, and you know, they have a point, but only to so far./(95)I think, in some sense, I am escaping in that there's a harshness about life that I don't like,/(96)but I would say, in acknowledging I'm weak, sort of, that I don't like that harshness and am going to God, to give me strength, to face the world, and, in fact, ultimately to push me right back into the world, and to bring the world up./(97)For me, I can only see good in it,/(98)and I think, in fact, that everyone is like that. I think people are just sometimes, you know, behind a sort of, bit of bravado, instead of just acknowledging that maybe they should escape./(99)But that word escape'is a lousy one. It has bad connotations, sort of thing, you know;/(100)! don't think it's escape. I think it's an acknowledgement of the fact that I am inadequate that I need God./(]O1)For me, I don't see it as an escape. I really don't. I see it as, in fact, the true apprecia tion of the state of affairs, and the fact of the denial of the sort of accusation that it is an escape is the fact that the true (Christian) should go right back into his society, so he's not really escaping./(]02)I mean, in my case, I personally couldn't live without other people. Honestly I couldn't I don't think I'm meant to live without them. I like people and I like to see people happy. I think somehow my happiness is tied up with the happiness of other people. In fact, I know it is./(]o3)I came from a family that's sort of a biggish family, you know, and if one is unhappy, then the whole family is unhappy, and I think that sort of is a little microworld sort of./(]04)we're seeing it, you know, we're seeing it on a larger scale, in the world today.

I think my life is inextricably linked to the whole of society and it means a lot to me you know, I'm sort of speaking more of a selfish point of view, that for me to make society happy, makes me happy, sort of thing. I like

186

1people really my experience of myself I'm not that I cannot, sort of, survive on God alone./(]o5)That needs, sort of, qualification, I think; we're always told in (Christianity) to seek (ghrist) in our brothers, and that affirms that fact, because, by its very definition, one should be able to survive on God alone, but I can't survive on prayer life, my sort of abstract idea of God, or my concrete idea of God. I think I also have to find God in my friends. By God, here, I mean love God is love, sort of.

So, I find I am very tied up with my friends./(]06)I find this (seminary) pretty hard, because a lot of the guys I don't get on with famously, sort of, you know; I get on with them. Ne have some sort of a bond, but, you know, they're very different sorts of guys. I don't hate them, or anything.

I really don't. You know, some people, you just really get on so well with, and that sort of, affects me, because I do find I need people, you know./ (107)There's nothing that gives me more joy than to be loved, and to love./ (108)I don't think I've changed all that much./(]09)You know, I think my sort of drastic change was that Army thing, but otherwise I'm much the same./(1]0)Funny I found, coming here, I met some guys who had never really thought about the (priesthood), until about two months before they arrived, and for them it was a drastic sort of cut,/(]11)but I always thought about it. You know, I think it's like going to (church) pretty' regularly. I've always done or tried to do I've always prayed since that Army thing really, even before that, but pretty vividly since then, you know, pretty vitally. So, I didn't find this a tremendous change.

In fact, in many ways, I don't find it a change. It's much the same type of life continuing, you know, that's in me, myself, sort of./(]]2)I find there are a wt of things that are different that are difficult./(HUI find tensions now when I go back. I've just come back from a holiday.

Before, when I was at varsity, if 1 saw some pleasant looking girl, I could go, sort of, full steam ahead, and go out and meet her, and go out with her.

187 Now, I'm still trying to find my feet there, you know. Now there's a sort of, a pressure on you to "You're a (celibate priest)", sort of thing, and I'm still trying to find how I should actually behave. This is a sort of cliché I don't mean women in general. I mean a woman, I know, I like, that I'm attracted to. You know, do I go full steam ahead, and enter into some relationship or, you know, at which stage do I cut, and say, "Right, I'm sorry, I can't go any further?" This is because of the person I am and I find that a slightly troubling thing, you know, just to get the balance./(]]4)I think what has changed, is I am more aware, more conscious of the demands of the (priesthood), sort of./ (]]5)Even there, I shudder to say that, because many of the demands of the (priesthood), sort of, are hang overs from, sort of, medieval times in a way. You know, you sort of get ideas here that you mustn't mix with women if you see a woman, down with your eyes. So that, I find sort of troubling, because I'm too young in it to fully appreciate it myself. To develop my own ideas, I'm still sort of thinking right in it./(1]6)The other thing that I find too, sort of, a pressure, is, sort of, something like this. Just a vivid example; but passing a beggar in the streets, something like wearing a (ggllar). You could evade it before, but this sort of puts all sorts of questions on you./(]]7)I think I'm a bit self conscious, at the moment, about being in a (291153), sort of. It's not enough integrated into my life, sort of, you know. It's still new to me, and I Put it this way, I find the old person in a new garb, and I find a little difference between the two, and I'm not yet into this enough to have them together. You know, I don't see myself as fully a (priest) yet./ INTERVIEHER: Do you feel that you will remain in the (seminary) for the full (seven) years?

188 INTERVIEWEE1 /(]]8)Like this last holiday, when I met this girl I keep on about women (laughs) meeting this woman, made me once again it wasn't really meeting this woman../(]]9)I think that was the high light of the holiday /(120)There were a lot of things, you know, like going back to parties, going and meeting my mates, going out, having a few beers, just simply sinking right back. I don't mean to imply deterioration but going right back to the old way of life, to, sort of, the (extra seminary) way of life it made me question which was right, because I enjoy that other one. I enjoy being at home, I enjoy being I think it's too much (laughs) and it brought up this question "Am I going to stay? what's happening?" /(12])and I wrote a lot. I always write if I can't speak to someone, you know, if I'm not praying well sort of, then I write, because it's one way of synthesizing my thoughts, and it's one way of getting it out of me getting a bit of satisfaction of having put something on paper./ (]22)I wrote a lot about would I become a teacher? would I become a married (953595)? all of this what would I do?/(]23)It's funny, you know, I came back to the (seminary), or even just before I came back to the (seminary), this idea, that I have a sort of responsibility to God for what He's given me, you know, to spread the Good News, and there is a (cross) involved in it. This is where I come back to (Qhrist) I can't help going back to Him, because He had a (cross), and He's happy now, sort of. Basically, I can't help saying to myself, "Don't evade this (§rQ§s)'./(124)You know, I've often been accused of being a bit of a masochist I wouldn't mind, one day, some one telling me for certain, "You are a masochist" because then I can leave the (seminary),/(]25)but, at the moment, I feel I'm being sensible, in the (Christian) sense./(126)To the non-(Christian), I might be a masochist sort of, this idea of taking (celibacy as a cross), but/(127) So I would say, my whole attitude is one of a little bit of resignation./(]Z8)I think just so long as I'm open, and just so long as I'm praying I believe in that

189 very much that I must pray. By that I mean taik to God, sort of you know ask Him for help. 1 think I wi1'| stay./(]29)At the moment, my attitude is that I seemed to be called. I mean five years, real1y, of doing this before, and I got nowhere near Ieaving the (priesthood)./(13o)In many ways, I was a (i) for five years at varsity, because I Iived a relativeiy (celibate) Iife, compared to the other guys. I never chucked out religion. If anything, I grew more into it, through a Iot of, sort of, experiences, you know. Though I had lots of attempts to run away from it, I find myse'|f more and more in it,/("Hand perhaps this time the (seminary) wiII just be an extension of those five years./ INTERVIEWER: Fine, thanks very much, (Graham).

190 INFORMATIONAL QUESTIONNAIRE PROTOCOL ONE §IQ NAME: (§AI?Qg;§_EBL§§I1 _____ __ DATE: ___________________ __ (or initials if preferred) Please write down your experience of the interview which you have just had.

You could, for example, state your attitude and feelings toward the inter viewer and the interview situation, as well as any other feelings you have toward the situation you have just been in.

ooo0ooo I enjoyed it. Find talking about this sort of thing valuable. Helps to clarify things.

I felt relaxed. No pressure to conform in any way - just give myself.

Made me realize the very real presence of mystery, the faith in my life.

I do make assumptions. I live on the basis of these.

ooo0ooo

191

1LIST OF NATURAL MEANING UNITS CATHOLIC PRIEST PROTOCOL ONE (I1

1R = I = REPETITION IRRELEVANT I will tell you-semething about my-histary. (I) I have thaught-abeut yeur questien a let beeause J am the thinking type and beeause I am 100% happy. (R) (see I2, l4 and lD9.) §-have traeed-my-present aspiration to an event-that eeeurred-while i was +n~the Army whieh in turn was linked with my seheel life. (R) (see 5,6,8 and 109.) I have lived a fairly happy and sheltered life where I had a purpose for what I did.

The shelter of my life was shattered when I went to the Army. (see 3

1and l09.) Although I was a leader at school I always felt inferior. (see 3.) People could not believe this (item-6=§ when-¥ told them. (I) The Army helped me to find myself. (see 3 and l09.) Being out of school and being confronted by life, I was forced to ask about the meaning of and the purpose of my life.

This was problematic. (see 9.) I began to feel that the only purposeful life was a Christian life I plunged more deeply into religion. (see l7,lll and 130.) While in the Army I had plenty of time to think. (see 2,14 and lD9.) ¥his (item $23 was dangereus as § eauld have-gene reund-the-bend. (I) I thought a lot and read many novels concerning the broad spectrum of life. (see 2 and l2.) It is strange that it was not religious books that made me extra religious.

192

1I read my Bible every night a relatively new occupation. (see 109.) Considering my experiences (above) I decided that to become a priest was the only sensible course of action I wanted to become more immersed in religion. (see 1l,lll and I30.) I felt like a new person after having made the decision and the world took on a new spendour.

At this time I still felt tense.

I did net- and still-do nee Iike the idea-ef celibacy: (R) (see 33,37,39 and 87.) Reports from my brother suggested that university was tremendous fun.

I decided to go to university.

There was pressure from my father that I go to university before finally deciding about the priesthood this pressure together with my desire to lead an ordinary life finally persuaded me to go to university.

Through all those years I never doubted that I wanted to work with people and in religion.

I had no intention of becoming a cog in the machine I wished to change the system rather than to perpetuate it.

Religion seemed to be a better way of changing society than did law which I was studying at the time at university.

I spent five years at university and socialized normally.

I still felt that I had to adhere to my religious morals.

Although I had wanted to develop a meaningful relationship with a woman I found that I had been unable to during those five years.

I only feel peaceful when I am doing the Lord's will and would leave this seminary (to marry) if I felt that I could still be at peace with myself. (see 32 and 87.)

193

1it (item 393 might be-eenseienee but I be}ieve that it is Gedis Hill. (1) Thus far I have found it imposeibie to do things my way. (R) - (see 30 and 87.) I am resigned to becoming a celibate priest because, although I have fought against it for five years, I have found no peace in secular life. (see 20,37,38,39,62,87,l27 and l3l.) I had an emptiness inside of me and was plagued by the need to serve God.

Boes ihis-answer any of your questions? (I) In retrospect I can see that I have something calling me I was being pulled towards celibacy.

I never-wanted to be eeliba£e and probably wil4 never-want-to be.

(R) (see 2O,33,39 and B7.) § stopped fighting against-this drive-to be-a priest~heping-that-it would bring peace. (R) - (see 33,39 and 87.) I did consider being a married priest in the Ang4iean Ehurch. (R) (see 20,33,37 and 38.) and 1 (I) (see 40,41 and 42.) I was eriginally an Anglican as a ehild. (I) (see 39.) BeFore } eould take the deeisien as to-whether-¥ should leave the Catholic Church in favour-of the Anglican Church I felt-that-¥ shou}d investigate the nature oi both. (I) (see 39.) 4 eeuld neteeheese Anglieanism merely beeause I wished to marry it would have to be right. (I) - (see 39.) { am beeeming-#nereasingly eenvineed ef-%he eerreet?ess of Gathelieism.

(R) (see 44.) Although I feel that some aspects of the Catholic Church must change I nevertheless fully support the structure of the Church. (see 43 and ll5.) I feel at home.

194

1= Loyality to the Church is extremely important.

= He are getting eff the subéeet. (I) = It is wrong that celibacy should be compulsory.

= I feel that denial of one's sexuality is psychologically harmful but that one's thoughts of, and actions towards, women should be pure. (see 52 and 54.) = One should also have pure thoughts of, and actions towards, members of the same sex.

= I very much want to have a deep and meaningful relationship with a woman but excluding any form of lust both in thought and in action.

(see 55,74 and 85.) = For me to have engaged in pre marital sexual intercourse would have been a denial of God and would have caused me much suffering. (see 49.) = To ne, celibacy implies not getting married.

= § am eeneerned that sexuality is often denied. (R) (see 49.) = ¥ miss not having a Fall and growing relatienship with-a woman.

(R) (see 5l,74,85 and 87.) = Perhaps I am an idealist.

= I know that I would love marriage and would leave the seminary innediately if I knew that I would have peace of mind. (see 87.) = I would be grateful to God it this were to happen.

= I see marriage for me as being a denial of God. (see 87.) = I hope that God's plan for me entails living in the seminary for the discipline and then my being instrumental in bringing married priests into the Catholic Church. (see 6l.) = Ihis is 5ust a dream hoping that I eeuld be a priest without being eelibate. (R) (see 60.)

195

1= Although I nm res#gned te the prebab#lity-of my eelibaey there is a joy in saerifieing-for-something-greater than oneself. (R) - (see 33 and 63.) I feel joyful knowing that I have sacrificed for something greater.

(see 62 and 70.) 4 do not-know what-psyeho4egists wou4d think-ef me. (I) Ihis (item-64=) relates-baek te-what I said earlier. (I) - (see 62 and 63

1Recently I felt depressed because I was unable to develop an emotion ally intimate relationship with a woman because I was not free to marry her. (see 87.) I told an-henest and respected Friend ef this-eress that-§ was earry ing. 3 (R) (see 76.) She eensidered-me te-be masochistic. (R) (see 76.) I often wonder whether I am taking this cross too far.

I think that there is also a joy in religion. (see 63.) Should I find that I have become morbid then I shall have taken this cross too far. (see 75 and 125.) I accept that sacrifice is an integral part of Christianity. (see 73.) All Christians share in the life of Christ. (see 72.) I Fee¥-¥ene¥y in that-I need a deep re?atienship with a woman. (R) (see 5l,55,85 and 87.) I do not feel that I am being too masochistic. (see 7l and 125.) when people see me depressed they say that I am being masochistic.

(see 67 and 68.) I have found my solution in the person of Christ. (see 8l,82,84,86, 89,91 and 96.) I like to have a harmony in life.

God is the purpose towards which I am constructively working.

I shall th#nk mere about what Ged means ee-me in a-mement. (I)

196

1Through Christ I find God to be a consoler and a companion. (see 77,82,84,86,89,9l and 96.) I find a peace in being able to share with God. (see 77,8l,84,86,89, 9l and 96.) I also find a peace in sharing with people.

I have found a lot of strength in the fact of Christ's crucifixion.

(see 77,8l,82,86,89,9l and 96.) i am lonely being eelibate since i need the close cemfort-of e woman. (R) (see 5l,55,74 and 87.) P4?¢n+<xwse4a4§ewr4+r{kw?sdriuxL+HeFsa<w?43ce= (R) (see 77,8l,82, 84,89,9l and 96.) Although i have-been termented by my rel+gieus-be4iefs §-de believe that to go against-Ged19 Hil4 is te destrey enese4f-but te-live according to Ged*s Hill is to be fulfilied. (R) (see 20,3O,32,33, 37,38,55,57,59,66,74 and 85.) Only by being fulfilled can I be of use to society.

{ really-believe-that-Ged-is a-eempanion-nnd-a eenseler and § need that. (R) (see 77,8l,82,84,86,9l and 96.) ¥e acknowledge a-need-is-hea4thy. (I) ¥he-ene thing that has-mean% a let to me is my rel#anee en Ehrist.

(R) (see 77,al,s2,a4,s6,s9 and 96.) Hany ef my friends-see religion as an escape. (R) (see 94.) This (item 92.) has always been pushed at ne.

Many of my friends see religion as an escape which, to a certain extent, it is. (see 92.) In a sense I am escaping from the harshness of life.

While aeknewledging that I am weak; turn$ng to God has given me the streng%h te face the world and to help the world. (R) (see 77,8l,82,84,86,B9,9l and l00.)

197 I see this reliance as being positive.

Most people hide behind a bravado instead of acknowledging their need for an escape.

The word "escape" has negative connotations.

¥he faet that i need Gad i9 net a weakness nor an eseape but an aeknewledgement thet §-need Bed. (R) (see 96 and 101.) I really do not see acknowledgement that one needs God as an escape but rather as a true appreciation of the order of things indeed the true Christian should go back into society. (see 96 and 100.) I could not live without fellow man my happiness is tied up with the happiness of fellow-man. (see 104 and 107.) 1 come from a large and closely knit family. (explanation for 102.) i am inextrieably bound-up in soeiety and need people in order-ta survive § eannat survive-en Ged-alene. (R) (see 102 and 107.) I must find God in my friends as I cannot live on an abstract idea of God and so I am closely tied up with my friends.

I find the seminary life difficult because I tend not to get on well with the other seminarians.

¥here is nothing that gives me mere-§ay than-te leve-and-te be loved.

(R) (see 102 and 104.) {-de~nut think that-¥ have changed very much through being in the seminary. (R) (see 111.) Ihe Army~ehanged me-tremendeusiy. (R) (see 2,3,5,8,l2 and 16.) Some seminarians had not eensidered the priestheed-as a vacation until shortly beiere their arrival at the seminary. (I) Since I have always been religiously inclined I find that this seminary is just a continuation of my previous life. (see 11,17, 108J30andl3L) ¥ de f+nd-seme ditfieulties being in the seminary. (R) (see ll3, 118 and 120.)

198 During a vacation when I am away from the seminary I find a tension since I am not certain owing to my celibate stance as to how I should behave toward women that I find attractive. (see 112,118,119 and 120.) I am now more aware of the demands of the priesthood.

Many of the-demands are remnants of medieval t+mes;-espeeial1y with regard-te women; and ¥ need time te develop my awn ideas.

(R) (see 44.) Being a priest in pub1ic forces me to question my responsibi1ities.

I do not yet fully see myself as a priest I still have to integrate priesthood into my Iife.

I met-this gir4-4as% holiday. (R) - (see 112,113,119 and 120.) H?";'(+tem+1 8 . ) was"theiri gh Hght 0 F1ny +104 idays. (R) (see 113, 118 and 120.) Returning to "normal" social Iife made me question whether I was doing the correct thing. (see 113,118,119,121 and 122.) 1 theught sePiausly abeut-my-deeisien. (R) (see 120 and 122.) I questioned what I would de in the future. (R) - (see 120 and 121.) I feel that I have a responsibi1ity to God for what Christ did for me.

If I knew definitely that I am a masochist then I w0uld Ieave this seminary.

At the moment I feel that I am being sensible. (see 71 and 75.) ¥a-the non Ehristian I might appear te-be maseehistie. (I) My-attitude is one of resignation. (R) (see 33.) As 1ong as I continue to pray I think that I shal1 remain in the seminary.

At the moment I feel called.

I beeame increasingly religieus prior to joining the seminary.

(R) (see 11,17 and 111.) = Perhaps the~sem§nary wiH-be-an extensien-e+' £he 'Five years prior te n1y 3'ein='mg-+:he priesthead. (R) (see 33 and'|11.) 300 CONSTITUENT PROFILE CATHOLIC PRIEST PROTOCOL ONE - (I) I had a fairly happy and sheltered existence in which I had a purpose for whatever I did. This existence was shattered by my conscription into the Army, although this experience did help me to find myself. Although I was a leader at school I had always felt inferior, and being confronted by life outside school, I was forced to ask questions about the meaning and the pur D056 Of my life which was problematic. While in the Army I had plenty of time for reading and for contemplation, and I gradually came to realize that the only meaningful mode of existence was a Christian one and I began to read my Bible every night I plunged more deeply into religion. Consider ing my experiences and that I wanted to become more immersed in religion, I decided to become a priest as this seemed to be the only sensible course of action. Having made this decision, I felt like a new person and my world took on a new splendour although I still felt a tension. Because my father urged that I defer my spiritual-vocation decision until after I had completed university, and because my brother told me that university was tremendous fun, I decided to go to university. Although I attended university, I had no doubt that I wished to work with people and in religion,and that I did not want to become a cog in a machine; I wanted to change the system rather than to per petuate it. Religion seemed to be a better way of doing this than did law (I was studying for an LLB). I socialized "normally" for five years at university while still feeling that I must adhere to my religious ethics, and although I wanted to develop a meaningful relationship with a woman, I found that I was not able to do so. In fact, if I felt that I could leave the seminary (in order to marry) with peace of mind, then I would do so, but I have found that I am only peaceful when doing the Lord's Nill. I am now resigned to becoming a celibate priest, since, although I have fought against 30l this for five years, I have found no peace in secular life. Prior to joining the seminary I felt an emptiness in my life and was plagued by the need to serve God. In retrospect I can see that I was being called - I was being pulled toward celibacy and I decided that I could not leave the Catholic Church merely because I wanted to be married. I feel at home in the Church and, although I believe that some major changes are required, I feel that loyality to the Church is extremely important. I feel that celibacy should be voluntary and that a denial of one's sexuality is psychologically harmful. I do not, however, support pre marital sexuality and feel that for me it would be a denial of God and would cause much suffer ing. Furthermore, I believe that one's thoughts towards both men and women should be pure. I very much want to have a deep and meaningful relationship with a woman but it must exclude any form of lust, both in thought and in action. Perhaps I am an idealist, but I know that I would love marriage and the meaningful relationship therein and I would be grateful to God if I could get married, but for me, at present, marriage would be a denial of God. I hope that God's plan for me entails my being in the seminary for the discipline and thereafter being instrumental in bringing about the advent of married priests in the Catholic Church. Although I feel joyful knowing that I have sacrificed for something greater, I often wonder whether I am not taking this burden too far and recently felt depressed that I could not develop an emotionally intimate relationship with a woman because I did not feel free to marry her. Should I find that I have become a morbid person, then I will know that I have taken this cross too far. Although I do not feel that I am being too masochistic, people say that I am when they see that I am depres sed. However, I do accept that sacrifice is an integral aspect of Christianity and that all Christians share in the life of Christ. I like to have a harmony in my life and God is the purpose towards which I am constructively working.

I find God, through Christ, to be a consoler and a companion, and I have found 302

1peace in being able to share with God and have found strength in the fact of Christ's sacrifice. Many of my friends see religion as an escape, which, to an extent, it is, for me, from the harshness of life. While most people hide behind a bravado I think that it is healthy a true apprecia tion of the order of things to acknowledge a need, especially the need for God, and with Christ one should go back into society. Furthermore, only by being fulfilled can I be of use to society. My happiness is inextricably bound up with fellow-man and I find a peace in being able to share with people. I have to perceive God in fellow-man as I cannot survive on an abstract idea of God. I am now more aware of the demands of the priesthood, and seminary life is difficult because I tend not to get on well with the other seminarians, rather than because of any change in my values, as my seminarian life style has tended to be a continuation of my previous extra seminarian mode of existence. when in the "outside world" I find a tension because I am not certain owing to my celibate stance as to how I should behave toward women that I find attractive. In addition, being a priest in public forces me to question my religious responsibilities and to re assess my commitment to God. I do not yet fully see myself as a priest I still have to integrate priesthood into my life and I need time to develop my own ideas. At the moment I feel called and I do feel a responsibility to God for what Christ did for me, and, although I feel that many of the demands of the priesthood are outdated, I also feel at present that I am being sensible and will remain in the seminary provided I continue to pray.

SECOND ORDER PROFILE CATHOLIC PRIEST PROTOCOL ONE - (I) Had a happy and sheltered existence which was purposeful.

Although he had been a leader he nevertheless felt inferior.

Confrontation with life outside of school and the family forced him to ask about the meaning and purpose of his life.

Felt that the only meaningful life is a Christian one plunged rrore deeply into religion.

Decision to become a priest was prompted by reading and by contemplation wanted to become more imersed in religion.

Began to read Bible regularly.

Having made the decision to join the priesthood he felt like a new person and his world took on a new spendour.

A tension was still felt.

Never doubted his vocation of working with people through the medium of religion.

Felt coerced into attending university before finalizing decision concerning the priesthood.

Did not want to become a cog in a machine.

wishes to change society religion viewed as being efficacious.

Always felt that he should adhere to religious ethics although he socialized "normally" prior to joining the seminary.

Unable to develop a meaningful heterosexual relationship despite his desire to do so. (see 23.) Only experiences peace when doing the Lord's will.

Felt an emptiness in life prior to joining the seminary was plagued by the need to serve God felt no peace in secular life.

304

1In retrospect, can see that was being called was being pulled towards celibacy.

Increasingly gives his support to the Church.

Feels at home in the Catholic Church.

Feels that loyality to the Church is essential.

Feels that celibacy must be voluntary.

Does not support pre marital_sexual intercourse feels that for him it would be a denial of God and would cause much suffering.

Desires a meaningful platonic heterosexual relationship. (see l4.) would love to get married.

Feels that presently marriage for him would be a denial of God - hopes that God's plan for him entails being free to marry.

Feels joyful in sacrificing for something great.

Concerned over whether he is being too masochistic.

Feels that sacrifice is an integral part of Christianity.

Christ provides strength in the face of life's difficulties only by being fulfilled can he be of use to society.

Likes to have a harmony in his life.

God is the meaning and purpose of his life.

God is his consoler and companion.

Perceives life as being harsh religion is an escape from this harshness sees this form of escape as being healthy.

Needs fellow man for his happiness finds a peace in being able to share with people.

Tends not to "get on" well with the other seminarians, hence seminary life is difficult.

Seminary life is a continuation of his personal pre seminarian life style.

Celibacy results in his feeling tense in the presence of women that he finds attractive.

= Now more aware of the demands of the priesthood.

= Does not yet feel he has fully integrated priesthood into his life still needs time to develop his own ideas.

= Still re-assesses his religious responsibilities and his commitment to God but nevertheless feels a responsibility towards God for what Christ has done for him.

= Feels that present life-style is sensible and will remain on this path as long as he continues to pray.

CATHOLIC PRIEST 306

1PROTOCOL FIFTEEN (XV) INTERVIEWEE: /mwen, 1 think 1 should start at when I was much younger, probably from the days when I was in the (convent). This was sonething which was probably a romantic ideal that I always wanted to achieve,/(2)and I think the whole idea of the (priesthood) appealed to me, mainly because I think in those days the (priesthood) was - or the (priest), rather, was somebody who was put on a pedestal, and everybody bowed down to him, and I rather liked this/(3) well, obviously, 1 think all kids well, maybe 1 shouldn't general ize./(4)I, myself, have always thought that I would like to have the position one day, where I could be just that ordinary simple man bringing people to God, and also having that respect, and all the rest that I saw the (priest) having, when I was kind of, a kid./(5)The idea of becoming a (priest) left me when I was in standard seven, probably because of my involvement with the opposite sex./<6) I suppose most adolescents go through that stage,/(7)but, you know, the opposite sex are attractive we find them attractive now./ (8)However, I forgot the idea completely. In Matric, (I got the application forms to come to the seminary, but never filled them in), and decided to that it definitely was not for me./(9) I saw it as being far too mysterious and probably I was a bit afraid of the mystery in the (priesthood), you know.

Basically, you know, I think it was more the loneliness; I was then beginning to see the loneliness of the life of a (priest) the difference of his life that caused me to forget about it completely well, when I say completely, it didn't ever really leave my mind./(10)However, I then finished school, did my military training, and went to work at a newspaper in Durban. I was at the newspaper for three years, and was involved generally living a normal life you know, going to (mass) once a week, I wasn't ever involved in (church work), I was just attending./(1])I think possibly, too,one of the other reasons why the (priesthood) did a lot to me in my earlier life There were three men whom I admired tremendously and all three of them (were priests) 307 Another thing, I think, that probably made it most attractive to me while I was younger../(12)However, it was probably just a maturing from standard seven up until I decided to (come to the seminapy). I didn't see myself as being involved in being able to give up the necessary things one has to give up when one comes to (study for the priesthood) I didn't think it possible for myself to live the rest of my life as a celibate./(13)I think this was the big thing and I laughed the (priesthood) off./(14)However, after working with the newspaper for three years in Durban, and being very involved in the normal social scene, courting females and having a fairly good relationship with them, you know, I think it was probably brought to me then, you know; I think it was probably brought to me very forcibly, by a (mission I attended in Durban, at a parish). I didn't belong to any part icular (parish), but this one particular (parish was having a mission at one time, and, at this mission),/(15)I became very involved in what the man was actually saying, and I did feel at the time that everything was directed solely at me -/(]6)and I gave it a lot of thought, and then went and saw him, at the end of the (mission), 'cause he was there for another week after wards, and I just spoke to him generally, and he said, you know, it would be foolish, because it would seem I'd had this thing in my mind most of my life it didn't really ever leave me, even when I thought it had left me, from standard seven onwards and he thought it would be foolish of ne not to at least (come to the seminary and) try and give, you know, the (priesthood) a bash, and grow spiritually, come to terms with myself, and what the (priest pppp) is about. And it was through this I kind of went to the (Bishop and was accepted for the diocese), and I'm here now./(]7)Since I've been at the (seminary), I'd say my involvement and my whole idea of the (priesthood) has become a lot more real, obviously in the sense that I am now getting closer to them./(]8)I think the most attractive part of the (priesthood) for me is the challenging work that is necessary in the (priesthood)./(]9)Basically 308 I was once asked, you know, why do you want to become a (ppigpt)? At the time, I didn't have an answer, but I think basically it was my concern for other people; perhaps just curiosity I don't know, but I think it's basically a concern, and I feel that the type of help I personally will be able to give will reach its highest form in the (priesthood). I think in matters spiritual, anyway./(20)Not that we have anything special over the rest of the people, but because of our training, and our study, and all that, at (St. John's or any seminary), one finds that one can help people with, I think, the problems that would probably overcome any other problems.

These are spiritual problems,/(2])and I think it's just the highest form of service and help I could give to any other individual that would need it, and this is why I find it so attractive, and this is why I would like to be a (priest)./ INTERVIEWER: Have you always felt this way about the (priesthood)? INTERVIEWEE: /(22)well, generally I think from standard seven onwards it was just my involvement with the opposite sex that excluded the (priest hppd) altogether, in that the (ppiegt) was a man who took on a celibate life. This is probably why I never saw myself being able to dedicate my life to everybody and not to just one particular person./(23)I think it might be necessary to just say that Ildo come from a fairly large family not my own immediate family, but our family is a large family ~ my mother's brothers, sisters, and father's, you know, and we're a very close and united, bonded family, sort of thing, and there is a great amount of love in this family,/(24)and I have always thrived on this sort of thing. And yet, often you know,/(25)the thing I'm trying to get at now is why I probably found the (priesthood) completely unattractive/(26) the whole life style of the (pjiegt) was not for me. I didn't ever see myself as having any kind of corresponding type of love relationship between myself and other people that I didn't have in 309 my family; you know, it was either my mother, father and brother showering it on me, and then my relatives likewise. In the school situation, I had many good friends, but there was never that of normal well, family relation ship, and I thought,"Well, if this is what a (priest's) life is going to be like, I can do without it?/(27)I needed that well, extra bit of love; we cannot exist without people, and I think the closer the relationship between people, the better it would be for me, because I thrive on this,/(28)and probably this is why I think most of my relationships with females during my life, at high school, were simply because I wanted the security of some one who was attracted to me, and found me just the greatest thing going, sort of thing /(29)knowing that, well, probably in a naive way, I didn't realize that this is probably a very selfish way to kind of expect things from other people, which I suppose I did do basically./(30)I don't think say, if you want to parallel it with (St. Paul's conversion), I don't think I've ever had any I've always been a regular (churchgoer), but have been very uninvolved.

It's just been kind of a routine habit, I think. Right through my schooling, and even when I was working,/(3])I was really brought to realize, I suppose, the necessity of all this for me, to think about religion, and to think about God, and it all happened at, I'd say, this (mission), where this man was talking, and I thought, you know, just at me. I mean, I'd attended (missions) before, and I was/(32) had a good (Catholic) education from both my home and at school, and really, it never involved me that much or I wasn't prepared to become involved that much probably because I was just a lazy person,/ (33)and I think, basically, the big change came when I was at this (mission), and I just felt, well, I'd been grossly selfish, and I ought to, well, to use a hackneyed term, give God a chance, sort of thing, and it was from then on that, well, I gave up well, once I (was accepted by the Bishop), I just 4 ~ I gave up work handed in my notice, and came along here./(3 )S1nce I ve been here, I'd say that obviously, living in this situation we don't actually live as (priests) here I think this is probably not a very good thing I 3l0 mean (priests)tend to live on their own. We live altogether here we come here/(35)and there's a lot of academic pressure./(36)There's a lot of tension in the (house) because we're living in an unnatural environ ment all males /(37) but all this has been very good in the sense that I've probably learned a lot more about the ways of life and about life generally at the seminary than I could have learned while I was in adver tizing at the "Daily News"./(38)I see the need for myself more and more to become more spiritual not necessarily the need for me to become a (gfigst). I don't see that the (priest, because he's a priest), is just the spiritual man./(39)I believe anybody could sail through any (seminary formation and become a priest), and be no better when I say better than anyone else, I mean he could be just the same as the ordinary layman, who would just not give God much thought; what you call (Sunday Catholics). I believe you get (priests) like this,/(40)but in your (formation), if one is going to be, I think, a little more positive about it and reflect on whatever one hears about the place, just living in community, which I think makes tremendous demands, one sees the necessity for a universal community eventually, and, possibly, from this one can see how a leader is needed, a Qjest) who would then be able to lead these people to something greater than just the ordinary sort of mundane things in life./(41) You know, I do believe that celibacy is an unnatural way of life./(42) I don't believe it is not possible. It is possible, but it is only, I think, through one's relationship with God, (through Christ), that one can maintain that sort of thing./(43) I don't think God created man to live on his own. why did he create women? (This is not what the church has to say, I know), but I do believe it is unnatural./(44) Man is basically animal. He has this power, you know. He can reason out things, and possibly through his rationality, he has come to only on the plane of rationality has he come to transcend this animal part in him./(45)Look, I see the necessity 3ll for celibacy (in the priesthood), and also, I don't think it wouldn't work if there wasn't celibacy, you know, (if priests could marry). It would be effective, but I don't believe it would be as effective (as the celibate priest)./ INTERVIEWER: Why do you feel that? INTERVIEWEE: /(46)Because, as one man, he couldn't dedicate himself to his family as he ought to, and to, say, his (garish), or the people who are entrusted to him. He cannot. The type of job that the (priest) does well, he's there, Z4 hours a day, for people to be able to see him... well, for him to see people. Now these demands, on his wife and the rest of his family, I think, would be, I think, grossly unfair. It would be expecting too much from his family, to be able to, you know, be at other people's service all the time where he couldn't dedicate very much time to his own family./(47)(1gu could give me the argument of the Anglican ministry, or any of the other ministries). I don't think, myself, (ghris), that they are as involved; they probably are, but I don't see them being as involved (as the Catholic priest, myself). Maybe I'm being kind of a little blind, you know, but I just don't think they are as involved. They can't be, I don't believe./(48)I found celibacy the stumbling block the whole idea of having my own family, living a normal life -/(49)well, everybody does, with exception,/(50)and, I say, we are the exception, who would not go out and, you know, have a family and live normal lives, having their own possessions, houses, and children - all this sort of thing,/(51)which is very important./(52)And, if we can overcome this, which I do believe we can only do on a relation with God, (through Christ), you know, we will achieve this ideal, and I do think it is an ideal,/(52)but not an ideal that should be expected from everybody. In other words, I'm hinting now at the idea that celibacy should be done away with it should not be the norm (for the priesthood)./(54)I probably would not get married if it was done away with, because of the way I think now,/(55)but if some feel they are able to function very well (as married Eriests) then they should be al1owed to./ 3l3

1INFORMATIONAL QUESTIONNAIRE PROTOCOL FIFTEEN §XV[ "A"E=__£§EI*i9'=l§_EBlE§Il _____ __ DATE ____________________ (or initials if preferred) Please write down your experience of the interview which you have just had.

You could, for example, state your attitude and feelings toward the inter viewer and the interview situation, as well as any other feelings you have toward the situation you have just been in.

--ooo0ooo I felt free and open, and enjoy telling someone about how God called me.

It's good to see people interested in the life of other people. I was a little sorry I couldn't express myself as deeply as I felt God had worked in my life.

-ooo0ooo LIST OF NATURAL MEANING UNITS CATHOLIC PRIEST PROTOCOL FIFTEEN - (XVI R I = From an early age I saw the priesthood as a romantic ideal that I had always wanted to achieve. (see 2 and 4.) REPETITION IRRELEVANT = The priesthood was appealing because I perceived the priest as having status. (see l and 4.) = I think that all children think this way but I should not generalize = As a child I wanted to be a priest as I saw him as being an ordinary person bringing people to God and as having a position of respect (see l and 2.) = While in high school my desire to become a priest left me probably because of my involvement with the opposite sex. (see 9,l3,22 and 26 ) = I suppose that most adolescents go through that stage of attraction to the opposite sex.

= I find the opposite sex attractive even now as a seminarian.

= Hhile-in my Matrie year ¥ deeided agaiuse becoming a priest. (R) (see = I decided against joining the priesthood as I saw it as being too mysterious and I was also beginning to perceive the loneliness of this life style. (see 5 and 8.) = After leaving sehoel §-werked-fer three years and lived a ?nermal" life. (R) (see l4.) = Among other deciding factors was the fact that the three men who were most influential in my life happened to be priests.

= Until I arrived at the seminary I was unable to see myself as being able to make the necessary sacrifices, especially celibacy, for the sake of the priesthood.

315

CelibaCy was an important factor which mitigated against my joining the priesthood. (R) (see 5,22 and 26.) After leading a "normal" life for three years, I forcibly realized my vocation at a mission. (see l0,3l and 33.) I became extremely involved in what was being said and strongly felt that his message was being directed solely at me. (see 3l and 33.) I seriously conversed with the missionary and, considering my chronic desire to be a priest, I realized that I should at least try the priesthood and so come to terms with myself. (see 3l and 33.) Since being in the seminary I have become more realistic about the priesthood.

The most attractive aspect of the priesthood is the challenging and necessary work.

I joined the priesthood because my concern for fellow-man can achieve its highest form in the priesthood spiritual help. (see 2l.

Through our training we are more able to assist people with their spiritual problems, which are the most serious of all problems.

§ i+nd the priestheed attractive-beeause it is-the h+ghest-ferm of assistanee-that I ean-give to fe4lew-man. (R) (see l9.) ¥he-major-¥aeter-that-made me-initia4ly-dee+de against jeining the priesthood was that of celibacy. (R) - (see 5,13 and 26.) I come from a large, closely knit and loving family.

¥-have always thrived-en love. (R) (see 27.) § am attempting to explain to you why iaitially é ieund the priest hood so unattractive. (I) I found the life style of a priest to be unattractive because I could not see myself capable of having any type of love relationship other than a family relationship. (see 5,13 and 22.) 3l6

1I need that extra love and I thrive on close interpersonal relation ships. (see 24.) I think that most of my relationships with women were because I required security and admiration.

I did not realize that it is selfish to expect these sorts of things (item 28.) of other people.

I had always been a regular but uninvolved church attender and I do not think that I had any radical religious experience. (see 32.) I reali2ed that my veeat+on was the-pr+esthaad when I felt that the message at a missien wa9-direeted apeeifieally at me. (R) (see l4, l5,l6 and 33.) Although I had a good Catholic environment I was not prepared to become involved because I was lazy. (see 30.) The great change occurred at this mission where I felt that I had been grossly selfish and so decided to give God a chance and hence I decided to join a seminary. (see l4,l5,l6 and 3l.) The living together in the seminary is not beneficial as priests tend to live on their own after having left the seminary.

There is great academic pressure.

Because this is an unnatural environment being all male there is a great deal of tension.

I recommend this life style since I have learned more about myself since I have been here than I did in all my previous occupations.

I increasingly see the need for me to become more spiritual but not necessarily for me to become a priest - a priest is not spiritual merely by virtue of his being a priest.

I believe that anyone can become a priest and yet remain as a layman, not giving God very much thought.

3l7 = One learns from the demands of the seminary situation that there is a necessity for a universal community and a priest to lead people to something greater than the ordinary mundane things of life.

= Eelibaey is-an-unnatural way of life. (R) (see 43.) = Celibacy is possible but only through one's relationship with God.

(see 52.) = Although the Church would not agree, I believe that celibacy is unnatural. (see 4l.) = it is en4y-at-the rational level thet man transeends his animal nature. (I) = I feel that celibacy is necessary for the priest in order that he be effective. (see 46 and 54.) = Eelibaey is neeessary beeause a pr4est-wou4d be unable to dedieate suffieient-time te either-his £amily er the-Ghureh. (R) (see 45 and 5

1= I feel that the Protestant ministers are not as effectively involved with the church as are the Catholic priests because of their non celibate stand.

= I have found celibacy to be my stumbling block.

= Host people wish to have-a-family a-"nerma4" life. (I) = The priest is an exception in that he does not have a normal life and a family.

= Family life is important.

= we can achieve our ideal of celibacy if we overcome our desire for a family and this can be done through our relationship with God.

(see 42.) = Celibacy is not the idaal £er everyone; that is, celibacy should not be eniorced. (R) (see 55.) = If celibacy were to be done away with, I probab1y wouid not get married. (see 45 and 46.) = If a priest feels that he can function effectively as a married man then he should be a'|1owed to marry. (see 53.) 319 CONSTITUENT PROFILE CATHOLIC PRIEST PROTOCOL FIFTEEN - (XVI The priesthood was a romantic ideal that I had from an early age always wanted to achieve and it was appealing as I saw it invested with status and respect the priest being an ordinary man bringing people to God. This was probably because the three men who were most influential in my life were all priests. I think that all children see the priesthood in this manner,but I should not generalize. While attending high school my desire to become a priest left me, probably because of my involvement with the opposite sex.

I also saw the priesthood as being too mysterious,and began to perceive the loneliness of such a commitment. Furthermore, coming from a large and closely knit family,l required close interpersonal relationships which I could not see existing in the priesthood. Actually,I think that most of my relationships with women were motivated by my need for security and admira tion. I still find women attractive. At that stage I did not realize that it was selfish to expect things of others, and until I arrived at the seminary I did not see myself as being able to make the necessary sacrifices, especially that of celibacy, for the sake of the priesthood. After leading a "normal" life for three years I forcibly realized my spiritual vocation at a mission where I felt the message was being directed solely at me and I became very involved in what was being said. I realized that I had been grossly selfish.

After serious consideration, I decided that I should at least try the priest hood as I had had this calling for some time and should start to come to terms with myself. I have now become more realistic about the priesthood and I find the challenging and necessary work to be attractive. I felt that my concern for fellow man could attain its highest form spiritual concern - by being a priest. we are not better than others,but through our training are more able to assist with the spiritual problems of others. I had always 320 been a regular although uninvolved church attender and I do not think that I have had any radical religious experience. The living-together in the seminary is not a good thing since later, as priests, we will have to live on our own. There is a lot of tension because of the academic pressure as well as the fact that an all male environment is not natural. The basic life style, however, is good because I have learned more about myself than I would have otherwise, and I increasingly see the need for me to become more spiritual although not necessarily the need for me to become a priest.

To be a priest is not automatically synonomous with being spiritual. The demands of the seminary make one realize the necessity for a universal community with a spiritual leader who could lead people to something greater.

I believe that celibacy contrary to the Church's thought is unnaturaL but that it is possible to maintain through the help of Christ. I see celibacy as being essential for the priest in order that he may be effective, since a married priest may not be able to do justice to either his family or the Church. I feel that Protestant ministers are not as effectively involved in the Church as are the Catholic priests. Although I feel that family life is important - since celibacy is my stumbling block I also believe that we, as priests, are exceptions and that, if celibacy were to be made voluntary, I still would not marry. However, if a priest believes that he can be effect ive while married, then he should be allowed to get married.

32l SECOND ORDER PROFILE CATHOLIC PRIEST PROTOCOL FIFTEEN (XV) The priesthood was perceived as an ideal to achieve has status and respect.

Men who were most influential in his life were priests.

Came from a large and closely-knit family Interest in the opposite sex decreased desire to become a priest.

Needed love and close interpersonal relationships which initially were not perceived in the priesthood perceived as being lonely and too mysterious.

Feels that heterosexual relationships were motivated bv need for security and admiration.

In retrospect realizes that to expect things of others is selfish.

As a seminarian still finds women attractive.

Prior to joining the seminary was unable to perceive himself as being able to make the necessary sacrifices for the priesthood.

Forcibly came to realize that must join the priesthood in order to come to terms with himself. (see 19.) Now has a more realistic view of the priesthood.

Finds the challenging and necessary work to be attractive.

Joined the priesthood because of his concern for fellow man - wished to help spiritually.

Feels that priests are no better than other people.

Through his training the priest is more able to assist others with their spiritual problems.

was a regular but uninvolved church attender had no radical religious experience.

322

1Does not like the close living together in the seminary.

Tension in the seminary life style because of academic pressure and the fact that an all male environment is not natural.

Views seminary life-style positively in that he has learned much more about himself than he would have otherwise. (see l0.) Feels that he must become more spiritual.

Feels that celibacy is not natural and that it is only possible to maintain through a relationship with God.

Celibacy is essential for the priesthood because the demands of a family detract from the priest's efficiency.

Feels that Protestant ministers are not as effectively involved in their religious vocation as are the Catholic priests.

Feels that family life is important.

If celibacy were to be abolished he probably would not marry.

Feels that celibacy should be voluntary.

Hierarchical Order l 2

1HIERARCHICAL CATEGORIZATION PERTAINING T0 THE CATHOLIC PRIESTS Christ provides strength in the face of life's difficulties, Christ is the solution, consoler and companion, God is a friend, has a personal relationship with God, sees God as a loving father, enjoys serving God, has faith in God, God is deeply concerned about all of us, sees God as loving and powerful, God loves me even if others do not.

(I;29,32.) (II;20.) (IXX;26.) (IV;8,l2.) (V;l6.) (VI;2l,33.) (VII;l2.) (VIII;l7,24,26.) (lX;l,2,4.) (XI;l2,l3,l5.) (XII;l8.) (XIII;l5,l6,l8,2l.) (XIV;6,7.) (XVI;5.) Needs other people finds a peace in being able to share with fellow man, through working with other people Christ has become more real and I have matured, more able to accept people, more prepared to listen to others, more tolerant, more open, feels that relationships are important, more appreciative of people and life, would not like to exploit anyone, relationships are not as superficial as before, not as self centred, less sarcastic (I;34.) (Il;3,9,l8,26,27.) (I1I;l5,l6,l8,l9,22,29.) (IV;l9.) (VI;l8,l9,20,37.) (VIII; 2l,28,32.) (IX;9.) (X;30.) (XI;7,2l,22.) (XII;4l.) (XIII;l3.) (XIV;ll,l2,l3.) Only experiences peace when doing God's will, God is essential in one's life, feels that one should be guided by Christ, totally dependent upon God, could see that God was working in my life.

(I;l5.) (Il;2l.) (III;25.) (IV;l,l3.) (V;7,20.) (VI;l3,l7.) (VIlI;l2.) (IX;l4,l6.) (X;l9,26.) (XIV;5,8.) (XVI;8,9,ll.) 323

1B7.50%(l4) 75.00%(l2) 68.75%(ll) Life acquired meaning through Jesus Christ, life style is meaningful, doing something definite, God is the purpose of my life, had to join the priesthood in order for everything else to be meaningful, felt fulfilled.

(I;3l.) (II;8,l9.) (V;l8.) (VI;26.) (VII;l5.) (IX;27.) (XIXI;28.)(XV;l0.) (XVI;l3.) Realized that celibacy is possible, celibacy is difficult but can cope with God's help, difficult but necessary.

(IV;5.) (VI;3.) (VII;ll.) (VIlI;l8.) (XI;9.) (XII;36.) (XIII;22.) (XV;2l.) (XVI;l0.) Priest's life is difficult for various reasons: very little received in return, too close a contact with other priests, does not like close ties of living together in seminary, seminary life is strenuous.

(I;35.) (lV;8.) (V;l4.) (VI;7.) (VII;l5.) (IX;22.) (XII;l2.) (XV;l7.) More aware and accepting of myself, more integrated, mature, happier than before, increased awareness of inadequacies.

(II;24,25.) (IV;l7,l8.) (VI;32.) (VII;l6.) (IX;l7,33,37.) (XI;l9.) (XV;l9.) (XVI;4,l6.) Sheltered happy and purposeful home life, family environment supported spiritual growth, parents supported decision to join priesthood, community spirit because of home life, came from a 324

156.25% (9) 55.25% (9) 50.00% (8) 50.00% (8) large and closely knit family, 43 75% (7) (1;1.) (IV;Z,3.) (1x;20,21,3e.) (x;1.) (x1;1.) (x1v;1.) <xv;3.) 325

1Feels that was being called being pulled towards celibacy, prepared to do anything to spread God's word, must be loyal, feels committed to the priesthood, would be lost if he were to leave priesthood, life~style is attractive, must live according to one's commitments, feels at home in Catholic Church. 43.75% (7) (I;l7,l9,20.) (II;l2,22.) (III;l4.) (V;2l.) (VI;35.) (IX;l8.) (XII;35.) Never doubted religious vocation of working with people, felt people could be reached through religion, joined the priesthood because wanted to help people spiritually. 37.50% (6) (I;9.) (II;5.) (VI;28.) (XII;7,8.) (XIII;3,7.) (XV;l3.) Felt empty found no peace in secular life, I had everything I wanted but life was shallow, life was aimless, artificial. 37.50% (6) 0;l6.) (II;l,2.) (VI;27.) (VII;l7.) (VIII;5.) (IX;ll.) Longs for a meaningful heterosexual relationship (platonic), love to marry but presently feels that this would be a denial of God hopes that God's plan for him entails being free to marry, sees value in marriage, feels that family life is important. 37.50% (6) (I;23,24,25.) (II;l4.) (VIII;l8,2O.) (XI;8,9,ll.) (XII;26,32.) <xv;24.) Believes in the presence of evil, Devil has a personal effect on my life, the Devil works through people. 37.50% (6) (IV;l4.) (VIII;27,29.)(X;2l.) (XI;l4.) (XII;22.) (XIII;l7.) 326

1Desired to be a priest from an early age for as long as can remember, as a child saw the priesthood as an ideal, having status and respect. 37.50%(6) (V;2.) (VII;l.) (VIII;l,l4.) (IX;3.) (XIII;4.) (XV;l.) Found dedication and type of work appealing, priesthood deals with things that really matter, life style is attractive because serving others. 31,25% (5) (III;2.) (VIIl;3.) (XII;6,l0.) (XIV;l4.) (XV;l2.) Feels that seminary life has changed the direction of spiritual development but not psychological development, has had the opportunity to develop spiritually . 31.25% (5) (IV;20.) (VII;l8.) (IX;3Z.) (X;25.) (XIII;lO.) Demands of marriage detract from the time spent on the church. 3l.25% (5) (VI;2.) (XII;25.) (XIII;24.) (XIV;9.) (XV;22.) Still felt tense after deciding to join the priesthood, accept ance of ever-present tension, tension because of academic pressure and all male environment, because striving for an impossible goal. 25.00% (4) (I;8.) (II;l5.) (XII;l3.) (XV;l8.) Sees life as being harsh,"outside"one tends to over estimate one's capabilities, most people find the world a difficult place to live in, everything is superficial, including relationships. (After join ing the seminarx) 25 99? (4) (I;33.) (VI;29.) (XII;ll.) (XIII;8.) Mwewvemw?tmdmm?ofmewwnmm,mm realistic about aspirations.

(I;3B.) (II;28.) (VIII;ll.) (XV;ll.) Feels that he will remain in the priesthood if he continues to pray, prayer plays an important part in his life, would feel lost without prayer.

(I;4l.) (II;l7.) (III;8.) (XIV;8.) Sin is a disruption of relationships especially with God, sin results from over indulgence, sin is acting against God's will (II;23.) (IV;l6.) (XI;l8.) (XIXI;l9.) Feels that hasn't changed radically, but is more convicted, feels that attitudes have not changed.

(IV;7.) (V;22.) (XI;Z3.) (XVI;3.) Inspired by a priest, inspired by people to be priest, admired the priests.

(VIII;2.) (IX;l9.) (XII;5.) (XV;2.) Forced by confrontation with world outside of school and the family to question the meaning and purpose of his life, began to question the meaning of his life.

(I;3.) (II:4.) (III;4.) 327 2s.o0%(4) 25.00%(4) 2s.o0%(a) 2s.oo%(4) 2s.oo%<4) l8.75%(3) 328 Doesn't wish to become a cog in a machine but wishes to change society, wishes to change society, wishes to be an example to others religion is felt to be efficacious for the above changes. 18.75% (3) (I;ll,l2.) (IX;25.) (XIV;4.) Always adhered to religious ethics although socialized "normally", felt could not become sexually involved because of religious morals, have been a committed Christian for as long as can remember. l8.75% (3) (I;l3.) (IX;B.) (XVI;l.) Increasing support for the church, increasing support for already held principles. l8.75% (3) (I;l8.) (II;6.) (V;l0.) Feels that celibacy should be voluntary. 18.75% (3) (I;2l.) (XI;l0.) (XV;26.) Sees sacrifice as an integral part of Christianity, benefits from Christ's sacrifices, indebted to Christ for what He did for me_ 18.75% (3) (I;28.) (IV;l0.) (V;l5.) Still re assesses his religious responsibilities and his commitment to God but nevertheless feels a responsibility toward God, joined the seminary with openness that it may not be his vocation, must live with the doubt concerning the correctness of choice, decided to be a priest but had doubt. 18.75% (3) (I;40.) (II;7,ll.) (XI;2.) 329 Cel 'ibacy has an important influence on my life, celibacy is a gift yet a sacrifice, supports celibacy. 18.75% (3) (II;l3.) (lV;9.) (XIII;24.) Initial motives were not Christian: desire to "escape" marriage and parenthood, to receive status. l8.75% (3) (V;3,4.) (VI;l,4.) (VII;2.) Had a religious experience, desire to join the priesthood finalized by emotional religious experience which shall never be forgotten, urged on by experiential proof of God's existence. 18.75% (3) (V;5,l7.) (VI;25.) (X;l3,l4,l5,l6,l7.) There are no close friendships in the priesthood, the priesthood is a lonely life, serving others is a lonely occupation but one learns to adapt to it. l8.75% (3) (V;l4.) (XII;28,29.) (XIIl;25.) Feels he has learned a lot about people in general, had insights into life in general, got to know people more deeply since being a priest. 18.75% (3) (V;23.) (VII;l0.) (XIV;l5.) No longer requires emotional support to motivate prayer life, spiritual life has grown, happy that progressing spiritually. l8.75% (3) (V;24.) (VI;l4.) (XIII;l0_) Afraid of priesthood because of celibacy,desire to become a priest decreased once became heterosexually involved. 18.75% (3) (VI;lS.) (VII;8.) (XV;4.) 330 wanted a structured life style and group support, now has a more defined role, wanted stricter, challenging life. lB.75% (3) (VlI;6.) (IX;l3.) (XII;9.) Immediately impressed by monastic life style, deeply peaceful, never give it up, priesthood suits me. l8.75% (3) (IX;l5,23.) (XIII;9.) (XV;l9.) Felt inferior although he had been a leader, was not happy as a teenager, felt different from peers, teased by peers. 12.50% (2) (I;2.) (II1;5,9,l0.) Having made the decision to join felt like a new person: world took on a new splendour, decision to join was important. 12_5g% (2) (I;7.) (III;l.) Felt coerced into attending university before finalizing decision concerning his desire to become a priest, family disapproval of wish to join the priesthood. l2.5O% (2) (I;l0.) (III;7.) Does not support pre marital sex: meaningless, does not help to develop a relationship feels that for him it would be a denial of God and would cause much suffering. 72 50% (2) (I;22.) (XIII;26.) Does not yet feel he has fully integrated priesthood into his life still needs time to develop his own ideas, still striving to be a priest. 12 50% (2) (I;39.) (XVI;l4.) Parents are overconcerned with his wel1 being. normai middle ciass parents, parents are staid.

(II;16.) (XII;2.) More confident.

(11;29.) (x;2s.) Found church boring but became re interested, neglected Cathoiic duties at university; regretted.

(III;3,6.) (XI;3,4.) Felt unworthy of being a priest.

(III;20.) (VIII;15.) Inspired by scriptures, God spoke to me though the scriptures (III;23.) (V;9.) Impressed by community iife of priests; a brotherhood and sharing.

(IV;4.) (VII;9.) Death is a beginning, is a mystery, death can be painfui but meaningfui.

(IV;11.) (X;24.) Sees human nature as being negative.

(IV;15.) (XIII;20.) Feeis he has no exampie of Christ's behaviour to fo11ow in the seminary.

(V;19.) (VI;33.) 331

1l2.50%(2) 12.so%(2) 12.50 14(2) 12.so%(2) 12.so%(2) 12.50%(2) 12.50% (2) 12.5O%(2) I2.50%(2) 332

1I am no better than anyone else -only I have answered God's calling, not interested in status. l2.50%(2) (VI;8,9.) (XV;l4.) Important to resist temptation even if one falls repeatedly. lZ.50%(2) (VI;l6.) (XIII;20.) This life style is unnatural, celibacy is unnatural. l2.50%(2) (VI;26.) (XV;l8,2l.) I've learned that actually we are inadequate, am now less self opinionated. l2.5O%(2) (VI;3O.)(XIII;l2.) In the seminary forced to confront myself and God which was not easy. l2.50%(2) (VI;3l.) (IX;3l.) Never interested in parish work but interested in youth club work, did various social services but still not satisfied. 12.50%(2) (VIII;4.) (IX;l2.) Celibacy is a sign that there is more to life than just marrying and dying, sign of something beyond death. l2.50%(2) (VIII;l9.) (IX;26.) My love for God supported me in times of temptation, my faith in God gives me courage that I can become a better person and overcome the conflict between good and evil. l2.50#2) (IX;lO.) (X;22.) 333

1Relationship with God is permanent while people break relationships, cannot rely on people if one is to remain in the priesthood. l2.50%(2) (XI;6.) (XII;20,2l,39.) Did not attend church when young parents not good church attenders, was a regular although uninvolved church attender had no radical religious experience. l2.50%(2) (XII;3.) (XV;l6.) Have developed a meaningful relationship with sone of the other seminarians, likes others bar when they are false. lZ.5O%(2) (XII;3l.) (VI;34.) Does not feel the need to be with others:can spend long times on one's own others cannot do this, God gives the ability to live without close ties. 12 5O%(2) (m;37.) (XIII;22.) Still feels that he must become more spiritual, longs to be closer to Christ. l2.50%(2) (XV;20.) (XVI;l5.) Feels that only purposeful life is a Christian life. 5 25% (1) (1;4 ) Before joining the priesthood he plunged more deeply into religion, began to read the Bible regularly, plagued by the need to serve God. 5 25% (ll (I;4,6,l6.) Decision to become a priest prompted by reading and by contemplation wanted to become more inmersed in religion.

(I;5 ) Unable to develop meaningful heterosexual relationships despite his desire to do so.

(I;l4.) Joy in sacrificing for something great, concerned whether being too masochistic.

(I;26,27.) Feels that only by being fulfilled can he be of use to society.

(l;29.) Likes to have harmony in life.

(I;30.) Sees a religious escape from the harshness of life as being healthy.

(I;33.) Seminary life is a continuation of pre seminary life.

(I;36.) Celibacy results in his feeling tense in the presence of women that he finds attractive.

(1;37.) 334

16.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% Is a searching person.

(II;l0.) Priesthood is attractive because of abstinence from alcohol.

(III;ll.) Now examines conscience more frequently.

(III;l2.) Mass is now an important aspect of his life.

(III;l3.) More knowledgeable and tolerant of other religious beliefs.

(111;17.) Sees the priesthood as entailing much responsibility.

(III;2l.) God is not dependent upon us.

(III;27.) God did notplaya significant part in my life unless I was in difficulty.

(III;28.) Believes that we are basically alone.

(IV;6.) was not attracted to Christian Brotherhood because they appeared to be hypocritical.

(V;l ) 335

125% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 336

1Religious feelings reawakened by a friend who joined the Jesus movement. 5_ (V;6 ) was criticised by older more conservative priests for my charismatic tendencies. 6

1(V;8.) Felt warmth and friendship with charismatics. 6

1(V;ll.) Sacraments have come alive. 6

1(V;l2.) Confession is a great help both psychologically and spiritually. 6

1(V;l3.) My religious sentiment centres around my relationship with Christ. 6

1(V;l5.) Disparaging toward those who attempted to "escape" via the priest hood. 6

1(VI;6.) God wants me to serve Him in my humanness. 6

1(VI;l0.) Rejected God at father's death, but slowly became re integrated into the church. 5

1(VI;ll,l2.) 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% I remain in the seminary because it is my will to serve God.

(VI;22.) Even if 1 am not ordained, I will have benefited from being here.

(VI;23.) It is possible to live without Christ.

(VI;24.) when first joined the seminary, was not settled, so left felt free but realized that was running away.

(VII;3,4,5.) Feels this is a test as to whether he will stay in the seminary.

(v11;7.) I am rock bottom spiritually because I get despondent too easily am attempting to overcome this.

(VII;l4.) Feels that socializing with both sexes enabled him to make a valid decision to become a priest.

(VIII;6.) Considering my aspirations, I should have been more pious.

(VIII;7.) First year was extremely trying realized it was a test.

(VIII;8,l3.) 337 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% 25% Through devotional reading learned much, and tried to integrate this into my life but was difficult.

(VIII;9,lO.) Have not experienced God in a tangible way, but am joyful, am happy that I persevered.

(VIII;l6,23.) My relationship with God is always changing.

(VIII;22.) My prayers are inadequate.

(VIII;25.) Have changed slowly; cannot pin point where I've changed in a given way.

(VIII;3O.) I feel that I am maturing because of circumstances and motiva tion, training, family friends, etc.

(VIII;3l,33.) Still not wanting God properly.

(IX;5.) Desire to give completely to God has been a powerful influence in my life.

(IX;6.) 339 Lived a fairly normal life. 6.25% (l) (IX;7.) Schooling had influence. 6,25% (1) (IX;2l.) wishes to change the structure of the life style in seminary. 6.25% (1) (IX;24.) Feels that most young people of today are lost no drive in any one direction. 6.25% (1) (IX;28.) Urged on by the idea of liberation, although the monastic life style has many frustrations. 6.25% (l) (IX;29.) Feels that he has changed substantially. 6.25% (l) (IX;30.) Have to continually develop community which is difficult because of diversity of seminarians but positive qualities develop as a result of the effort. 6.25% (l) (IX;34,35.) Suffering can be a liberating influence. 6.25% (l) (lX;3B.) From an early age, had much freedom, always felt part of a crowd_ 6.25% (l) (X;Z ) Had a wider range of experience than older family members.

(X;3 ) Had older friends.

(X;4 ) Before joining, never had a close relationship with any priest.

(X;5 ) Never considered religious vocation when he was younger.

(X;6 ) Before joining, never considered celibacy.

(X;7.) Had a meaningful non-sexual relationship with a female which had a higher quality than a later sexual involvement ~ I was struck by the infidelity of it.

_ (x;s,9,1o,11.) Read many Eastern religious philosophies.

(X;l2.) Through reading can only understand God intellectually.

(X;l8.) God is personal and yet transcends my person.

(X;20.) Can only experience God because we have freedom.

(X;23.) More accepting of change. (After joining the seminary) (X;29.) People see me as being more important than I really am as being aloof.

(X;3l.) People react differently to my vocation; some feel I won't make it but I am continuing.

(X;32.33.) Felt could be happy in the priesthood because life is taken more seriously and life is questioned.

(XI;5.) Feels that has not thought about death sufficiently.

(XI;l6.) Have more of a Christian approach to problems than before.

(XI;20.) Aims to imitate Christ as much as possible which will be difficult.

(XI;24.) Disliked school, but an average scholar.

(XII;l.) 341

16.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% 6.25% Attracted to life style of priests in late teens.

(XII;4.) Must learn to deal with people difficult.

(XII;l4.) Spiritual life is important especially if I am to help people.

(XII;l5.) Important to become a better person through what one has learned.

(x11;16.) Does not see achievement as important, although it is emphasized in the seminary.

(XII;l7.) Could never trust God until once in the seminary I realized that ultimately one has to rely on God.

(XII;l9.) God works through people.

(XII;22.) I am unable to avoid temptation.

(XII;23.) It is possible to fall from celibacy just by one's thoughts.

(XII;24.) 342

16.2511(1) 6.25% (1) 6.2511(1) 6.25% (1) 6.25% (1) 6.26% (1) 6.26% (1) 6.25% (1) 6.26% (1) 343

1Feels that many people marry because it is socially acceptable t0 ma*P¥ 6.25% (l) (x11;27.) The priesthood demands one's services 24 hours per day and so socializing may result in failure to know any one person deeply. 6.25% (l) (XII;30.) May have joined the priesthood to escape but had to confront same difficulties here, so this was God's way of getting me here. 6.25% (1) (XII;33,34.) Feels that he was imature when he first joined because required attention. 6.25% (1) (XII;38,40.) Grown to accept that God wants me as I am, and see my imperfec tions as enabling me to grow rather than as stumbling blocks. 6.25% (l) (XII;42,43.) Decision to become a priest influenced by an encounter with community service organization. 6.25% (T) (XIII;l.) By being a priest feels can help Blacks politically. 6.25% (1) (XIlI;5.) Catholic schooling had very little influence on development of religious belief.

(XIII;6.) Have become quieter and less intense.

(XIII;ll.) A priest is able to help most people, but only by being celibate.

(XIII;23.) Sees sex as an important part of marriage but not all of marriage.

(XIII;27.) The seminary life is very stimulating, always learning from others.

(XIII;29.) Decided to join the priesthood after leaving school and experiencing life.

(XIV;2.) Always wanted to pray - more opportunity in the religious order.

(XIV;3.) Sees all aspects of life as inter related all people are the same if they have God in their lives (XlV;lO.) 344

15.2524(1) 6.251(1) 6.2574(1) 6.2514(1) 5.2574(1) 6.251(1) 6.2514(1) e.2s%(1) Needed love and close inter-personal relationships whichhe could not initially perceive in the priesthood.

(XV;5.) The priesthood was perceived as being lonely and too mysterious (XV;5.) Feels that most of his heterosexual relationships were because heneeded security and admiration.

(XV;6.) Now realizes that he was selfish to expect things of people.

(XV;7.) As a seminarian still finds women attractive.

(XV;8.) Before joining, I could not see myself as being able to make the necessary sacrifices for the priesthood.

(XV;9.) Through his training as a priest is more able to assist others with their spiritual problems.

(XV;l5.) Feels that Protestant Ministers are not as effectively involved in their religious vocation as are Catholic Priests.

(XV;23.) 345

12s%(1) 2s%(1) 2s%(1) 2574(1) 2524(1) 2s%(1) 252(1) .2s%(1) Probably would not marry if celibacy were to be abolished.

(XV;25.) Initially felt repulsed by calling, but grew to accept it.

(XVI;2.) Has felt "tugging away" from Christ since in the seminary, (XVI;6.) It is important to blame oneself for failures and not the Devil (XVI;7.) Feels that he could be celibate without the help of Christ.

(XVI;l2.) Feels that any desires which remain unfulfilled do so through own lack of use of opportunities.

(XVI;l7.) 347 EXTENDED DESCRIPTION OF THE MEANING OF BECOMING AND BEING A MEMBER OF A CATHOLIC PRIEST COMMUNITY The major theme emerging from the protocols of the interviews with the Catholic Priests of St. John Vianney's Seminary is one of tremendous experiential closeness to God. Hence there are explicit descriptive statements to the effect that Christ is the solution to one's problems, a friend, consoler and companion. In fact, one subject explicitly stated that, having made the decision to join the priesthood, he felt like a new person and his world took on a new splendour (no. 42.). Furthermore, the subjects stress that they have a personal relationship with a God, who is perceived to be a loving father deeply concerned about the welfare of man kind. There are also explicit statements to the effect that they enjoy serving God and that it is imperative to have faith in God (no. l.). In addition, the feeling that one must become more spiritual is expressed (no. 67.). Compatible with this mode of being close to God are the explicit descriptive statements made by a small number of Catholic Priests that death is a beginning and a mystery, and that, although it can be painful, it is nevertheless felt to be meaningful (no. 52.).

As would be expected, the Catholic Priests' relationship to the world is such that it also incorporates a belief in the presence of evil. Thus one finds explicit descriptive statements that the Devil has a personal effect upon one's life and that He works through people, but that it is important not always to blame the Devil for one's failings. (nos. l3 and l76.).

Another major theme which emerges is that the priests' lives have acquired neaning through Jesus Christ that one wanted to become more inmersed in religion. Thus explicit statements occur indicating that God is the purpose of their lives and that they felt they had to join the priesthood in order 348 that everything else be meaningful. Furthermore, through Christ they felt fulfilled (no. 4.). Further to this point, one priest expressed the senti ment that only by being fulfilled could he be of use to society (no. 73 I;29.) It is interesting to note that the majority of these individuals explicitly indicated that, prior to joining the priesthood, their lives were shallow and their lives were empty (no. ll.). In addition, a few of the Catholic Priests explicitly stated that they had been forced by their confrontation with the outside world to question the meaning of their existence (no. 25.), and the sentiment that a religious escape from the harshness of life is healthy was expressed (no. 75 I;33: No. I52 XII, 33,34.). A relevant although minor theme related to this new mode of existence, pregnant with meaning, emerges from the explicit statements from three priests that one desires to change the society and be an example to others (no. 26.).

A great many of the Catholic Priests who were interviewed explicitly stated that, by being in the priesthood, they had found Christ to be more real through their working with people, that they had matured and were now more able to accept fellow man, that they were more prepared to take cognizance of what others had to say and that they had become more tolerant. Furthermore, there are explicit references to the fact that personal relationships were now felt to be more important than they had previously been and that one found a peace in being able to share with fellow man. In addition, they have become more appreciative of people and of life, as well as becoming less self centred and sarcastic (nos. 2,167,168 and l70.). Compatible with this harmonious mode of relatedness to God and to fellow-man are the explicit statements by a signifi cant number of Catholic Priests that they were now more aware of and accepting of themselves, and that they felt more integrated and happier than they did before joining the priesthood (nos. 4 and 7.) and that one likes to have a harmony in one's life (no. 74.). It is important to note that, despite the above assertions, a substantial number of seminarians explicitly stated that 349 they did not particularly like their fellow seminarians and that they had no close friendships in the priesthood. In addition, it was felt that serving others is a lonely occupation to which they would adapt and also that they could not rely on people if they wished to remain in the priesthood. Finally, several of the interviewees pointed out that they did not feel the need to be with others, believing that we are all basically alone in the world (nos.

s,ss,s3,6s,sa and 166.). ' From the preceding' explications, it would appear that, in becoming a Catholic Priest, the nature of one's relationship to fellow man does not change rather it is the degree of relatedness that changes. Hence, by being a seminarian, one becomes ore appreciative, more tolerant, more open, and less self-centred.

That is, the theme indicating that one may not particularly like one's fellow seminarians or feel that one has no close friendships in the seminary, is not necessarily incompatible with the general feeling tone of increased openness to fellow man. On the contrary, it serves to qualify the nature of the change in one's relatedness; it emphasises an increased openness and not just an openness per se. Furthermore, an indication of the validity of this asser tion is the fact that a small number of those individuals who explicitly indicated an increased openness to fellow-man simultaneously stated that they saw life outside the seminary as being harsh, that most people found the world a difficult place to live in and that everything, including inter personal relationships, is superficial (no. l9.).

It is understandable, in terms of this exposition, that a few Catholic Priests should state that they felt they had not really changed but had rather become more convinced of their beliefs, that seminary life was a continuation of their pre seminarian life (nos. 23 and 76.). One Catholic Priest, however, stated that he felt he had an improved relationship with Christ and an increased awareness of his inadequacies (no.7 IX;33 : no.l6 IX;32 : no.ll9 IX 30) 350 Many of the seminarians indicated that they had never doubted their religious vocation of working with people and felt that people could be reached only through religion; one joined the priesthood because of one's concern for fellow-man one wishes to help mankind spiritually (no.lO.).

However, as one subject explicitly stated, this does not imply that priests are therefore better than other people. It is through his training that the priest is more able to help others with their spiritual problems (nos.

55 and l7l.). It was also felt that the priesthood deals with things that really matter, and the dedication required by,and the challenge of,the work were found to be appealing (no.l5.). Many of the Catholic Priests explicitly asserted that seminary life had, as would be expected, given them the opportunity to develop spiritually, that their support for the Church had increased, as had their conviction in their already held principles (nos.l6and28.),and that they no longer required emotional support to motivate their prayer life (no.37.). However, a few seminar ians explicitly stated that they still continually questioned the correct ness of their decision one's religious responsibilities and commitment to God and had joined the seminary with an openness that this might not be their vocation (no. 31.). In addition, there was the explicit statement by one priest that he did not yet feel that he had fully integrated priest hood into his life and that he still needed time to develop his own ideas, while another seminarian stated that he was still striving to be a priest (no.45.).

Compatible with the above explication is the theme emerging from the protocols of several Catholic Priests that they had come from sheltered and happy homes, the environment of which supported spiritual growth, and that their parents supported their decision to join the priesthood (no 8.). In addition, there was a desire, from an early age, to be a priest, and as children they saw the priesthood as an ideal having status and commanding respect (no.l4.).

351

1Furthermore, a few subjects also explicitly stated that they had always adhered to religious ethics although they socialized "normally", and had been conmitted Christians for as long as they could remember (no. 27.), and two further subjects explicitly stated that they had been regular albeit uninvolved church attenders (no. 64.). Incompatible with this general feeling tone of family support for one's spiritual growth, is the descriptive statement from one of the seminarians that there was family disapproval of his desire to join the priesthood, while another seminarian stressed that he had to defer joining the priesthood until after completing university due to parental coercion (no. 43.).

It is important to qualify the nature of the personal relationship which these priests have with that which they perceive to be God. It would appear that their relationship with God is,to a certain extent,inextric ably bound up with a dependence upon God as well as a need to be dutiful.

Hence there are explicit descriptive statements to the effect that these priests only experience peace when they are doing God's will, that God is essential in their lives, that they should be guided by Christ, and that they are totally dependent upon God (no.3.). Furthermore, many of the above individuals explicitly declared their loyality to the Roman Catholic Church. For example, there are explicit descriptive statements that they felt called, that they were being pulled towards the Church and celibacy, that they must be loyal and conmitted to both the Church in which they felt at home and the priesthood, and that, if they were to leave the priesthood, they would be lost (no. 9.).

Another prevalent theme is that concerning celibacy. Celibacy is felt by the seminarians to be necessary and yet difficult, although it is felt to be possible with the help of God (no.5.). Further, the sentiment was expressed that celibacy should be voluntary rather than compulsory (no.29.).

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1Compatible with these sub themes are a number of explicit references by the seminarians to the feeling that, although celibacy is seen as a gift there is a joy in sacrificing for something greater it nevertheless is a sacrifice, and that sacrifice is an integral part of Christianity. Indeed, one is indebted to Christ for His sacrifice (nos. 30 and 32.). Hence,it is understandable that a substantial number of priests should state despite their being celibate that they longed for a meaningful platonic heterosexual relationship, that family life is important, and that they would love to marry but that presently they felt that this would be a denial of God. (no. 12.), since the demands of marriage would detract from their ability to serve the Church (nos. l7 and 172.). However, it was hoped that God's plan for one would entail being free to marry although, as one seminarian pointed out, he probably would not get married if celibacy were to be abolished (no. l73 XV;25.). In addition, there is the explicit descriptive statement that, as a seminarian, one still finds women attractive (no. l69.) and that celibacy results in one feeling tense in the presence of women that one finds attrac tive (no. 77.), and that one does not support any ethic which favours pre marital sexual intercourse (no. 44.).

It is little wonder that many of the seminarians should state that their life style is difficult (no. 6.), and that there is an ever present tension in the seminary (no. l8.). This rather negative note must, however, be seen in its proper perspective for, as one priest explicitly stated, his present life style is sensible and,provided he continues to pray, he will remain on this path (no. 21.). In addition, it is essential to bear in mind that the seminarians have chosen to live a life which, although presenting certain difficulties, is nevertheless neaningful for them. Perhaps this is the case not despite such hardships, but rather because of them.

The remaining themes were found to be compatible with the above Extended Desamlpbim of the meaning of becoming and being a member of St. John Vianney's Seminary.

CHAPTER SIX THE MEANING OF BECOMING AND BEING A MEMBER OF A SMALL AND STRUCTURED RELIGIOUS GROUP A COMPARISON 354

1Associated things are unities: wholes and non-wh0lee, accord and discord, hanmony and dishanmony, all fiom one and one from all.

Invisible harmony is more powerful than visible harmony.

Heraclitus Since the aim of the researcher is to understand more fully what it means to become and to be a member of each one of the groups in question, the comparison far from being redundant - illuminates certain themes of each group which are similar to or different from themes in the other groups. Thus although, strictly speaking, a comparison is not required the data may be made to reveal more of itself through the process of comparison presented below.

One common theme emerging from the four religious groups investigated, indicates that all group mebers are, to a certain extent, spiritually inclined prior to joining their respective groups and that, through being a group member, they derive purpose, direction and meaning in life. This contrasts with their pre movement mode of being in the world, the nature of which varies across the groups. For example, for both the Jesus movement and the Divine Light Mission, the pre-movement mode of being is characterised by themes of_feeling alienated, empty, having an unhappy home life, being bored, dissatisfied, lacking ambition, feeling different from others and a gradual drifting away from friends. That is, their prior mode of being centres around their relationship to fellow man. For the Catholic Priests, however, their previous mode of being tends to be characterised by a feeling that everything was shallow and artificial; there was a feeling of empti ness and yet a happy home-life. That is, their prior mode of being centres around a feeling that life was shallow. For the Hare Krishna movement, the pre-movement mode of being is characterised not only by a feeling of emptiness, but also by a feeling that one is trapped that one is a 355

1prisoner - and by feelings of restlessness and anxiety. That is, the pre movement mode of being for the Hare Krishna group members centres around a feeling of trappedness.

Explicit themes to the effect that there was an initial anbivalence with regard to joining the movement emerge from many of the protocols of members of the Divine Light Mission as well as from those of the Jesus movement, in which there is also the theme, emerging from two of the protocols, that one's salvation is doubted. This theme of initial ambivalence strikingly contrasts with an explicit theme emerging from the Catholic Priest group which indicates that many of the seminarians never doubted their vocation - joining a relig ious order so as to serve people although there was a continual questioning of their decision concerning the priesthood after they had joined. Only four of the Hare Krishna Devotees explicitly state that they had any initial ambivalence with regard to joining the movement.

An explicit but minor theme emerges from the Jesus People and Divine Light Mission groups, indicating that joining the group was preceded by a trying period when all that the person possessed was lost and his world had collapsed This "crisis phenomenon" does not appear in the protocols of either the Catholic Priests or the Hare Krishna Devotees.

Explicit themes emerge from all the groups to indicate an increased experien tial closeness to a personal God, and it would appear that the nature of a person's relationship with God tends to vary according to his group membership The Catholic Priests, for example, although perceiving God as a friend, would appear to be motivated by a need to be dutiful (one must be loyal to the Church and be conmitted to the priesthood), as well as by a dependency upon that which they perceive to be God. Thus, for example, God is said to be essential to one's life; it is felt that one should be guided by Christ and 356

1that one is totally dependent upon God. The Jesus People, however, appear to be motivated by a love for God; God is seen as a friend who will never forsake one and who will help one in times of need a friend to whom one can really talk. The Hare Krishna Devotees, on the other hand, appear to worship God out of a feeling of duty. The Maharaj Ji Premies reveal themes indicating that it is felt that God is open to everything and is a loving God. This, however, is qualified by the explicit theme that Knowledge will only be efficacious if one has total faith, which is considered not to be a blind faith but a trust in God.

Explicit themes emerge from all the groups other than the Jesus People group that being a group member facilitated spiritual development and a person's desire to understand God. This does not necessarily imply that spiritual growth did not occur in the Jesus People group, but rather that this develop ment was not made explicit as such.

The Hare Krishna and the Divine Light Mission groups are set apart from the other two groups in that there are no explicit themes concerning one's relationship to the Devil, whilst explicit themes concerning one's relation ship to the Devil do emerge from the Jesus People group and the Catholic Priest group. In the Catholic Priest group the belief in the presence of the Devil is prevalent, while in the Jesus People group this theme only occurs in the protocols from two of the group members, suggesting that in the Jesus movement unlike in the Catholic Priest group - the Devil does not play a major part in their mode of being in the world. This is surpris ing, since Satan - the Devil is conceived to be just as existentially real as Christ Himself a personal being who epitomises evil and is the adversary of Jesus Christ. It could be, however, that the Jesus People's faith in a God who is conceived to be a friend who will not forsake one, assures them of protection against whatever threat Satan would otherwise 357 be to them. Thus the dimension of evil eminating from the Devil is, existentially, of little consequence and hence does not feature prominently in the protocols of the Jesus People.

The Hare Krishna group and the Divine Light Mission group are again set apart from the other two groups in that both the former groups yield explicit themes to the effect that being in the movement has afforded the members a practical and stable life style enabling them to deal with problems of various descriptions. Such themes are not explicit in either the Catholic Priest group or the Jesus People group, although the theme that only by being fulfilled facilitated by joining the priesthood can one be of use to society, does emerge from the Catholic Priest group. This implies that, to a certain extent, being religiously alive as a Catholic Priest enables one to have a stable and practical life-style.

Explicit themes concerning one's attitude toward death emerge from the protocols of the Jesus People, the Hare Krishna Devotees and the Catholic Priests. In all three cases, the themes are to the effect that death is seen as being meaningful and that it is no longer feared. It is interesting that the three groups which indicate a perceived meaningfulness of death should also be those groups which believe that God has yet to come again as incarnate Being and which do not adhere to the belief that God incarnate is in our midst as do the members of the Divine Light Mission.

While both the Jesus movement and the Divine Light Mission present themes to the effect that great changes have occurred in their modes of being, the groups are differentiated on two counts. Firstly, the Jesus People experience themselves primarily in terms of being changed while the premies do not. That is, while the premies experience great change as a consequence of being group members, as do the Jesus People, they do not also primarily experience them 358 selves being-controlled rather than being in-control and hence do not experience themselves as being changed. Parenthetically, it may be noted that the feeling of being-changed, as opposed to simply the feeling of changing, has as its concomitant theme in the Jesus People group the feeling that, since one is not in control of one's life, one is absolved from the need to govern one's own life. Consequently, one is more able to accept responsibility because ultimately one is not responsible.

Themes of this nature do not emerge from, or at least are not prevalent in, the protocols of the other three groups. Secondly, although the Jesus People present themes of an increased openness to fellow man, they neverthe less also present explicit themes of still being at dis ease in the world, while the premies, on the other hand, present explicit themes only of an increased openness to fellow man and to the world. The Catholic Priests do not unlike the above two groups - experience a great deal of change in both the nature and the degree of their relatedness to fellow man and to the world, but rather experience a change which is primarily in the degree of relatedness. In addition, a theme that the Catholic Priests have also become more open to themselves - more aware of and more accepting of themselves explicitly emerges. A theme of this nature also explicitly emerges from the protocols of the Divine Light Mission group, but not from the two remaining groups. The Hare Krishna Devotees do not experience any substantial change in their relatedness to fellow man and to the world, indicating a feeling of being at dis ease with fellow man and in the world both before joining the movement and also as members of the movement. Further more, any changes that do occur tend to be of degree rather than of nature.

Supportive of this chronic dis ease with fellow-man and the world in both the pre movement and the in movement modes of existence, and the lack of any substantial change in these modes as a consequence of joining the Hare Krishna Devotees, is the theme that emotional involvement is painful and can be 359 destructive. Such a theme does not explicitly emerge from the protocols of the other groups, the protocols of which indicate that the members of these groups have changed in varying degrees with respect to their relatedness to fellow man and the world.

The explicit theme of bodiliness that the body is a hindrance emerges from the protocols of the Hare Krishna Devotees only. This is not unexpec ted, since the theology of this group centres around the belief that one is separate and distinct from one's body; that man is actually eternal spirit soul and that bodily identification is felt to result in much unnecessary suffering. This doctrine almost makes it mandatory that a devotee view his body as a hindrance, and as one devotee stated "... our true identity lies beyond this material world." This explicit theme of negative bodiliness is compatible with the chronic feeling of dis ease with fellow man and with the world in the Hare Krishna Devotee group. A lived doctrine advocating a radical split and essential difference between self and body is not found in the theology of the other three groups.

Temporality as a lived dimension does change in the Hare Krishna group, such that there is now a flowing with time rather than a fighting against time; an ability to be with-time rather than to feel threatened by it. For members of both the Hare Krishna movement and the Jesus movement there is a discontin uity of their temporality in that there is a closedness to the past; the past is not seen as a building block for the present but rather as a millstone that must be shaken loose. This is not the case for the Catholic Priest group and the Divine Light Mission group.

Explicit themes emerge from all the groups other than the Catholic Priest group to indicate a feeling of at homeness in the respective movements, a highly attractive aspect being the openness of the other group members.

360 The Catholic Priests, in contrast to this, reveal explicit themes to the effect that there is a lived distance between the seminarians and that there is an ever present tension in the seminary. Furthermore, although being celibate, they deeply longed for marriage and family life. That is, there would appear to be anything but an at homeness in the seminary. In addition, celibacy is viewed as being a sacrifice a difficult sacrifice yet there is the consolation that God will assist one to persevere and also the knowledge that sacrifice is viewed as an integral aspect of Christianity. The issue of celibacy is certainly problematic as can be seen from the Extended Description of the meaning of becoming and being a Catholic Priest. That sexuality is not problematic in the other groups is evident in that, as Van Kaam (1967) points out, an issue, event or mode of behaviour - in short, a phenomenon that is problematic will reveal itself as being so. It will "stand out" from its surrounds, from its context, as it did in the Catholic Priest group but not in the other three groups.

There are, no doubt, many further comparisons that can be made, but to extend the above comparison would serve only to dilute the significant features of the salient similarities and differences between the religious groups of the present inquiry.

CHAPTER seven CONCLUSION A PERSONAL ENDING 36l At this point I'wiZZ bring my work to an end.

If it is found well written and aptly composeoL that is what I myself hoped; if cheap and mediocre, I could only db my best.

Macc. 15; 38 The question of existence never gets straightened aut except through existing itself.

Martin Heidegger Being and Time Most researchers if not all - must surely be continually reflecting, either explicitly or implicitly, on their original motivation for embarking on their particular project. This must be the case especially for research into the area of religious sentiments. Yet most researchers fail to present their personal orientation - their personal reasons for conducting the research in the first place explicitly. It is this aspect of an investigation of the present research that I am determined not to omit.

I first became acquainted with the Jesus People, both as a movement and as a group of young people, during late l972 while in Cape Town. Through curiosity about the type of person who joined the movement I actively pursued a coinci dental meeting with some members of the Jesus movement and eventually I was given an open invitation to live with members of the Invisible Church in Johannesburg should I ever be anywhere in that area. I ventured to Johannes burg and took up residence in one of the houses run by the Invisible Church.

At that stage, I was struck by the fellowship and sense of belonging that existed within the movement, although this was offered at a price that of overt commitment to the ideology of the movement. However, such commit ment also promoted the derivation of a feeling of security and direction given to the members by various authority figures both human and divine in the movement. Although the Jesus People were friendly, they nevertheless 362

1were dogmatic and had a very limited world view, the core of which was Jesus Christ. They repeatedly espoused the value of an emotional conver sion and emphasized that, in order to be "saved", one merely had to acknowledge that one was a sinner and accept Christ into one's life.

Although the Jesus People were anti-intellectual many in the extreme they nevertheless appeared to derive great satisfaction from engaging in intellectual arguments concerning the merits of adopting a literalist stance.

Many of the individuals who were frequent attenders at the church services, had previously been in the Jesus houses but had now "graduated". Such persons attributed their present stability to the personal growth that occurred during their membership within the movement and still felt that Jesus Christ was an important aspect of their new found life-style.

My encounter with the Jesus People raised a number of questions for me concerning the efficacy of the Jesus movement as a type of "half-way house" leading back into mainstream society, and the type of person who found the movement beneficial, as well as questions concerning the infrastructure of the Jesus movement itself. I continued asking questions along these lines which culminated in a research project (Stones, l976) ending in late l975.

The project itself, in turn, raised a number of questions to which I gave serious consideration. These questions eventually seemed to focus on two particular aspects. Firstly, were other non conformist religious groups effectively and substantially different from the Jesus movement which I had been investigating, and, secondly, was the methodology which I used adequate for the study and elucidation of the structure of religious commitment? As the first question crystallized, it became the focus of a desire to conduct a further study on four particular groups - those in the present investigation while the second question remained problematic.

This was soon, however, to be solved by my introduction to phenomenology and the application of its ethos to the discipline of psychology. As I 363

1grappled with various conflicts concerning the viability of phenomenolo gical research in psychology, I gradually came to appreciate that phenomen ology is propaedeutic to other forms of psychological research and that its emphasis on experience, on meaning and on description, among other things, made it almost mandatory that a phenomenological approach be adopted if I were to answer mysecond question satisfactorily - the substance of chapters three and four being my answer.

I renewed old acquaintances within the Jesus movement and, after developing rapport with as many members as possible, I began to interview individuals.

That is, I simply asked them to tell me about themselves as Jesus People and about the process of their becoming converted. Since my feelings toward the movement had not changed substantially since my first project, there is little need to reiterate these, save to say that I, as a person and as a researcher, felt more at ease and more as if I were "getting somewhere" with the phenomenological approach than with the psychometric and natural scien tific measurement perspective of my earlier research which is not to devalue this previous work but to emphasise the difference in orientation.

My entry into the Hare Krishna movement was facilitated by the fortuitous fact that one of the devotees happened to have been an undergraduate student whom I had taught and who had decided to "drop-out" of university in order to "drop into" the Hare Krishna movement. After living with the devotees in their temple for approximately two and a half months, I broached the possibili ty of my conducting research, involving various members, into the movement.

After some deliberation, the temple president agreed to my proposal and I received tremendous assistance from the devotees, with one or two exceptions, albeit an assistance aimed ultimately at my conversion. A couple of devotees, although willing to co-operate, were nevertheless condescending towards me 364

1and appeared to consider me as being inferior because I had not experienced Krishna Consciousness.

Most of the nenbers of ISKCON were well educated and appeared to have well thought out reasons for joining the movement. Furthermore, there appeared to be little or no conflict concerning their commitments to the movement as opposed to their commitments or lack of them to mainstream values, although resolution of any conflict may have been attained by the adoption of an extreme posture that of total commitment to ISKCON with the rigidity of recalcitrant converts. My impression of most of the members of ISKCON was that, unlike the Jesus People, who tended on the whole towards emotion alism, the Hare Krishna Devotees tended towards intellectualism - a "superior" brand at that. While I found the devotees' philosophy to be interesting and to have depth, the Maharaj Ji Premies, in contrast, were more experientially orientated than philosophically inclined.

The Divine Light Mission proved to be the most difficult group to gain entry into, and it was only after several months of correspondence, visiting and joining in with their services that I managed to persuade the regional directors of the DLM that I was not intent on doing an expose and that I was not about to commercialise Guru Maharaj Ji and his followers. By the time I had received permission from the various directors to conduct a research programme, I had been attending an occasional satsang for slightly over six months, and had been a regular attender at satsang and other services for approximately two months. Put simply, I had become well known in the Johannesburg branch of the DLM and had developed rapport with many of its members. Most of the premies struck me as having been lonely and friendless prior to joining the movement, which appeared to suffuse them with a direc tion and goal in life something which they had rarely experienced before.

By attendingsatsangthere was the possibility for these lonely individuals 365

1to meet others and for friendships to develop. Although this obviously holds true for almost any gathering of people, it appeared to be far more the case with the Maharaj Ji Premies than with the other groups which, for example, demanded a commitment explicitly requiring changed life styles, value systems and place of abode. Not so with the DLM. Members could be fully committed and yet, apart from some reappropriation of their time, could retain their prior life styles and, to a certain extent, their value systems as well as their previous places of abode. A few of the members of the DLM tended to be suspicious of my activities and refused to be interviewed. These individuals were certainly atypical, since most of the premies were willing to co-operate and, in fact, appeared to feel quite privileged that I should take sufficient interest in their belief to travel to Johannesburg to speak to them. One striking difference between the premies on the one hand and the Jesus People and the Hare Krishna Devotees on the other was that, while the latter groups took a great interest in scriptural exegesis, the former group did not. Instead, they placed an emphasis on experiential living rather than on scripturally guided living. Consequently, their philosophy tended to be simplistic, being little more than the continual reiteration that Guru Maharaj Ji is the new Messiah and that all scripture is past - the present is living, and living experientially is an enhancement of the present; in fact, an enhancement of life.

The group of Catholic Priests was included in the study to serve as a control group for the reasons outlined in the preface. As I was fortunate enough to be allowed to reside in the seminary during the course of my research, I was able to participate fully in their life style, albeit in the guise of a participant observer. The priests were only too pleased to co-operate and many went to great lengths to ensure that I felt at home in the seminary.

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1Initially I was impressed by the apparent stability and peacefulness of the seminarians, although, as they began to unfold themselves during the interview sessions, I became increasingly aware of an inner conflict that tormented many of the priests. This conflict seemed to centre around their celibate status not their choice of vocation and their longing for meaningful interpersonal contact. However, most of these priests perceived this conflict in the light of Christ's sacrifice and felt that they too had to make sacrifices for their commitment to God. Such constructions seemed to lessen the emotional burden of celibacy. Although the priests in the seminary lived according to a daily structure, this was nevertheless flexible and there was little or no overt coercion to adhere to this organizational system. The Catholic Priests struck me as being open minded and willing to discuss the most intimate details of their lives without becoming engrossed in the intellectualism favoured by the Hare Krishna Devotees or the emotion alism evident among some of the Jesus People.

Apart from a diagnosis of the groups under investigation, a prognostication is perhaps also called for, although any prognosis, especially within the social and human sciences, must always remain little more than speculation to a greater or lesser extent.

As pointed out in an earlier study (Stones, l976) and reiterated in the present investigation, the Jesus movement appears to filter its members back into main stream values after they have been in the movement for a relatively short period. The Hare Krishna movement, on the other hand, demands such radical commitment in terms of life style and basic attitudes that it would appear to shift members even further from any mainstream affiliation which they pre viously may have had. Indeed, any devotee could only re enter the dominant value system with great difficulty and would, more than likely, be only marginally committed unless he underwent a major re conversion to, and re affirmation of, the "establishment".

367 Since both the Jesus movement and the Hare Krishna movement are,in part,the offspring of the counter culture movement of the mid l960's, it seems likely that the nuber of recruits will diminish steadily and that the move nents will die natural deaths as members are either re integrated into the "establishment" or leave the movements to forge their own marginal existence.

On the other hand, the movements may continue, but with changes in their structure and ethos, as the type of recruit changes due to generational and age related attitude shifts over time. However, in essence, these movements would no longer be the same, and, like the analogy of the spoilt new wine in an Old Ski", any new movement operating under the guise of being the Jesus movement or the Hare Krishna movement would be sure to die a swift death, if for no other reason than that the present movements were generated by specific responses of a particular generation to the evils which it perceived in the dominant value-system.

The Divine Light Mission, however, is a movement which requires little overt commitment other than that one spends a fair amount of time attending satsamg, doing service and meditating. That is, it is a movement which would appear to "give one something to do" and, more importantly, something to do with someone.

Since it appears that it is this community aspect that is the movement's primary draw card, it is likely that the DLM in one form or another will continue to exist for some time to come wherever there is a sufficiently large contingent of lonely young people. As for those people who are already members of the movement, I would suggest that, as they develop friendships, so making new social contacts and developing interpersonal skills, they will gradually relinquish their affiliation with the DLM, which served its purpose for them as a temporary haven a respite from various existential difficulties. 368 The group of Catholic Seminarians, unlike the other three groups, is a traditional group and as such will continue as long as the Roman Catholic Church continues to train priests. This is not to say that this particular style of seminary or the types of persons attracted to the Catholic priest hood will remain unchanged. No doubt, as society progressively changes its structure, so will the Catholic Church, and hence the attractive elements of being a priest will change as the role of the priest in society takes on new meanings and presents new challenges.

The present research has, in general terms, been investigating what it means to belong with someone to a group which does something and the various manifes tations that this group membership-mode-of being takes on. Put differently, what was being investigated was the phenomenon of the attempt to overcome alienation by joining a social group or community that, at the time, appears to be offering a solution if not the only solution to one's intra- and inter personal difficulties. Since alienation, as an existential reality, is becoming increasingly prevalent in modern western technological society, it is highly probable that an increasing amount of research will focus on the theme of lived alienation in our contemporary mass society, be it alienation concerning the young, middle aged or the aged, be it the nuclear family or the extended family, be it the married or the single person. Hence the question arises as to the most adequate modus operandi for meaningful research into the meaning of alienation more specifically, into the meaning structures of the phenomenon of being human in our contemporary western techno logical culture.

Although the present inquiry had as its concern four specific religious communities, and although, strictly speaking, the validity of the Extended Descriptions is high only for the actual sample itself, this does not imply that statements concerning the meaning structures of the investigated groups

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are not relevant in varying degrees to any interest or question that one may have concerning other religious communities operating as small and structured social groups. Clearly, the extent to which the findings of the present study can be generalized depends upon the degree to which other small and structured religious groups are similar to those of the present inquiry.

However, at some stage it becomes desirable and necessary to conduct research afresh into the particular social and psychological phenomenon that one wishes to understand further rather than to draw from previous research on similar areas of concern.

Traditional non phenomenologically-orientated psychology, giving methodology a privileged position in the conducting of research, makes use of quantita tive conceptualization of its subject matter in the belief that this lends a greater exactitude and precision to the results than would an experiential perspective. However, although quantification may well result in a greater exactitude, one has of necessity to ask about the phenomenon to which this exactitude refers (Romanyshyn, 1978). That is, one has to ask "Exacti~ tude of what?" It has been argued in chapter three that the traditional tendency is to force psychological contents to conform to the dictates of the method rather than the reverse. This stance, however, tends towards a lack of objectivity, since, to be objective, one must remain faithful to what stands before one. Yet, to force a phenomenon into a mould, not of its own accord, would appear to be the major striving of the natural scientific approach in psychological research. Natural scientific psychology, in attemp ting to explain a particular phenomenon, makes use of the cause effect paradigm, and as such it becomes necessary to explore the antecedents of the phenomenon in question as well as those phenomena that would seem to be related to the enquired after phenomenon. Since the relationships between the concomitants and the phenomenon itself are to be most exactingly described by means of

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mathematical treatment, quantification is a necessary prerequisite. In turn, this implies that the phenomenon to be investigated must be quantifi able or, at least, made ameniable to quantification. This step is achieved by means of an operational definition of the phenomenon, to the exclusion of human experience, and by designating that phenomenon strictly in terms of measurable, observable and readily duplicable operations (Colaizzi, 1978).

The researcher then proceeds with his inquiry into the phenonenon not as it is experienced, nor according to the meaning that it presents to someone, but rather as it has been operationalized, i.e. devoid of any human experience.

Thus, the natural scientific approach in psychological research amounts to using operational definitions as methodological principles that pre establish and de limit the content of psychological inquiry. Pushing the criticism of traditional natural scientific psychology one step further, Giorgi (l97Da) argues that it has failed to study its phenomena, and instead has paid undue attention to the discovery of the various manipulative determinants of the phenomena it is questioning. However, even these determinants have been operationalized and quantified such that the traditional psychologist is able to make statements about precise relationships between and among various operationalized phenomena, but he cannot make any authoritative statement concerning the phenomenon itself, not to mention the meaning of that phenomenon as it presents itself to the one who enquires after it. Thus, it is common that there may be a misunderstanding of a phenomenon in that it is known only in terms of how incidentally concomitant factors influence it, but it is never known for itself (Colaizzi, l968).

Returning to the lived alienation which is the present concern, it can easily be seen that traditional psychological research will be able to make definit ive statements about why a person is, or a group of people are, alienated, but it is able to say very little about the lived alienation itself. That is,

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traditional psychological research makes statements about why a person is what he is, but not about what a person is. This lack of description of the phenomenon itself is especially relevant in the case of alienation where, by definition, the person does not "fit into" the socially accepted value system and ethos. Natural scientific psychology will tend to force the structure of lived alienation into its frame of reference, which is consonant with the contemporary technological ethos, and following on from subsequent research will be able to delineate the causes of alienation, the concomitants of alienation and the possible effects of alienation, but it will not make in fact, will not be capable of making any coherent and intelligible statement concerning the experience and the meaning of aliena tion as it is lived. Furthermore, although the natural scientific approach to psychological research may be capable of delineating the manner in which the alienated person is alienated, i.e. how he fails to conform to various expected norms on certain psychometric and sociometric inventories, it cannot go much beyond this. In other words, the natural scientific psycholo gist, having forced the phenomenon into a set of constructs whereby it can be measured by his nethodological procedures, is able only to say what this phenomenon is or is not in terms of pre established modes of assessment.

He is unable to explicate the phenomenon as it is lived fully and thereafter to delineate the ways in which his already existing assessment tools and scales fall short of fully describing and accounting for the lived phenomenon in its total disclosure. Since the aim of psychology is to understand human existence more fully, it would seem almost mandatory that the phenomenon itself be given a privileged position in psychological research and that the methodological procedures in general as well as in particular should be open and fluid to acconmodate the phenomenon as it occurs.

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Thus it would seem that any meaningful psychological research must, at least, fulfil various phenomenological criteria concerning a fidelity to the data.

These criteria are that, firstly, the research situation should entail a description of the meaning structures of the phenomenon in the lived world context which is its own, and that, secondly, the data should be explicated with a concern for the meaning of the data from the perspective of the data itself, i.e. the meaning of the data from the actor/participant perspective rather than from the audience/observer perspective. Thirdly, although phenomenological psychology's aim is presuppositionless description, this is not possible in an absolute sense, and hence an additional guarantee of fidelity to the phenomenon is to admit, as explicitly as possible, the presuppositions that do exist. Thus, in this sense, the researcher should be actively engaged in the constitution of the research data in terms of the questions put to the phenomenon itself (Giorgi, l975; Strasser, l963).

Fourthly, the dialectic between the philosophical assumptions made by the researcher, his methodological procedures and the content of his research should be maintained.

Since it is only possible to meet the above four criteria by dislodging the natural scientific and technological ethos from psychological research, it is almost mandatory that there should be an exclusion of the orientation towards reductionism, quantification, the use of pre-established methodological contingencies, operationalism, prediction and control and that there should be instead an emphasis on the understanding of man as being in-the-world. Yet,to fully explicate man-as man, the researcher must be prepared to encounter man in his humanness in the unique ness that is his and, in turn, the openness of the subject is greatly facilitated by the researcher's willingness to be encountered not only as a scientist, but also as a person in his own right. After all, if a researcher can communicate with another researcher, then, surely, a subject can communi cate with a researcher. In other words, a c0 operative dialogue an element 373

of trust, goodwill and honesty is required in phenomenological research that is not necessarily demanded by other branches of science dealing with other objects of inquiry. It must be noted at this point that phenomenolog ical research can never replace other scientific methods presently employed by researchers in psychology, as these methods embody the other necessary constituents required for delineating aspects of man that are most appropriat ely explored and excavated by means of quantification, measurement and statistical treatment. Thus a phenomenological approach in psychology does not supplant, but complements, the traditional methods of scientific research in psychology.

Perhaps no research project is completely justified unless it has done sonething for the growth of the researcher not for the researcher qua researcher, but rather for him as a person. Certainly the present study has contributed greatly towards my understanding of myself as a person, and it has helped considerably in clarifying my own metaphysical questions and concerns. Throughout the research I continually had to confront myself with my noetic beliefs many of which have been modified as a result of this inquiry a process which is, I believe, essential for any psychologist.

Through this study I have grown and I have found a way my way to live and to believe, and this is precisely what the individuals of these groups are saying: "For those of you who have a way, get on with it.

For those of you who have not yet found a path, this is it, you need search no more. It worked for me and it'll work for you." (after Kellom, 1973, p. 86 )