Believe First See First, Then Believe

Guru Maharaj Ji answering questions, Denver Ashram, September 18, 1971.

What do you want us to do if we don't have any Knowledge and we're not enlightened and we don't know what the Word is? How do we prepare ourselves?

See, when you go to buy a thing, you say, "Please give me the instruction booklet for this thing." You receive that booklet, and you read it, and you understand what that thing is - how many compact systems are there in this thing, what is the cost of this thing, how this thing has been made, what is the circuit of this thing. When you go to receive this Knowledge, first you need this introduction which is the discourse; which is Satsang. Until you listen to that you won't be able to understand what this Knowledge is. And what you have to do is listen until you think you are able enough to receive Knowledge, and when you are able enough to receive it, you will get it. These are the preparations.

How do I know about the Master? Will the Knowledge show me that the Master ….

There are two trees, there are two trees, okay? One tree has got a red but sweet thing, one tree has got a small but very sour thing. You can only understand whether this is a lemon tree or apple tree by eating the fruit. Eat the apple and eat the lemon and you will know the taste. That is how it is for that Knowledge and for that Guru - one who is giving that true Knowledge is Satguru, is a Guru. He's a Master. Know Him by His fruit, what fruit He will give you, see? Don't judge Him by His body or face, something like that.

Why is it that true Knowledge, in most cases, brings joy to people but in some people it drives them to despair?

Yes, that happens. A doctor cures many people, but he also kills many people. But he's a doctor. God helps those who help themselves, you know that. Patients who don't want to eat the medicine are always in despair. This is true. I can give you medicine that costs a million dollars - if you don't eat it, it won't cure you. The smell of the medicine won't cure you. You have to eat the medicine. The patients, the people who don't meditate upon this Name are always disappointed; they cannot get a hope in their lives. If this Knowledge has given peace to three million people - they aren't masters, they aren't angels from the sky, they are just human beings - if this Knowledge has given them peace, it is sure that this Knowledge will also give those people peace. But they will have to take the medicine. They will have to meditate upon this Name; then they will reach success. Not without it. And it is on one's ability, how much he does. People think medicine will touch their tongue and they will be cured. That never happens. Even an injection takes some time. A shot takes some time.

Since God is infinite, is the realization of God also infinite, is it an infinite process?

Everything concerning God is infinite, because He's infinite.

Guru Maharaj Ji, how have we come here? How have we come on this earth? How have we come away from God?

See, when a human being comes into this world, he is attracted by so many, so many things in this world, and he thinks that what he was seeing till now, what he was experiencing till now, is separate from this new experience. It is new for him. It's like a toy - it's always new for a child, see? If a child has never had any experience of a toy before, and I give him a toy, he will be very pleased. If what I have experienced before differs from this new experience, I think I must have it. And man is attracted, and as he is attracted, he is taken away from that world of God - away, away, away, away till he is now in a miserable position. He cannot think what he is, who he is, and so many things. That's why man was taken away from God, but it was only his fault that he was being attracted. But, because God has made so many things, again God comes in the shape of a Perfect Master, and again takes them to the same position they were in before. People who really have this Knowledge and meditate upon this, nothing seems to be new for them - it really is very ancient. And again they come to the same position as when they were babies: ignorant. Not ignorant of ego, but ignorant of what is going on in this world, because this world will go to hell; everybody knows that. Man shouldn't go to hell. This world will reach to complete destruction; man should not come to complete destruction. Man will reach destruction, but not complete destruction.

If there is doubt, will continual faith remove the doubt?

You see, doubt should be removed always. Doubt is the thoughts, and they should be removed, always removed. Doubt is the salt in our mouth, and whenever we go to taste the sweet we think it is salty. People who come here with doubts, questions, don't ask them. They think this Knowledge is bare, false,


just bare - nothing else. But after receiving this Knowledge, a man is busy meditating, and he hasn't got any time to think about doubts and things like that.

What about thinking about the rest of humanity?

What is the rest of humanity? You never created the rest of humanity; you are not supporting the rest of humanity, but you think you have to recover the rest of humanity? President Nixon is President of America, but he cannot control death; he cannot control life.

But once you receive Knowledge, you are still a part of the world?

See, listen. Whether you receive Knowledge or not, you aren't a part of this world. Have you ever seen a hotel? People come into it, but they aren't the citizens, they aren't the householders, they aren't the people who always stay there. People come and go. They aren't permanent, they aren't part of that hotel. They are just staying in that hotel. So many natures, so many people, so many things are around here.

Am I not to be concerned with the rest of humanity and what they do to each other?

Concerned you can be. Concerned to a limited point. Cooperate with Master to help humanity more and more; be limited to that point. You cannot do anything to humanity. Tell me, which minister has been able to control this humanity going to hell? Which minister? Even Krishna was a king, but He couldn't control the great war. He was supporting that war. Tell me which king, which president, which master has controlled this humanity. Only God can control this humanity. The Perfect Master can control this humanity, not the human beings. Human beings are themselves not perfect. And something perfect needs to lead imperfection into perfection.

A human being can't change the course of humanity, but can't you reach out and show kindness to your brother who is right beside you?

How many brothers are there in the world? And how many will you be showing kindness to? Twelve? A few? So then, what is a few? In this world a few means nothing. Absolutely zero. Make a medium. If you want to speak to the world, if you want to speak to about eighty people, a thousand people, don't speak just like that. Go into a radio station and then speak. Many people will be listening to you on the radios. Make that radio a medium. Many people will listen to you. The people who have been so famous were helping their Masters to do that, and the Master is Perfect. He can do that. He can help so many people. See? So make the Master your medium to help the people. Help Him - you'll help people. Cooperate with Him.

What part does a mantra play in meditation?

Nothing, nothing. It just makes your tongue in gears, that's all. Makes your mind flicker into some other way, that's all. But mind is still flickering. When I say "Ram, Rrrr-Aaaa-Ma," three times my mind flickers in one word: "Ram." More flickering of your mind - no good, no help. That is the question I place before people: "You say Ram today, but what were the people saying before.Ram was born, before there was something like Ram?" Chanting is an external thing. See?

Is it possible to understand without believing first?

First you have to see, then believe. People do the


Listeners The Young Prem Rawat Speaking

opposite of that: first they believe and then see. In comics - you have seen comics? There are many advertisements of many many things. People give their money and send for those things. But when those things come the people are disappointed. First they believed, and then they wanted to see it. First see it and then believe it.

Is it against the Will of God that more than a handful of humanity will ever become enlightened? Is it possible that the whole human race will ever become enlightened?

It is possible. This is possible. It is His nature. What He decides, He can do. There are no laws for Him. There are no regulations for Him. There is no limit for Him. He is Perfect. No laws can put Him into limitations. He is not bound by laws. He has made certain laws for humanity, but not for Himself.

Does He have a reason, now, for keeping most of humanity ignorant?

Yes, there is a reason, because He has created hell and somebody had to go in hell even. If nobody went to hell it would be useless, and He wants that nothing should be useless of Him so He makes hell and sends people there. And it is more useful for people to go in hell than in heaven, because in hell people learn lessons. But in heaven, they only enjoy.


In liberation they reach everything.

So what is the difference between heaven and release?

In heaven men have nothing to suffer about, you only enjoy the fruit. He does not learn a lesson there. He just enjoys it.

But release is the same, isn't it?

Release - it is no use to go in heaven, no use to go in hell, because one day you will have to come back again from heaven and again from hell. It is no use to go there. You go to Liberation and you cannot come back from there.

Then are hell and heaven both on this earth, and is liberation beyond this earth?

Hell and heaven are on earth, and liberation is just beyond all these points. There are two types of liberation. One is not to be concerned with this world. The other liberation is to be concerned with this world, but not this world directly, but to the Perfect Master: to be a devotee. Devotion. When you go to the Judge and He weighs your balance, right? and only your one balance is good, only good, and bad has been finished away with this Knowledge, He will ask you, "Okay, what do you want, liberation or devotion?" People who ask liberation just go there and sit there. They can do nothing. But people who ask for devotion come again onto this earth, but they don't suffer. It is always heaven for them, and they always stay with Perfect Masters. It is so very beautiful to be with the Lord. Whenever a Perfect Master will come, they'll come with Him.

If one receives Knowledge and dies and goes to heaven, is he one with God forever? Or would he return to this earth and …

After you receive this Knowledge you won't go to heaven.

Prem Rawat What is heaven?

Heaven? Heaven is a place where man eats sweet fruits, and when the sweet fruits finish he comes back, that's all. Heaven is a place where man enjoys himself, but after the petrol that he has for enjoyment finishes, he has to come back into this world again. But liberation is always heaven, permanent and constant heaven.

What is liberation?

Liberation? - where a man cannot return back again to this world, it is the place of God. Rivers come for so long, running, running, running, running, right? But when they reach their destination, which is the sea, they are completely satisfied. Then you cannot take out the river water from the sea. Can you take it out? That is liberation. When this soul is attached to God and is one with It, that's called liberation.

So even though one receives Knowledge he will come back to earth?

He won't come back to this earth. That is liberation, see? Never to come back again to this earth. Because you cannot take out the river water again from the ocean; it is mixed.

Are the souls of earth eternally reincarnated on this earth or …

They are incarnated? Who are they? Who are they? Souls are puppets of God, they aren't something else. If you want that you should live for one year, it's not possible. You will be killed when death will come. And if you want to be dead tomorrow, you cannot do that; you will be dead when death will come. I was reading a book and it said that death comes when a man has to die, not before it and not after it - on the exact second. Even if he commits suicide, death will come to him there; that's why he dies. There was one man in Bombay, and he was talking to his wife, and they were both enjoying themselves and his wife said, "Wait, I am bringing milk for you; it's time to sleep." And she went away, and when she returned the man was like this. She said, "What is the matter? Here is the milk." When she took up the hand, the whole body came up like this. And he was dead. He never wanted to die. He wanted to drink milk. When man thinks he is doing it himself, that is evil, that is devil, that is confusion, that is ego when man thinks, "Okay, I am doing this. I want to do this by myself." That is evil; that is devil; that is confusion, everything. But when a man is puppet of God, everything is just symmetrical.

Could you please explain the full nature of free will?

What do you mean by free will? What do you think free will is?

Man was created in the Lord, and where is the separation when man begins to use his will and not to use his free will; not to use his will to follow the Lord.


Is that - did I just answer my own question?

Every question has got an answer behind it. Question and answer cannot be separated. This is the main thing. They cannot be separated. Every question has got its answers behind it.

Doubt - how would you eliminate it?

Doubts are very bad. You shouldn't have any doubts in your mind.

But as an individualist you do.

Individualist would just go to the Perfect Master and get them removed, because they are very bad. Anything sour, bitter, or sweet comes, and you will


just have this old salty taste, that's all. That's not at all good.

But you were brought up in another culture and …

What is culture? Tell me what is culture? Does your culture tell you how to eat? Your mother told you, and your mother belongs to no culture. Eating food belongs to no culture. You eat food by mouth. Hindu people eat food by mouth. Christian people also eat food by mouth. Mohammedan people eat food by mouth; they don't eat food by their noses or eyes. Someone's ideas are culture - what he thinks is culture for him. Culture is nothing. See, what culture is - people think culture is something else, but what is it? I am a rich man, I am this culture, I can watch television, I can play with tape recorders, I can kick about, things like that. Another man hasn't any money. He cannot kick about, he cannot play tape recorders, because he hasn't got any money. His way will be separate. My way will be separate. This is it; it is not societies, something like that, it is just man's ideas. What is society?

You can't erase society.

Suppose a man is naked, what will he wash and what will he wear? There is no society, that is why you can't erase it. People think; it is just their confusion that there is a society thing. What is society, tell me? Society is always wrong. There was a girl, and Jesus was passing by and He saw that a huge crowd was standing with stones in their hands, and the girl was like this. He said, "What is the matter?" They said, "This is the girl who should be chucked out from the society." Jesus said, "What's the matter with her?" "Very bad, this is a very bad girl," they said. "She has committed many mistakes. She should be chucked out from society." And Jesus said, "Okay, what are you going to do now?" They said, "We are going to kill her by throwing stones on her." He said, "Okay, throw stones, but only the man who hasn't committed a mistake till now will throw stones on her." Everybody was quiet.

This is society - driving everybody to hell. Till now, which society has cured humanity. Tell me, which society has cured humanity till now? Till now we have been listening to people who have bombed and broken into pieces and killed after them, and so many things have happened. It is not a natural thing. It is a way of ideas combining people into one way, that's all. But it is not true. Countries are in war. That is society, that is society's doing. But is it good? No. What is the use of society, check it out from there - what has it taught you? That's why they are useless; that's why I don't believe in societies. I believe in what God has created, not in societies. I cannot touch society, I cannot feel society, I cannot talk to society.

You're talking to society right now.

No, everybody has got a different idea here. I'm not talking to society; I'm talking to people who are interested in this Knowledge. Do you think I'm talk-


Guru Maharaj Ji aka Prem Rawat

the sun wears no clouds
clouds form in earthly skies
my lord wears no veils
it is i who shade my eyes

the moon knows no shame
stars shine around her face
she thirsts for her lord
for without is empty space

my lord lifts my veils
heart faints before his eyes
my tears wash his feet
and all separation dies

ing to society? I would have never been in Boulder for that. Society is a place where people are formed into limitations and ideas. You must have heard about a society in India: Ladies' Welfare Society. The girls, the women, are bound into one law, into an order to do something. They call that society, but they go to hell there always. They do something wrong with their society always. But this is not society, this is question and answer. I am not talking to society. You are asking me questions and I am answering them. This is a group, and everybody has different ideas here. And everybody will become a group which will be called disciples and won't be a society, and there's a great difference between society and disciples. Well, there are other points …

To know myself, would I close my eyes to look within, to shut out …

To look at God, you have to look in the eyes of God, and God is inside so you have to shut your eyes and look inside.

Can you explain what Jesus' concept of the Trinity is? The Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

What is the Holy Ghost? First understand what is the meaning of Holy Ghost, what is the meaning of Father, of Son. First you understand the meaning of three, then you'll be able to understand what He means, Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Holy


Hills Ghost is Perfect Master; Son are we; Father is He.

If I call myself a Christian and I believe in the things Jesus taught, would I want to receive Knowledge from you?

Jesus taught this Knowledge.

It wouldn't be like denying Jesus then?

Jesus taught this Knowledge. Yes! Jesus taught this Knowledge. It has been clearly written in the Gospels. In The Bible and The Aquarian Gospel it has been clearly written about this Knowledge. And this is the same Knowledge. You won't be denying, you will be going further on the steps, and you'll be realizing who Jesus was. People think Jesus was a human being, but then they realize who Jesus was when they receive this Knowledge. We are looking at Jesus the same way as those crucifiers saw Him, same way, because He has given us nothing, that's all; He has just given us His name, that's all. But when we receive that Knowledge, we really know what He gave to those twelve disciples. He was not a human being. He was not a human being. Human beings prostrated before Him. He was not a human being. He was God, the Lord Himself.

Would you agree with me or disagree with me on this: having one's own individual beliefs, being an individual, isn't that the most important - taking your own path instead of following somebody else's path?

Ohhh, you cannot do that! Why? Tell me why? I'll tell you why. You want to go to San Francisco, and you want to go on the wrong road. You cannot do that; you will have to follow that particular highway to go there. You can make your way of life to live, but to know God you will have to follow a highway, only a highway has been built. See, if you believe or not, your goal is to follow God. You are following God anyhow. God is inspiring you to live. Whether you believe or don't believe, God will inspire you to live. He's so merciful. You don't believe it, and He believes in you. If you say something wrong about a king, a king will take you and put you into prison and kill you. But if you say something wrong about God, God is always merciful; He'll give you some more bliss about it.

Is it possible for you to get on radio or T.V. or something so more people can listen to you rather than a few, since a few can't encompass the whole?

Oh yes, it is possible. I think a mahatma or I will be on television Monday.

We live with our hearts and our hearts tell us that we want Knowledge, but sometimes our hearts fade and our minds take over. How do we bring back our heart?

I don't think heart has got anything to do with it. Heart only pumps blood, that's all. Heart has valves and pumps blood and makes it purified, that's all. That's a heart, yes? Take a biology book and you'll read what the heart is. That's your brain.

Is there more than one answer, more than one Knowledge?

What do you mean, more than one Knowledge?

It seems that there's an indication that when you receive Knowledge that there's one answer. And I seem to believe that there's more than one answer.

For? More than one answer for?


For any question.

Good, then you'll he contradicting yourself. Four and four are? Four and four are? Why not nine? Why not ten? Why not six? Why not seven? Why only one?

Well, I have heard that two and two is five, that's true.

You've heard but not seen. See then believe, not hear then believe.

Can you give Knowledge by appearing on television?

No, because there was no television in the ancient time. My father started his mission and took all the leaflets and made them free and distributed them among the people. What the people used to do is tear out the pages and put something to eat on them. But like my father said, "Put one paise even for a booklet, but don't make it free, because then the value reduces." That's why we are always here to tell you this Knowledge is precious, precious, precious, see?

I think that the reason why I can't meditate better than I do is the fear of giving up my reason, of losing my mind.

You have to lose your mind, that is good. It is not a fear. It is not a fear, it is confusion that you have in your mind. This confusion is useless. This confusion is just useless. One day you have to lose your mind, years ahead on the battlefield. Know that you have to die someday. If not then, now you'll die. But there's a fight. One day you have to lose your mind. Your mind is not permanent. One day you have to lose it. And if it is permanent, you can not lose it.

I've read in a book that in the Himalayan mountains there lives a master who is called Baba Ji, and it said in the book that he is sort of like a force behind the scene of all the great gurus that have come onto earth, and that …

Why is he sitting in the Himalayas? Till now, each God that came, came unto the people, not unto the Himalayas. He came unto the people and spoke so the people could hear about His Knowledge and receive it. Not unto the Himalayas. Who would go to the Himalayas? People who are busy, like a business man, they can't go to the Himalayas; they cannot do that. If God is omnipresent, then He'll come to everybody. If God is that. And if God is individual, then let Him be. Nobody bothers about Him. But God is for everybody, and when He'll come, He'll bring this Knowledge for everybody, into this world, not individual. That's why I don't believe in Hinduism, in Christianism, in any ism, because that makes it individual. A man who's Western, should he be a Christian? Why? Why this individuality? And it is like a color - that a father has black color, then son also should be black color. But if Christianity is universal, then it is not just for Westerners, it is for everybody. But why is only Hinduism only for Hindus? What is that? So I don't believe in it. God is for everybody, and I believe in that.

If there is always a Satguru on this earth, then why have only a few become well known to us, such as Jesus?

Listen, if people try, they will find them out, if they don't try, they don't find them out. Many cars pass over this road. People who are sitting in that veranda, in that gallery, aren't able to see them, and know which cars are passing here; if you are sitting in a room you aren't able to. The cars are passing. You must search for the Master.

Will you show us, if we receive your Knowledge, in what way we can best serve?

Yes, first receive the Knowledge.

If God is infinite, then why aren't the ways to God infinite?

It is infinite. It is infinite. It is perfect. God is perfect. The way to reach God is perfect.

I have my doubts.

No. It's the matter that you aren't understanding. You haven't received the Knowledge. Have you received Knowledge? So, you don't know.

I've received my own knowledge.

Oh well, that is your own. And that is your own belief.

It's very important to have your own belief.

Well, everybody has to have some beliefs, you see. It is important. Everybody has to do something wrong with himself. See, that Knowledge is infinite, perfect and very easy to learn, and omnipresent and is in everybody. This Knowledge is in everybody. Like God. Where God is, this Knowledge is with Him. You cannot separate your name with Him. Can you separate your name from you? Have you left your name in your cupboard? Wherever you will follow, your name will follow you. God is like that. Wherever God will follow, the way, the method to reach God, will follow Him. This is the way: attached to God always. Perfect.

We know that doubt is bad, but how do we get rid of it?

By Knowledge.

But can you go into the Knowledge still being confused?

When the confusions will finish, when the petrol finishes, the car will stop; it won't go anymore. When your confusions will finish, you'll go to another highway; your highway will be changed and you'll go to the other highway - peace and perfectness in you.


Where do responsibilities fit in, like a child, someone whose welfare you've taken upon yourself?

Everybody has his responsibilities. A Perfect Master has His responsibilities to look after His duties. A mother has responsibility to look after her child. A president has responsibility to look after his people.

I still don't understand what the relationship is when you were explaining the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and Satguru, and Guru, and Perfect Master. I don't understand what the relationship is.

Holy Ghost is the Perfect Master, Sons are we, and He is the Father. People who are existing on this earth are the Sons of God.

Then Jesus, was He just the Son of God?

Yes, yes, He was a Perfect Master. See, what is the Holy Ghost? The Holy Ghost is the same spirit as God. But when It has to take a human form It comes into that Holy Spirit. When God takes human form He is Perfect Master. Perfect. Because, except for God, nobody's perfect. So when He is the Perfect Master, He is Himself.

Was Jesus of God, or did He have to advance, did He have to be made perfect?

He had to be made perfect. That's why the Knowledge was given to Him, then He was perfect.

But He was once imperfect?


When we take on responsibility, are we then taking on hell?

No, if it is a responsibility which is correct, which is good, then it is not hell; it is a duty, and I don't think duty is hell.

Isn't that an attachment to something that is temporary?

No, it is not an attachment; it is a duty. If you own a shop, you have a responsibility towards that shop. You are tied to that shop because it is yours, and you have a responsibility to look after it. A duty.

How do you know if a responsibility is really yours or if you are just taking it from something?

Everybody feels that, everybody knows that, everybody can experience that, whether it is his responsibility or somebody else's. If a mother says, "I have no responsibility towards my baby," the baby will die.

Do you hold that Knowledge can only be given by an external Guru - an external manifestation of the Guru?

If you want to drink water you have the key first: the glass.

Suppose one gives up thirst?

He will die. He won't be existing in this world too long. Talk what is practical. Talk what is practical, not theoretical, not ideas. Talk what can be possible. Many people are just interested by imagining something. Nobody can give up thirst. People who give up thirst are only vampires I suppose. They haven't got souls in them. Even then, they drink blood.