"Jasper's" Posts on Ex-Premie Forum - 2010

Jasper's posts from other years are available at:

14th February 2010, 14:28:20 - Re: Fundraising for Fundraising's Sake

This reminded me of a "project" back in the 80's that I was highly honored to be asked to help with. It involved raising money for Rawat personally so he could purchase the land surrounding his original Malibu residence. This was a totally covert operation in that it could not leak out that the non profit organization was even associated with soliciting money for Rawat's personal use. There was a set of slides that were used to do one on one presentations to potential hand picked contributors to the project in their own homes. There was also a separate attempt to redirect non profit donations to Rawat by telling donators to split their donations in half and send one check to EVI and the other to Rawat personally. Anybody remember these in more detail?

15th February 2010 - Re: The larger mansion

This makes me think there is a larger story that needs to be told about the entire residence construction project. I have some thoughts and specific comments about it and will post a new thread in the next few days.

15th February 2010 - Re: Prem Rawat's Processes of Personal Enrichment ?

Having witnessed the house being built for years, there were hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of building materials provided by hand picked premies from around the world who ran various supply businesses or had connections. Specialists were brought in at their own cost under the guise of "Service to the Master" to apply their specific talent towards construction. Some of these folks were camping out in the hills amongst snakes and tumbleweed. The value of free materials and labor would easily extend into millions of dollars.

15th February 2010 - Re: Dunrite Productions

Confirmed; Monica Winslow is the same as Monica Lewis who is Rawat's mistress. She is 1/3 owner of Dunrite Productions per Ocker's research.

18th February 2010 - Rawat's Delusional World

In Rawat's World, he should have anything he wants at any time and at any cost. When Rawat sees something or imagines something, he simultaneously believes it should be his to own or control. That's the way God would have it and that's the way he believes it should be. God-like thinking and God-like power come naturally to Rawat. It feels good when the world responds correctly and accommodates his every desire. It feels good to be God.

Everything and everybody in Rawat's world is only there to serve him and his desires. People are not real. Instead they are functional props that only have value when providing fulfillment of his wishes. If they comply and provide benefit, they can stay. If not, they are disposed of quickly and shuffled off the stage. It was their fault anyway for being defective. There is no second thought or even a twinge of regret. There is no compassion, love, kindness, or understanding. Those are just magical words that when said with a tricky hypnotic voice, can trap vulnerable prey who might just provide for him in some interesting or exciting way.

He lives in a walled fortress on top of a hill with a panoramic ocean view. Its safe and patrolled by toy guards who protect and sustain the comfort of his personal security. Everything is right there; theater, studio, offices, food, accommodations, communications, various modes of transport, staff, servants, family, guests, etc. All the essentials. If anything else is needed it arrives upon request. When it seems necessary to appear before the ignorant but adoring masses, he weighs the effort required relative to his anticipated gain. They are the ones who really benefit from the privilege. He doesn't have to go at all.

The entire world is accessible via helicopter to the ever ready and waiting G550. He can fly the plane himself if he likes, or have the crew handle it all while he cavorts with his mistress, sips Campari, and nibbles on fresh shrimp. The departures are complete with waving devoted admirers. The arrival is the same only the faces are slightly changed. There are meticulously prepared houses or suites all set up just the way he likes. More cars, toys, and items of interest. Then there is that special time when he gets to show them how powerful he is. That's when he climbs back up on his rightful throne and dutifully repeats the standard script, while throwing in a good solid performance to feel proud of later. Its kind of a game to see how well he can captivate those plastic smiling faces. It feels good to become the single focus of attention for thousands of them all at once. They'll listen all right.

Sometimes there are nasty things that have to be done. It can be hard work to keep it all in place. And there are always some pestilent vermin who try to infest his world. Some of those can be troublesome. Why can't they see how special he is? No one really understands how hard it is to have to always be the one in charge. He really does deserves anything he wants just for being so tolerant. But it doesn't really matter at all. No one can hurt you when you are God.

26th February 2010 - Re: Did anyone else get lost on the way home from a program?

Maybe the biggest jumble of anxiety, bliss, and mental/emotional tension was trying to drive with Rawat sitting next to you, knowing HE was God, through an unreal world, that didn't matter anyway until you screwed up! Then the world would suddenly really matter and of course he would notice and make sure you knew it was not OK and all your fault. How the hell does anyone process that batch of confusion???

27th February 2010 - Jumble

Thanks Ocker. This thread really got me thinking about how twisted up I was with everything Rawat spoon fed us about ourselves, life, the world, spirituality, and the purpose of it all. That cocktail of bullshit really touched every aspect of my being and created a perspective and foundation of thinking that was really quite bizarre.

I'd be sitting in the car waiting for him to arrive while shoehorning my mind and actions into what was supposed to be "perfect". Car; perfect. Squeaky clean, tire pressure within an ounce, fluids, bottled water, maps and routes rehearsed, cabin temperature, passenger seat position, even the parking position. When I'd pull up to a curb where he would get in, there was always the question of how close to get. If the car was too close to the curb he might have to stretch his leg to the sidewalk a couple of inches. If it was too far, he might have to place his foot in the gutter of the street and risk a smudge or cigarette butt on his holy shoe.

I'd have to practice the routes repeatedly to study road conditions, signs, traffic patterns, and timing. One route had a couple of railroad crossings which were a little rough to drive over. I'd practice various speeds to determine exactly how fast to go to minimize bumps inside the car. God forbid a train would come along forcing a wait with him in the car. That might waste a few minutes of his precious time most likely resulting in blame for not reviewing all train schedules.

Then I would perversely attempt to meditate by heavy breathing, to get out of my mind. This exercise actually added an entirely extra level of stress because I always felt he could read my mind. Somehow he would know whether or not I was spiritually worthy of being with him. There was a state of blankness that I continually searched for which would magically cause me to be in the moment and act perfectly, like I was supposed to.

Of course all of this was overlaid by the haunting thought that I was actually the most fortunate human in the entire universe by being granted this unique and special privilege. At the same time, there was the threat of a screw up which could condemn me to eternal damnation. A single event could determine the difference between liberation from the cycle of birth and death or a dark fate at the uncaring hand of bad Karma.

So, driving him culminated in a strange mix of conflicting mental and emotional thoughts and feelings while attempting to create a perfect physical situation to accommodate Rawat's unreasonable demands. I guess after all that, if I could still carry on a casual conversation with him, that was the true test of reaching some kind of state of enlightenment. Being chatty and relaxed with all that going on meant Knowledge was really working.

28th February 2010 - Jumble

Dead on Cynthia. In fact this entire thread is right on the nerve of the chaotic and turbulent mix of physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual torment Rawat cooked up and spoon fed us all. Of course, it can only be seen as ultimately part of Rawat's hidden strategy to gain control of our Souls with his sights on our adoration and resources to satisfy his greed.

28th February 2010 - How about MY Daddy???

He warned me about Rawat when I was 20 years old but I didn't listen to him. Instead I went off on a 34 year odyssey chasing what I believed to be eternal enlightenment. My Dad was right all along; Rawat was a lying, stealing, hypocrite, who was out to take me for all I had. My Dad died a few years ago knowing he had lost his son to a cult. In his last thoughts he might have seen a vision of Rawat rubbing his bloody hands together, snickering and drooling, while spewing the words out of his foaming mouth; "He's mine………………"

17th March 2010 - Translation…..

"I don't know you. I don't know your name.
But I do love you, because you are a human being.
That is sufficient for me to open up my heart and bring forth to you all that I know."
-Prem Rawat / Maharaji

"I don't know you, I don't know your name. I really don't give a crap about you. In fact you're really lucky I'm even giving you even a flicker of my precious attention. You appear to be a human being; one of the faceless pitiful masses who are annoying but necessary. You may be able to give me money. I could use a new car or maybe that watch I saw in my latest edition of Yachting World magazine. Let's face it, you are stupid and probably a sucker for that old trustworthy "I love you" trick. Most of you fall for that line because of some residual parental issue or from being raised on Fairy Tales.

I'll go first. Watch how I do it. See; all that love between us has caused MY heart to open up to you. Now its your turn. Go ahead, its only fair. If you love me too, I promise I have a magical secret that I'll share with you. I will bring forth to you "all that I know" and it will change your life. You will feel true love from your heart, that in my complete compassion, I have now opened up for you. How fortunate you must be! You are so lucky to have found me and you've done nothing to really deserve your great fortune. But there IS a way to return the favor. Give me all your money."

Hey Mitch, How's that for a little education? Hope it brings out the true meaning of Rawat's words with some innate wisdom for you. Just trying to help you find a way out of that cloudy delusion. Wish you the best.

24th March 2010 - Rawat Revealed

"Psychopaths are brilliant at faking human emotions. They study people to learn how to imitate human emotions."

The only 2 emotions I ever saw expressed by Rawat were arrogance and anger. Both were somewhat concealed behind the thin disguise of his role as "Master". His anger was mostly clothed by an air of constant displeasure. Nothing was ever good enough for him and this created a continuous undertone of irritation. Periodically it would erupt in inexplicable fits of rage. His arrogance was more apparent. Rawat simply presented himself in no uncertain terms, as knowing anything about everything. Of course, in his role as "Master", that quality was expected and even encouraged among his followers (us).

An individual with such crippling and incompetent social abilities, would find it nearly impossible to function effectively in the real world. Rawat therefore had to carefully orchestrate his brief episodes of public exposure. Mary Moore's reference to the Flight Training trailer provides the perfect example. At Flight Training, Rawat was forced to spend hours and days in a classroom type setting with other pilots from around the world. During periods of instruction, no interaction with his classmates was necessary. In fact, it was most likely discouraged. After all, this was a classroom with lectures presented by an instructor. He was safe and protected by the prevailing code of formal behavior.

However, during breaks he was exposed. The uncomfortable and distressing possibility suddenly would exist that an "outsider" would actually be able to talk to him. Lacking the social ability to even comprehend how to deal with such a threat, Rawat found a solution. His staff would arrange to park a well supplied motor home just outside the door of the building for his privacy and comfort. This was most likely explained to the Gulfstream Administration as a necessary and much appreciated amenity, so Rawat could conduct urgent and pressing business. After all, an individual of such high ranking importance had to attend to a variety of critical tasks in private.

The fact remains that Rawat constantly utilizes this same strategy to avoid any social interaction as he waffles around in his angry and arrogant delusion. His only strength is his uncanny ability to disguise himself as an aloof but all knowing spiritual leader who simply is above it all. There are just enough vulnerable individuals in the world to have fallen victim to his ploy. His success is fully dependent on living a lie.

25th March 2010 - The Bold Line Fades

"I once again felt the pain of being forced by truth to distance myself from the very foundation of my most deeply held faith, convictions and experience."

"What do you do when it comes down to a choice between your "experience" and your own conscience and moral commitment to what is right and true? In the case of premies, it is particularly difficult because in one way or another, their "experience" is entirely dependent upon Prem Rawat."

Good thoughts Lakeshore. This makes me think about how Rawat really never addresses a code of moral behavior in his "teachings". His entire dogma side steps issues involving right and wrong by drawing a Big Bold Line to define what is really important. On the important side of the line is Himself and His agya: practice knowledge, listen to His satsang, and do His work thinly disguised as service. On the other side of the line is everything else: including any understanding or recognition of what is acceptable moral behavior.

After being repeatedly exposed to Rawat on a very personal level, it became very clear that his code of behavior was completely at odds with mine. In fact, his behavior was also at odds with how I believed he should act relative to his role as my "Master".

I simply could no longer disassociate Rawat's teachings from what I knew as right or wrong behavior. The started to fade and eventually dissolve. I had to consolidate my thoughts and feelings by uniting my spiritual self with my conscience. Living my life based on belief in a fragmented lie became intolerable. That's what eventually caused me to defect from the cult.

26th March 2010 - Re: Was There Ever A Bold Line?

The I'm referring to is more like a picture frame around Rawat and Knowledge. Inside the frame is Rawat and obedience to Him. Outside the frame is everything else, including an individual's understanding of morality or right and wrong. As long as a premie is attending to the important affairs inside the frame, all is well according to the Rawat dogma. Let that which is outside the frame be as it may.

This lends itself to the universal appeal of Rawat's "its all perfect anyway" messaging. His reach to encompass a broader base of potential followers is extended almost indefinitely. At the same time it provides a backdrop which enables a lack of moral accountability within the organization and for his own behavior.

FYI Marianne, I received Knowledge in 1973 at the tender age of 21. At that time, I was thoroughly convinced that Rawat was freely giving away enlightenment. I believed that the experience alone would easily encompass and simply take care of all the other relatively insignificant details of life. It took 34 years for my conscience and innate sense of judgement to reawaken. At least now I've begun to reengage in the process of personal development and experience life outside the confines of Rawat's picture frame world. What a relief.

26th March 2010 - Flying elbows….

At the risk of sending this thread off track, how the hell is a 60 something year old guy supposed to keep those elbows up for 15 straight minutes while simultaneously relaxing into some kind of transcendental experience? It simply defies all logic. At the same time Knowledge is presented as being practical for everyone. In fact for those that don't have any, arms and even thumbs, aren't really necessary. That single elemental flaw is enough to derail the credibility of the entire batch of knowledge techniques.

The only reason for the ban on barragons that I can think of would be a liability issue for Rawat. Some smart litigation attorney probably dropped a personal injury lawsuit naming Rawat as a defendant when a premie got tendonitis or a pinched nerve in their arm. Needless to say, the result was a lifetime sentence to sore shoulder muscles for the remaining thousands of Rawat's followers caused by the flying elbow modification. Go figure…….

26th March 2010 - Flying elbows….

Welcome ELO! Let's face it, we all must have cheated with the elbow thing. But during practice sessions at programs, we were on our best behavior with elbows flying on sheer will power! I'd keep those elbows high on just the thought that Rawat himself might peek through the curtain and see me slouching a bit. Funny, when I'd crack an eye lid to scope out how the rest of the room was handling the pain, everyone was locked in perfect form. Amazing! Of course that would reinforce the belief that knowledge could overcome any physical limitation. At the same time, I'd feel guilty for being the only premie in the room that was still struggling with such petty details as agonizing shoulder burn. Afterwords, there seemed to be a prevailing aura of smug self satisfaction for having muscled through the tortuous event. Rawat would probably get a buzz knowing he could control his masses to perform such a contorted act on his simple command. Looking back it all seems terribly shallow and empty now.

29th March 2010 - Re: His latest and greatest

Last time I drove Rawat, just a couple of years ago, he described his latest new car purchase to me in glorious detail. Quite the comfortable ride to the hanger where the G55 awaits with anxious crew standing by. Apparently the automobile has finally matured to meet his exacting tastes. Available well equipped, for upwards of a few hundred thousand, to the discriminating few who can appreciate true elegance.

http://www.maybachusa.com/62/maybach-62.php

"Jasper"

30th March 2010 - Rawat-think: a little story

Not that long ago I was driving Rawat on a brief commute. We usually chatted a bit about cars, planes, stereos, and other expensive stuff. I mentioned that a CD player I had in my stereo system was malfunctioning and I wasn't sure it could be repaired. He quickly and graciously replied with his idea for a simple fix to my problem. Why not get a new player, and while I was at it, upgrade to one of a little better quality? After thinking for a minute, he suggested I go out and buy the same model he was enjoying in his own system at home. As his excitement about the idea began to grow, Rawat grabbed his cell phone and called the residence to confirm the brand and model. Yup, it was the DCS Scarlatti, recently rated as the world's best. Later, when I checked it out, the price was a little prohibitive; $80,000.00!!!

What got me the most about this encounter was his callous disregard for the actual cost of the thing. Somehow in Rawat's delusional mind, he assumed that because he thought the idea was a good one, it should therefore automatically happen. Apparently, during his excitement, he had absorbed me into his bubble of unreality for a fleeting moment. Once inside the bubble with him, the same principal of unrestricted consumption applied to me. In Rawat's self absorbed world of obsession and greed, if he wants something, he gets it. So, since I was temporarily invited into his bubble world, Rawat's natural conclusion was, of course I should have the CD player! The money was an insignificant detail and would somehow just handle itself.

This little story reveals the depth of Rawat's narcissistic delusion. He lives in a world that revolves entirely around himself and the fulfillment of his desires. Love to Rawat is the condition where he grants to another what he thinks or wants them to have. He simply knows what's best for everyone. To Rawat, love is the self effacing experience he feels, when he condescends to bestow his brilliance or precious attention upon the undeserving. That's all that matters. Other people are simply receptacles that he can fill with thoughts of his own greatness.

http://www.stereophile.com/hirezplayers/dcs_scarlatti_sacdcd_playback_system/

"Jasper"

31st March 2010 - More details….

Forgot about the $189,000.00 speakers to go with that CD player. Nothing less than the Avante Garde Trios. They were shipped directly to Malibu for Rawat's private listening pleasure.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/avantgarde/trio_2.html

"Jasper"

31st March 2010 - More details….

Rawat was always trying to scheme up some new business idea to make money so he didn't have to depend so much on donations. Even back in the early 90's I was asked to participate in a couple of "workshops" with other premie entrepreneurs, to trouble shoot business models. At the time it seemed like such a special honor to be involved. The few of us who were invited, were lured into these meetings by the secret chance that Rawat might actually acknowledge our efforts. Better yet, it was believed that some of the business ideas had a great chance for success. After all, this was service to the greatest living incarnation of God himself to have ever walked the planet. Surely, business was small potatoes to someone with those credentials. It was all knowingly understood, as a cosmic set up, so we could have the privilege of participating in Rawat's magical play while here on Earth.

The most memorable scheme involved the potential launch of Rawat's Chocolate Candy Business about 7 years ago. This idea was held in such high regard that it was presented before a relatively large group of major donors for a little creative feedback. There were probably 20 of us assembled for a special critically important meeting. It just might include a personal visit from the Boss himself. The meeting was scheduled during an event weekend at mid day between programs, so we all thought he might really show up. To avoid too much suspense I'll just tell you now; he didn't.

We were herded together in a private room and fed the standard lecture that all of us had to be sworn to secrecy. What we were about hear was of the absolute highest importance and originated from a specific wish that Rawat himself had expressed. The implied penalty was, first off, Rawat's extreme personal displeasure with any violators. No one wanted to be singled out as the target of his wrath. The real penalty however, as we all understood, was a sentence that included burning in hell for eternity.

The business concept itself seems pretty laughable, as I think back. Rawat's grand idea was to introduce a line of individually wrapped, bite sized chocolate candies. There would be at least 3 flavors; milk chocolate, dark chocolate, and mint. We were even presented with samples of each supposedly selected by Rawat himself, and validated to be good enough to carry his brand. The candy would be sold at gift shop check out counters or other boutique type specialty stores. Of course we all knew there were already hundreds of different chocolate candies available to choose from. Competition would be fierce. But here's where Rawat's candies had the edge and a sure fire competitive advantage over all others. Inside each piece of chocolate, the consumer would find a typed message. The message would be an inspirational quote from none other than, you guessed it; Rawat himself!!! These candies would be like chocolate Chinese fortune cookies, only better. They would have been touched by the infinite wisdom of Rawat and shoppers would naturally purchase them by the car load.

The buzz in the room was of absolute approval. No one wanted to question what had already been presented as Rawat's best yet plan to permanent financial security. But I remember quietly thinking to myself in the back of my mind; "gee, even the candy sucks, let alone the stupid fortune cookie idea". Being the good premie that I was however, these dark and evil thoughts were quickly suppressed. I smiled a fake smile, and joined the group in our wholehearted endorsement. As far as I know, nothing ever happened about it after that. Guess it might have required a little effort to think up and edit all those amazing secret messages.

31st March 2010 - Re: Rawat's Chocolate Factory

"being involved with Rawat has provided, at least for some, entrepreneurial benefits."

I'm not sure I could name a single premie who benefited from a business relationship with Rawat, except for his mistress. She of course, was simply set up by him. Rawat's main role or involvement in premies' businesses would seem to be sucking income from an unsuspecting and vulnerable victim.

Can't remember who it was that moderated the Candy project for Rawat. Maybe someone else in the forum has more information.

2nd April 2010 - Re: But really, what would we do?

"I was sure my opportunity had finally arrived, so I went out with an ecstatic feeling. I was within ten feet of his car and another co-worker (former Australian instructor Victor Marsh, actually) was talking to him. He never even glanced my way, but I was able to gaze lovingly at him. In my premie logic, my hope was still alive and the longing that my dream would come true at some future time was truly possible."

This is an amazing description of the effect the cult has on Rawat followers. I don't really understand it but I felt the same thing many times. Even after physically being around Rawat for long periods while driving him, I'd sometimes find myself in a semi catatonic state of reverie. Of course, I'd be absorbed in my breath and vigilantly controlling my thoughts while simultaneously grabbing on to any romantic visions of a spiritual experience I could find. The resulting stupor may have just been a result and side effect of all that.

I do believe that Rawat is really one of the most cowardly individuals I've ever met. He's afraid of people and I think he scares himself. In fact the entire organization is laced with cowardice and fear. When I quietly left without a single word after 34 years as a major donor, personal driver, part time valet, and "friend" of the family, no one at all ever even called. It was weird. It seemed as if somehow there was an unspoken understanding of voluntary banishment. The void with no contact had a strange resonance to it. The empty sound and feeling that lingered for months was saying something like "we don't really care about you but just keep quiet concerning what you know."

I can't imagine any organization of any kind not reaching out to one of its most active participants who suddenly and quietly disappeared. You'd think they would follow up out of common decency and concern. But surely, any group that lost a donor who gave significantly for over 30 years, would aggressively attempt to reach out, just to try to preserve the revenue. The only conclusion is that they are scared stiff.

3rd April 2010 - Maybe a 1959 but this seems close?

"Something which might describe the relationship between Rawat and Sordoni relates to Sordoni's ownership of a classic sports car, I can't remember the make, but at some point Sordoni either gifted that car to Rawat, or Rawat actually bought an identical one."

http://www.gullwingmotorcars.com/detail-1956-mercedes~benz-300sl_gullwing-other-used-5171737.h

(P.S. - if this link doesn't come up live can anyone tell me how to copy and paste so it does??? Thanks.

"Jasper"

4th April 2010 - Or is it possession and control?

I agree but think it really goes much further than that. The fact is he probably almost never listens to that sound system. Its just there; representing his own inflated self image, safely held in his possession and control. In the same way, he tries to collect and control followers and places the richest and best on display in the front rows at programs. Then he sits back on his throne gazing at his admiring masses, and manipulates them in any way he so desires. For added effect, Rawat films and photographs every minute to enhance his self importance and self promotion. Then he can simply add that "record" to his shelf as part of his growing vintage collection.

It makes me remember how important statistics were to Rawat. He would meticulously track and measure success by the number of new aspirants, knowledge sessions, premies, major donors, countries with programs, translation languages, you name it. The entire driving force behind the cult was always propagation and growth with an eye on absorbing the whole world.

It really is kind of like listening to his stereo with remote in hand. He controls the volume. He controls the track. He controls the balance. Or like driving a responsive car or flying an expensive airplane. He controls direction. He controls speed. He controls the cabin. He controls it all. The more expensive, the bigger, the more complex, the more people it involves; the more satisfying it is to his gluttonous need for his own voracious consumption.

Rawat feeds on things. He stuffs his fat jowls with tidbits of his personal selection. Then measures the degree to which that item meets his impossible standards of pleasure or delight. If he enjoys it, he may have another. If not, he may just spit it out. Rawat feeds on people in the same way. He voraciously feeds on his followers to curb his insatiable appetite for power, possession, and control. He favors the rich and tasty, but enjoys the flavors of variety while requiring a large supply to nourish and fortify himself. Rawat fed on me too. I hope he's having a bad case of indigestion.

7th April 2010 - Re: From Santa Monica program…

I think the woman behind Rawat is Josie (? spp) his personal assistant who travels with him.

"Jasper"

The men at the back are premie doctors, Dr Henry Warszawski and Dr Ed Hanzelik

14th April 2010 - The "Gift"

"If it wasn't for the gift of what I
call Knowledge -
a practical way to go inside and connect with the beauty within -
all my words would be empty."

Funny how this first quote from the booklet really sums it all up: If it wasn't for the idea that Knowledge is a "gift" given by Rawat, he would have NO significance and the entire cult would unravel. Of course the real irony is that Rawat's extravagant luxury world is totally subsidized by the "gifts" that are given to him by those who have been duped into believing. Amazing how Rawat projects the idea of "gift" then reaps the benefit of that same idea for himself.

20th April 2010 - Avoidance strategy

"Rawat has always avoided close contact with premies. I think that he never has cared for premies much except from his perch on a stage where he could completely control his environment."

Well said Cynthia and pardon me for selectively editing your comments. But its true, Rawat continuously avoids everyone, even in the inner circle of those he works with regularly. His exposure is in fact limited to an "as necessary" basis to protect his personal interests in property, or to exert a controlling influence on his followers. Rawat knows he is a fake and applies a strategy of avoidance to reduce the chance that he will be discovered for the charlatan that he really is. The less he's around premies, the less he has to work to provide cover, by acting out his assumed role as Master. He avoids normal people completely because they are not under his intoxicating spell. They may see through him and his game a little more easily. Normal people have not been stripped of their innate ability to discriminate effectively, like premies have.

20th April 2010 - Fear, anger, and greed

"He refuses to interact with premies in any way that could be described as normal, always putting up barriers as if he's trying to protect himself from them or keep them at a safe distance. He acts as if he's more afraid of premies than fond or appreciative of them."

Right on target Lakeshore. But its not just Premies, Rawat is afraid of, its everyone. He refuses to interact with other pilots who are his professional colleagues at flight training. Instead he takes shelter in his own private motor home to avoid the possibility of interaction. He has become alienated from his entire extended family except for Raja Ji, who really doesn't have much to do with him. I'm convinced Raja Ji sticks around because he's getting a free ride at the expense of his brother's premies.

Rawat keeps his immediate family quarantined within the walls of his compound on the hill in Malibu. Are the walls there to keep them in as well as to keep out intruders? He designed his house so that each child would have their own personal quarters hoping and intending that they would never leave. Rawat has no real friends, just occasional visitors that he invites to stop by on rare occasions, for brief visits and his own personal amusement. He has no work associates because he doesn't work. Rawat may not be capable of becoming close to anyone because he's afraid of interacting or engaging in meaningful relationships. He's incapable of real love.

I spent hours with Rawat and in some ways may have been about as close as anyone ever really got to him. We interacted in a friendly way but it never reached a level of comfort where there was any real personal substance to it. He just could not engage. Instead, he would act aloof or pontificate about a variety of subjects, mostly to impress me with his self absorbed superior intelligence. It was always strikingly obvious how extremely critical he could be of anyone or anything. This aggressive dialog was most likely a defensive tactic so he could more comfortably keep his distance.

That may explain why Rawat is so obsessed with accumulating things. Instead of becoming close to people, Rawat substitutes things as his objects of love and affection. Since those objects can't really love him back or provide what he needs, he obsessively collects more and better things in an attempt to fulfill his insatiable misplaced desire for real love. Its an endless cycle that requires an inexhaustible supply of money. He needs premies to provide the money to fuel the cycle. Underneath this self destructive and unfulfilling drive and obsession, Rawat is seething with anger because he never gets what he really needs. The anger is unleashed on the same premies he depends on to fuel the cycle. Premies are the victims of his greed for money and things and misplaced need for love, while presenting an easy target for his self generated rage.

All of this is carefully disguised by the variety of dramatic characterizations that we are all familiar with; the Lord of the Universe, the Enlightened Master, the Compassionate Teacher, the Renaissance Benefactor, the Charitable Philanthropist, etc., etc., etc. Underneath all that is a confused, terrified, empty, troubled and sociopathic narcissist who preys on others to try to satisfy his obsessive needs. That's the real Prem Rawat who was clearly exposed, laughing hysterically and maniacally at everything and everyone, blind drunk in the back seat of my car.

21st April 2010 - Re: OK, but what about ordinary people?

"That is why, imo, as important as he believes his message is, he refuses to take propagation seriously."

Its not just Rawat who doesn't take propagation seriously; its the same devoted premies who claim to follow him. For years Rawat would scold us at programs for not doing enough aggressive propagation. He has always assigned premies the task of grabbing new converts and seducing them into the ranks. He's pushed premies out in front of himself as human shields because he knows if he went public himself the press and media would tear him apart!

The problem for Rawat is that his premies are afraid to promote the cult too. Why is it that despite all the agya, verbal thrashings, and constant pressure from Rawat to "do propagation", his premies just don't do it??? Honestly, I was too embarrassed to tell anyone that I truly respected, that I was a Rawat follower and certified member of a cult. Normal people would think I was crazy! It would have been bad for my business and career, bad for my social standing or acceptance in the community I lived in, bad for any relationship I had with normal friends, bad for my children and the branding they would endure, bad for just about everything. It would have also been fruitless; nobody I knew would have been stupid enough to fall for Rawat's ploy.

So here's where the rubber meets the road APP. How much real propagation have you been up to? We all understand you are a devoted follower of Rawat and defend him, his actions, his teachings, and his Knowledge. But do you take his message to the streets like he has told you to do? My guess is that you are gridlocked like we all were. Afraid to tell anyone outside the cult, for all the same reasons as outlined above.

Why? Because it is a secret, private cult, that exists solely to serve as Rawat's personal piggy bank. We all knew it but just didn't want to admit it. We had invested too much of our lives and emotional equity. As far as your rationalizing that Rawat really isn't God or doesn't claim to be, we've already covered that. Just ask yourself; do you pray to him? Because if you do then you believe he's God…..

So, let's think about both these ideas at the same time APP. You believe Rawat is God, proven by he fact that you probably pray to him and talk to him all the time inside your head. But at the same time, you most likely avoid doing what he wants you to do which is propagation. If he is God, why wouldn't you be out there telling the entire world, and find that real easy to do? My guess is that if you take an honest look at yourself, you'd realize what we all have; he's a fake.

Just like Lakeshore said, leaving the cult was the hardest thing I've ever done, but necessary and really worth it. Until I was able to break loose from Rawat's spell, I just couldn't see it for what it is. Best of luck and wish you well.

21st April 2010 - Re: and adoration and false love…

Thanks Mike for putting the finishing touches on what I was trying to say. And thank you Cynthia for your kind comments and reassurances.

All of this is absolutely true and gets to the very heart of who Rawat is. In reality he is the exact opposite of who he presents himself to be. He's not a mighty, all knowing, spiritual leader; just a scared, desperate, empty follower of his own cravings and desires.

It feels great to regain my humanity again after having it stolen away by Rawat and his cult. Thanks to everyone on the forum; reading and posting here is the best medicine I've found for a shredded heart.

24th April 2010 - Re: Thank you, Lakeshore

Just found your post here and want to give you a big personal Thank You! Kind of feels like we're working out some of this stuff together and I really appreciate your words and your support. Here's to many more posts and the hope that others may join us in finding real freedom!

8th May 2010 - Many thanks to those who post……

"You know, we might not make much, or even not any difference in the general game - but for ONE person it might be THE difference of their lifetime. And if this happens, we've done a good job."

Just wanted to say how much the forum has meant to me as recently as just this last year, while I painfully extracted myself from the cult. I know I could not have done it without all of your help. Three years ago, no one would have thought I would ever leave, especially myself. There are many others who just need a helping hand like I found here. And Rawat needs to know we'll keep the pressure on. My guess is this really does get to him and that's a good thing. Thanks to you all.

9th May 2010 - Re: Rawat Recycles Rubbish

Last close look I had he was sitting on my right with a good view of the left side of his left face; no mole. That was just a couple of years ago.

"Jasper"

13th May 2010 - Re: My Resignation from the Forum

Thanks Mike for all that you have done for me and others like me who have needed a helping hand. Somehow I feel like you'll always be around as a friend who can be trusted in a time of need. If I can ever return the favor please let me know. Best of luck in all you do. I've got a few more stories to post and will be sticking around the forum for a little well targeted Rawat bashing and to clear out some remaining residual. I never was much for engaging in dialog here but I do believe in being respectful and maintaining the dignity of all who post. Guess most points can be made while still maintaining those qualities and I appreciate how you have consistently upheld those principals. Thanks again and take care.

17th May 2010 - "Don't let it get to you."

"He paused for a few seconds, looked away, and then quickly rattled off the words, "Don't let it get to you." Upon sensing my dismay, he repeated more firmly, "Don't let it get to you." Then utter silence. He had no more to say."

I just reread one of my original posts titled "Stark Reality" [post not available]and pulled this quote. It describes a conversation I had with Rawat only a couple of years ago. Reading that post again reminded me of how far I have come in less than a year, with the help of this forum. Confronting the pain and trauma involved in disassembling nearly a lifetime of false belief is almost insurmountable. I don't believe I could have done it without all of you and your support and encouragement.

I have not always agreed with everyone's comments or opinions as posted. That's OK. For me, that's not what this forum is all about. This forum is much more than simply entertainment, intellectual sparring, or information gathering. To me it represents and facilitates true liberation from the horror of Rawat's destructive reign of control and subjugation over innocent victims lives.

Often when I'm troubled, it helps to step back for a minute and look at the bigger picture to gain a better perspective. From that view, problems and challenges can be less intimidating and solutions a little more clear. Perhaps this is an appropriate time for us to refocus on the true purpose of the forum, and be a little better off for that opportunity.

My heartfelt thanks to everyone for being here and for all of your generous help and support. I've been working up a fresh post for a couple of weeks. Its about the damage to the decision making process and resulting destruction caused by Rawat and the cult. Now that I'm learning how to actually make decisions, there seems to be a good bit to say about that. Just need a little time. Thanks again and I look forward to continuing to read and post as much as I can.

21st May 2010 - Re: "Don't let it get to you."

"That I can't trust the normal rational basis for making decisions, but that there is an elusive "right answer" that it is incumbent on me to divine, or discern, through an unclear, highly subjective process of "feeling" what is the right course."

Thanks for your comments and this is a great synopsis of exactly what I've been thinking about! This is an absolutely fantastic statement about the way most of us were seriously compromised in our ability to function effectively. During my indoctrination by Rawat and the cult, my rational processes for critical analysis were seriously crippled. The result looking back, was that I made some terrible decisions which have turned out to be important in the long run. We are all faced with "fork in the road" situations at various times in our lives. The outcome of those decisions and which way we choose to go, can have a staggering impact.

I just feel like this topic needs a really thorough discussion and have spent several hours thinking through it. Hopefully I'll find some time soon to organize my thoughts and notes and get them posted to encourage some healthy discussion. Thanks for your comments and look forward to more of your good ideas and those of others.

31st May 2010 - Re: Another Rawat shell company, another Rawat property?

"all of Rawat's income, that pays for properties like this, has been acquired from the belief he instilled in his followers that he is the Lord, deserving of the wealth of the world."

The gluttony and greed of Rawat apparently has no end and he clearly has no conscience. Its baffling in hindsight, to think about how little Rawat actually offers (nothing) while expecting so much in return. The only conclusion is that he is an absolute predator who feeds on his victims with no concern whatsoever for anything but his own self satisfaction.

The amazing side story to this is how he has absorbed other normal human beings, who had a conscience to begin with, into his psychopathic world. Marolyn of course, is the first to come to mind. I personally knew Marolyn for many years. In the early days of the cult, I'm sure she thought Rawat was God incarnate like we all did. From there, I watched her evolve from a kind, generous, appreciative, caring individual, into something else. It was almost as if after years of being entrapped by Rawat, she abandoned those more human qualities and succumbed to complete subjugation by Rawat and his greed. The tightly controlled world he created absorbed her and her humanity like a dark windowless tomb. There was no way out. Perhaps this beach house was a retreat for her, to find sanctuary from the torrid domination of the dreaded Rawat. His rule of the mansion on the hill was like the FeFiFoFum giant who would crush those who caused interruption or inconvenience with their more human curiosities.

Rawat's control of all his victims seems to follow a similar pattern. He starts with attraction and impossibly seductive promises; world peace, enlightenment, or the thrill and fun of just playing around with God. From there, he begins to control the thought and decision making processes of his prey and creates a dependency on him to define the parameters of their reality. As rationality is diminished and replaced with obedience, a deeply entrenched fear paralyzes the victim and holds them in the clutches of their "master". Rawat has conditioned his followers to believe he alone is responsible for all good that happens. At the same time, all bad is caused by a lack of diligence or true obedience to Rawat. Then to top it off, Rawat teaches that he deserves the credit for this formula and reaps the bounty in gifts and donations from those he has conditioned.

Best of luck to all the premies in hope that you may find the fortitude to gain release from the imprisonment of Rawat's dark world.

"Jasper"

2nd June 2010 - Re: I'd like to know what is happening in that family

The last few times I saw Marolyn, she was either drunk or hung over. I distinctly remember one 30 minute conversation I overheard, that she was having with herself. The subject was, when ordering take out Mexican food, should the sour cream be placed on top of the enchilada or in a separate container? It was determined that the sour cream should be isolated to prevent the crust of the enchilada from becoming soggy during transit.

13th June 2010 - Premie Poison

"His brand of getting people to follow him and become dependent on him is, I believe, spiritually dangerous." - Elaine B

The thread below really begins to expose the insidious effect that Rawat's domination had on many of us. Rawat's methods of indoctrination and conditioning impact every aspect of premie's lives. It goes way beyond just a "surface coating of spirituality" like many other systems of belief that still allow a sense of freedom and independence when it comes to basic decision making. Rawat's greedy talons dig deep into his victim's psyche and dramatically impact the outcome of their lives.

It was not that long ago that I was fully active in the cult and very closely held in Rawat's grip. Looking back at my perspective during those 34 years, it's now becoming clear how Rawat had shaped me into his obedient servant. I took seriously his commandment to "constantly meditate and remember holy name." That meant that every waking minute was spent in an effort to catch that immediate breath. Success was rewarded not only with a physiological feeling of pleasure, but also with a pat on the back. The physically satisfying nature of breath meditation was overlaid with a set of deeply ingrained principals that involved pleasing the Master. It was as if Rawat himself was watching and measuring my every effort to connect with each breath. Success really meant that when I did indeed catch that breath, I would earn the favor of the Master. This approval process was enriched, embellished, and provided with the utmost significance by the belief that Rawat was God himself in human form. I wanted God to be pleased with me. I was willing to do the work.

Catching each breath, and thereby securing the approval of Rawat, assured my admission and acceptance into the ultimate Club. That would be none other than the Club of select individuals throughout all of history, who somehow managed to break free of the bondage of plain old human existence, and find true liberation. That would be the exclusive Club of great saints and spiritual giants who were the lucky ones. They had done a wonderful job of combining opportunity with effort and made it through the secret door. Now it was my chance and I might never, ever, have that chance again. Rawat himself had granted me that opportunity. All that remained was my effort. Grab that breath, please the Master, forsake all else, and achieve success. It had to be worth it. It was all made possible by the grace of my beloved Master, Prem Rawat.

Of course all of this attention to breathing and pleasing the Master was not so easy. There were numerous distractions; jobs, money, education, kids, parents, family, friends, health, culture, society, values, news, music, literature, ………, any responsibility whatsoever. In fact, we were purposefully taught that everything else in life was a distraction and could interfere with our success. No problem. Rawat by his mercy, had inserted some quick and easy ways to advance. It was kind of like that board game called "Shoots and Ladders". The routine of the game involves throwing dice and moving your piece ahead accordingly. With luck your piece would land on a ladder which immediately accelerates you to a higher level on the board. Shoots are dangerous and cost you hard earned progress. In Rawat's world, breath meditation was like the standard rolling of the dice. Programs, Service, Darshan, Knowledge Reviews, Donations, etc. were ladders. They propelled progress and were relatively easy. Just show up, or best of all, just give money. When all else failed, giving money would provide the promise of success. Displeasing Rawat was a treacherous shoot to be avoided at all costs. It would not just cost you the game, it could blow your one chance in all eternity of joining that Club.

As Elaine B expressed so well, Rawat's dogma and the resulting way his followers think and behave, can be spiritually dangerous. It can also have devastating effects on the outcome of all aspects of his victim's lives. Each of our lives is fragile and influenced by a myriad of complex variables. Decisions matter. Choices have consequences. Our lives and the lives of those around us, are shaped by the outcomes that result from decisions and choices that are made by ourselves and others. Some we can control and influence and some we cannot. The foundations and reference points upon which we build our decision making processes are critically important and influence the choices we make and the direction of our lives. These foundations come from values, family, society, religion, friends, and just the process of growing up.

Rawat inserted himself in my life at a time when I was most vulnerable. My foundation of beliefs and values was still being formed. I was at a rebellious age and the world itself was going through a dramatic societal adjustment. He basically offered a way out of all that difficult decision making stuff. It was a simple trade. He was saying, "give me your problems, tough choices, decisions, and don't worry about family, finances, health, values, society, or anything at all really. Get high on your breath and be obedient to me. Give me your money because I know best what to do with it. It will all be just fine. And by the way, if you really, really surrender to me, I'll get you a pass through that secret door. You might just be one of the special select few who get to go to the head of the line."

All this was of course too good to be true, but I fell for it completely. It was pretty enticing and appeared to be a no lose offer. I could give up everything I didn't want to deal with anyway and still be richly rewarded. Now, in hind sight I can see how many of the decisions I made, or really avoided and didn't make, have had disastrous consequences in my own life. None of Rawat's promises have ever come true and many of the choices I made have cost me dearly. In addition at an age when many people are relatively mature and comfortable with their processes and values, I'm just now figuring it out.

Of course, if I had stayed with Rawat, there would not be any regrets or self reflection. No ice cold realization that I had been held hostage for the better part of my life. That my decision making capabilities had never matured, and that going forward I would have to relearn and rebuild an entire foundation of principals and beliefs. No need to self monitor or be accountable to anyone or for anything. I could have continued to drink the poison and be oblivious to my own humanity like the 34 years before. I could ignore the cold hard facts about Rawat and his life of lies and deceit even though I witnessed it all first hand.

I guess it takes a little courage to break free and the encouragement of others who already have. My hope is that some of this reaches through to premies who are on the fence or even thinking about breaking out of Rawat's sticky web. Also, we need to keep beating the drum loudly here, to help anyone who needs a hand. If I made it out, others can too.

15th June 2010 - Perfect Front Man

"he did have a quiet, rock solid authority about him which gave him that air of timelessness. As the major player in introducing the Rawat religion to the west, he's a much more interesting character than his boss."

I was totally captivated by Charanand (and all those bald headed, orange robed Mahatmas). Looking back, Charanand was extremely significant as a part of Rawat's scam. To me he was physical living proof that Knowledge worked. I believed he was a fully enlightened soul. As time went on and I got to know him personally, I understood Charanand more to be just a kind old man who had found himself sucked into the cult with no way out. He had become totally dependent on Rawat for everything including food, housing, medical care, any income whatsoever, you name it.

During the hay day of rapid growth in the 70's, Charanand provided the perfect front man for Rawat. He was like Ed McMann to Johnny Carson or any other similar successful theatrical duo. Many celebrities or performers depend on someone else to embellish their brand. Charanand did the same for Rawat. Besides perfect timing in the market place, a nice seductive sales pitch, and all the right props to enrich his message, Rawat had Charanand as a living endorsement. Got to give Rawat some credit for putting all those pieces together and successfully ripping off tens of thousands of innocent victims. He's a masterful con artist.

15th June 2010 - Thanks Lakeshore

"my life became an effort to maintain a façade of normalcy when really I was totally dependent on Rawat for everything."

Good to hear from you and thanks for the thumbs up. Guess I'm still purging some of this stuff and the forum is a great way to do that. Also, there is a lot of hope that some other premies may be touched by the right words. We never know which words those may be, so when I can, I'll keep posting as my thoughts come together. Your words above really nail it; "a facade of normalcy." It just takes a little honesty and courage to face up to the fact that we were ripped off and then blast our way out. Thanks again Lakeshore!

15th June 2010 - Meant to add this previous post;

Red Ocean

16th June 2010 - "Con Artist" meets impaired resistance

Defraud, swindle, cheat (vb/n); the act of deceiving,: fraud, deception; one that cheats; a dishonest person.

Lie, deceit, trickery, (n); an untrue statement made with intent to deceive.

Delude, mislead, deceive (vb); to cause to believe an untruth.

Impostor (n); one that assumes an identity or title not one's own in order to deceive.

Seduce (vb); to persuade, to lead astray, to entice, lure, hoodwink, to acquire by ingenuity or flattery.

Opportunistic (adj); exploiting opportunities with little regard to principle or consequences. (note: This one is particularly revealing; "feeding on whatever food is available, by an organism that can become pathogenic when the host's resistance is impaired"!!!)

Rawat is a predator who takes from innocent victims. Rawat knows what he is doing, knows its morally wrong, and continues to do it anyway. He does it selfishly for money, power, and control. He has gotten away with it and been successful at it for decades, by taking advantage of opportunity and others of impaired resistance.

17th June 2010 - Re: "Con Artist" meets impaired resistance

Maybe you have some ideas about when he went from ugly selfish brat to full blown scumbag.

Maybe around the time when mommy couldn't stand him any more and went back home in a big nasty huff.

18th June 2010 - Who needs money anyway?

Gee, now that I'm rich in breath, thanks to Rawat, I might as well give him all my money…… He'll know what to do with it and I can be really happy just going around breathing for free! Thank you Rawat!!! You really are God! (even though I'm not supposed to tell anybody; big secret as all us true believers know)

20th June 2010 - Kind of like a drug addiction.

"It's always hanging by a thread and so are the premies. All they have is this blissful feeling that they sometimes get when going to programs etc, and from this "experience" they run their lives. if you're feeling it (which means only the pleasant blissful aspect) things are going good."

Nice post Jool! Pretty well sums it up.

21st June 2010 - Getting Blissed Out Here.

Thinking about having been set free from the cult. Thanks for this wonderful insight.

23rd June 2010 - Figured out my vulnerability

Wow. Watching that I started to drift off into that same old spell of Rawat zoned out conditioning. Made me think I must be particularly sensitive to hypnosis! Seems like I've heard that some folks are more sensitive to it than others. Yea, maybe that's what got me for all those years…….

23rd June 2010 - hypnotizzzzzzed again…..!

They all have the same kind of rhythmic way of talking, long drawn out eye closing, hand and finger motions and gestures, while basically saying "listen to me I have the answer to all of your problems". (Of course Rawat has expanded his message into having the answer to all of the problems for the entire population of the world, being the ultimate megalomaniac that he is.)

23rd June 2010 - Made me Cringe

Every time Daya would get up to sing at a program I would double my heavy breathing efforts to avoid freaking out. Could not stand it. But of course my conclusion was that I was in my mind and should forcefully attempt to self correct and instead appreciate the gracious gift of his own daughter's singing. Yuk. There really is something wrong with the idea of Rawat stuffing his daughter's singing down our helpless ear canals. The slinky dresses made it worse.

26th June 2010 - Cliff Notes version.

"On the contrary, each master has been a unique expression and has developed his own methods of promoting the message which have little continuity with the previous master. Instead, the authority is based in the charisma of the living master, his success in promoting the message, and the personal experience of the student"

This little comment was buried in there among all the scholarly crap he was spouting off about. It basically says, "yea, all those other Masters in the past were each a little different and so is Rawat. No big deal. And by the way, Rawat has changed a few things this time around, just like they all did. So don't worry about it if Rawat's message seems to be different. In fact, we won't worry much about the real content of the message he's out there spreading around or even his behavior. Let's just say that he still has some followers and that makes him a guru just like all those other great spiritually developed souls. Let's just leave it at that. See, Rawat really is a success after all! And I just proved it! See how smart I am? See how I can write in a way that makes me seem smarter than you? Bet you can't even understand all my complicated analysis and reasoning. I'm soooooooo smart, and you are all so stupid! My name is RON GEAVES! The world will now remember me and all my great work! Na na na nana……"

(Its all just gratuitous justification and excuses for Rawat.)

4th July 2010 - Pass the basket….

"Only sixteen hundred people at the recent "open to everyone" event in Miami after all these years points to a lot of feet walking out the door."

Let's see… even if the average take was $100 per head, that's $160,000. Assuming expenses for renting the hall, set up, a/v, etc. were about $60,000, that leaves $100,000; barely pays for a couple of weeks of Jet fuel. My guess is its the money (lack of) that will ultimately take Rawat down.

4th July 2010 - You are not really Human

"If you want to be a real human being, first of all you have to become a servant. And how can you become a servant? By service…. Look at yourself as a servant doing service to Guru Maharaj Ji…. Because it is to Guru Maharaj Ji. You are doing this for me."

So, let me see. if I'm not perfectly engaged in obedient service to Rawat then I'm not even Human. Which means I lack all the qualities which would otherwise make me human. If I'm not human than I lack all the qualities which make me Humane; i.e.; compassion, sympathy, consideration for others, an understanding of right and wrong, a conscience….. That would make me some kind of an animal I guess or else I'd be the opposite of all those qualities, which would make me pure….. EVIL.

Gee, after a closer look at all this, maybe its Rawat himself who is really lacking all those Humane qualities. Maybe he's the one who seems to be missing a conscience. And that would make him the one who can't tell right from wrong. And that would mean he is really the one who is not quite Human. And that would mean he is really more like some kind of an animal or else that would make him be the one who is pure….. (na; can't say it like that, I might burn in hell)

5th July 2010 - "whistling at the wind."

Makes me think back to the Millennium days. I was a senior in college and very busy propagating for the Lord. One night I got a hold of a microphone at the cafeteria and right in front of the entire campus, made a desperate pronouncement that everyone had better get on a bus to Houston before it was too late. After that I was labeled as the campus lunatic and quietly disregarded as a real freak. This was in the early 70's when in fact it was OK to be kind of a freak. I remember scraping up just enough money to buy a plane ticket and reserve a hotel room thinking that there really would be no need for money after the Astrodome melted into a pool of infinite light with me inside of it. On the same presumption I gave my pretty decent car to a group of friends I had recruited, so they could drive across the country and meet me there. That car was subsequently returned to me totally trashed. They had basically lived in the thing for a few weeks.

I was also one of the lucky chosen ones who got to sit on the tarmac for hours waiting for Rawat to land at the airport before the event. What a miserable experience. I do believe as we all sat there singing the "lord of the universe has come to us this day" there might have been a few choruses of that poem/tune Ocker was mentioning. If only I had seen the stupidity in all of that and gotten out then! It could have spared me about 34 years of I don't know what or how to really describe it, crap. I'm thinking I need to write my Journey to get all that out of my head. Thanks for listening.

5th July 2010 - Re: Just when you think you've heard everything

"he may be on the brink of cutting the cord, financially at least, via a much smaller cadre of much wealthier "students." If there was a Major Donor Program, why not a "Super Donor Program" that no one would ever hear about?"

Seems like its been like that for quite some time. When I was in the major donor group there was an even higher level of exclusivity that was kind of like a secret club. My impression was that there were about 30 premies with a lot of money who were constantly being coddled and then squeezed for money whenever the "opportunity" presented itself. Mankoff and Yurim worked these premies over almost as a full time job. There were lot's of back room meetings, dinners, and even a separate campsite at Amaroo close to Rawat's quarters where this group was provided with special accommodations. (i.e.: air conditioning, beds, catered food, etc.) Seems like Rawat and his henchmen could milk these folks for more money practically at will. The problem for Rawat is that it seems implausible that he could add more members to this group, based on his negative public exposure. As time moves on, the group will dwindle due to attrition for all kinds of reasons. Guess he could always land a big lottery type inheritance from a single unsuspecting source, if he hasn't done so already. Of course the other way he could go down would be with a nasty, Tiger Woods like divorce.

10th July 2010 - The picture got to me

Seeing Rawat behind stage being pampered by self-flagelated premies, really gave me a wretched feeling in my stomach. It so clearly illustrates how Rawat controls otherwise decent, well intentioned, yet vulnerable individuals, into debasing themselves by worshipping the spoon fed idea that he is God. When the "God identity" is removed, and the behavior of his followers is examined, it really is almost criminal and at least morally indecent, that any individual demands that kind of special attention.

This looks like a "departure". Note the immaculately clean mercedes, blue pedestrian protection tunnel (in doors) for his protective isolation, camera rolling to document this historic moment, no less than 3 premies standing by in readiness mode, premie holding car door, wall of curtains to isolate arrival area, etc. A lot of this was/is done under the guise of security. In reality there never has been any seriously organized security or professional security training. That was all a scam and an excuse to add drama and provide a reason for all that ceremonial formal procedural crap. Its all just another way to feed Rawat's self importance and mega-egotism and make him appear to be special and above the fray. Behind all the smoke and mirrors he really is just a plain vanilla scam artist who routinely changes his identities and disguises.

The fortunate ones who get to do back stage service, all still believe he is God, but are trained to not tell that to anyone. Instead he is addressed as Captain or Mr. Rawat, to reinforce his cover as a humanitarian inspirational messenger of peace. The hypocrisy of all this is disgusting, when fully understood. Its still hard to believe these same rituals involving the delicate transport of the precious cult leader, still remain unchanged 30 years later.

"Jasper"

12th July 2010 - Re: I remember that program…

"Maharaji being really pissed off and demanding 'Who is the Hall Liaison for this event, why has he screwed this up for me?' and being cast into the outer darkness as a premie who wasn't surrendered or devoted enough and couldn't do his service."

Nice concise snapshot of how Rawat constantly utilizes "Guilt" to manipulate premies to comply to his ridiculous demands. Reading this brought back the dark shadowy feeling that always smeared the edges of any so called blissful experience while doing direct service to the lord. Fear seemed to hang in the air around him. Great to be free from that and the rest of the cult's drippings.

21st July 2010 - Re: "Every donation… goes where it is most needed."

"All of this is blatantly controlling and disempowering cult hogwash, especially when Rawat apparently refuses to put his own money where his mouth is."

Thanks Lakeshore. Truth is that Rawat really doesn't have any of what I would call his own money; its all been fraudulently extorted from indoctrinated, unsuspecting, well intentioned, but totally conned premies. if he hadn't gone around convincing vulnerable, innocent, decent people that he was God, he wouldn't have any of that money. Once any of us really understood that Rawat is a pitiful fake, we never again gave him or his flim flam organizations a single dime. Personally, one of my biggest regrets is that I actually did give him and his cult real hard earned money. I wish I could get it all back with interest. As far as I'm concerned my donations were a complete waste and it makes me sick that any of it was applied towards his lush, extravagant, self indulgent lifestyle. I also don't appreciate that any of my money was used to support his family, spoil his kids rotten, and pamper his wife and mistress simultaneously. I'm glad these donations are dwindling and hope the day comes soon that he doesn't have enough money to pay the taxes on his mansions and cars or the utility bills. Just had to get that off my chest.

24th July 2010 - "So I go to them…"

"As long as I get picked up and chauffeured around in no less than a new S550; black or silver preferred." To Rawat, BMW and Audi luxury sedans were just a poor man's Mercedes. He hated to have to condescend and accept a ride in one of those. He'd never permit himself to ride in a Jaguar, Cadillac, or Lincoln Town Car, so don't bother him with having to refuse attending a program if one of those was the best car premies could dig up. What an arrogant ……….. (fill in explicative of choice).

24th July 2010 - Setting the "record" straight

Actually Rawat's last known speakers, as recently as a couple of years ago, are shown on page 2 of the most expensive speaker list at #9 down the page; a mere $189,000 for the Avantgarde Trios. The $90,000 mentioned in this thread, was just for his DCS Scarlatti CD player, which probably is the most expensive CD player, or at least rated as the best. (google DCS Scarlatti and it comes right up) Not sure why the Trios were chosen by Rawat but I'm sure he wasn't even considering the price. They may have been a more compatible fit for the custom built stereo room at his mansion. Who knows how much the room alone cost, but my guess is that was easily a couple of hundred grand; floating floor, wall treatments, damping systems, pure copper and silver wiring, etc. Acoustics and room interactions are often more important in speaker selection than just price. Also, I know Raja Ji was really excited about the Avantgarde Trios. He might have put a bug in Rawat's ear, hoping to get them as hand-me-downs in a couple of years when the boss became bored or wanted to trade up.

I'd also bet that Rawat rarely if ever actually listens to real music on that system. It just sits there as a token to represent his power, wealth, and position of importance. He might show it off to somebody he wanted to impress, but since he's scared of people, I can't figure out who that would be. Now he can't even show it to premies because if they jump ship, they might talk about it on this forum. (like, well?, gee…., that would be somebody like, uh, me….) Anyhow, I would have been way more than happy with a relatively cheap pair of YG's, Magicos, or the Kharmas which might actually fit in my meager abode. Sad part is I probably could have bought a couple of pair of those "cheap speakers" on page 4 of this list, for the money I wasted giving it to the lying bastard. Instead I'm quite happy listening to a used pair of Quads which sound fantastic. All you Brits should be quite proud of Peter Walker for inventing those back in 1957.

24th July 2010 - Re: Re: Setting the "record" straight

Thanks Lakeshore. Appreciate your kind and understanding support. Funny thing, but I've been generally pissed off at anybody who even remotely attempts to take advantage of me lately. Must confess, I've let a few unsuspecting folks really have it, with probably a little more passion than they deserved. But it feels good to finally release some of that repressed steam that has built up inside of me for those 34 years of subjugation. Of course as a premie, getting angry just was not allowed. We were trained and conditioned by Rawat to just expect and take abuse. And then blame ourselves and stew in the chilling waters of guilt, with the hope that we would find a compassionate reprieve through the hard earned grace only bestowed by Rawat himself. (Who ironically was the source of the guilt that we hoped HE would release us from.) Mother f___er. It does feel really good to mercilessly expose Rawat as the lier and thief that he really is.

30th July 2010 - Re: -) Three Years!!!

Come to think about it, the Keys might have been the last straw for me. (Besides seeing him stone drunk, babbling senselessly, in the back seat of my car.) I remember Rawat passionately proclaiming at programs, that upon completion and release of his greatest work, the keys, the world would finally understand and come running to him and his secret knowledge. His great plan would then all fall neatly into place and the long awaited promise of peace on earth would be fulfilled. Then I remember suffering through a forced session at a program where the entire first key was shown to us with an anticipated wow reaction. Maybe I had just seen enough by then, but I distinctly remember thinking it was all just a bunch of regurgitated same old crap. And of course I couldn't bear the idea of actually going through all the keys as Lakeshore related so well. Not that I'd ever been lazy or slack in my practice; it just seemed stupid and I could not subject myself to that kind of extreme exercise in boredom. Even now to hear Rawat talk about peace on his latest incarnated website; its completely laughable. Having spent hundreds of hours alone with him personally, he's not at peace at all. Instead Rawat is full of anger and resentment which he attempts to drown out with heavy doses of alcohol on a daily basis.

31st July 2010 - Rawat's speech notes- 23rd March, 1982

* Premies lucky I'm here. Lucky found ME.
* Knowledge is like, uh, water is wet=grace=life+Guru (me)=GOD…. I allowed you to be born! You are VERY lucky because of ME……..
* Food=Knowledge; giver of food/health/CAKE JOKE;…(pause, slow, dramatic);…. I AM CAKE! Sooo EAT!
* Get them CONFUSED. Then clarify Confusion=BAD; but, I am GOOD. Guru/Good both start with "G". (Ha)
* Physical Form; me here now; need $$$.
* Coffee is like K so practice or will piss on self; diuretic…
* Finale- Usual Love Crap/need me/ plug for where am I; Australia? Worthy if give $$$
* (note to self; Monica waiting; package from France-No dancing; get her done.)

Prem Rawat (Maharaji ), Melbourne, Australia, 23rd March 1982

1st August 2010 - That precious experience…

Wow! Can't believe I could actually drive a car with HIM sitting next to me. Must have been the real power of grace that took over my entire body and mind during those times. I mean to actually find the foot pedals, or hold that steering wheel, to watch those gauges, see those stop lights, hear that sublime clicking of the turn signal. And then to have that opportunity to be with HIM and to feel that joy and meditate; yes, feel that breath, hear that beautiful music, and see that beautiful white light while driving HIM. Sometimes through that sublime experience, HE would talk to me. I mean, in words; real words. And the kindness, the love, the compassion, were just too much. But I could not cry with the bliss of that moment, or even look over to see HIS beauty radiating before me; as this was my dutiful service. I had waited for lifetimes and milleniums for that moment, and above all others, had been chosen to carry and protect this precious cargo: the Lord Himself in physical form. (Ahhhh shit! Fucking pothole! God help me!!! I'm doomed. Hold on; that was just a test. HE put that there to see if you are worthy. You must have slipped up, missed that last breath, said the wrong word, looked the wrong way, took it all for granted; Don't lose it now…. Control. regain Control. He's not happy. He's not happy with me. I"ll probably never have this chance again. Just surrender….. I am nothing. He is everything. OK here we are. Thank God. Watch that curb!!! Ah shit; ok he's gone. Gee; that was fantastic!!)

4th August 2010 - Re: Going to a program on the tour…

Well lakeshore; you beat me to it but said exactly what I wanted to, except better. All I could come up with as a response to Elaine's post is "What are you thinking?" Why sip or even smell the Cool Aid when you already know it is poison? Let alone; possibly drink any of it! And take someone else and expose them to that crap? All clothed with the rationale of observational purposes? Rawat is a dangerous predator best avoided; like a venomous serpent. Its not fear that presents the suggestion of caution, but the real experience of having been bitten and almost destroyed. Besides Elaine, YOUR head will be added to the count, and considered "support" for him and his lecherous cult. Best of luck and I respect your personal choices, but am at a total loss trying to understand your true motivation.

11th August 2010 - Passing out

I always wanted to pass out and thought there might be something wrong with me because I didn't. Lack of devotion, not enough effort, falling asleep in meditation, more prayer needed, drifting off in satang, etc.

30th August 2010 - Re: Rawat Has a Problem

Rawat literally feeds off of the adoration of his subjects and the psychological and emotional control he exerts over them. He craves this narcissistic supply in regular doses just like an addict needs a fix. I'm sure he fondly remembers the good old days when large halls were full of arm waving, screaming, chanting masses of pliable human fodder. Rawat feels an irresistible sense of power, stimulation, and exuberant energy from acquiring new, fresh, and untarnished raw material. The thrill he feels from his conquests is simply incomprehensible to most of us.

He also enjoys the groveling, back stabbing, ladder climbing premies who struggle to find their way to get close to him. He carefully selects a few special ones and allow them to slowly enter the inner circle where he can manipulate and play deceptively with them, and then observe their reactions. Its entertaining and exhilarating to watch them stumble around like idiots who will tolerate inconceivable levels of abuse. But he has to trust that they are of the type who will not tell on him; there are nasty secrets that must be kept in private.

Only problem is its not quite the same any more. He just can't seem to draw the crowds like before and those young ones have just grown up way too fast. All that information bouncing around out there makes it tough to get the messaging just right. And who can be trusted to come in close and play? One never knows these days. Can't trust a soul. They might turn out like the others who have left and spread nasty, slanderous lies all over the place. Kind of like that unappreciative traitor who calls himself Jasper. Used to trust him; now look at all the trouble he has caused……..

5th September 2010 - Re: And kick the habit…

Loaned him my car once for a weekend and it was returned with the ashtrays full of butts attached to some kind of plastic cigarette holder mouthpieces. Of course I instantly forgave him for smelling up the car, which had never been smoked in before. Then I quickly and gleefully collected the mouth pieces. At the time these seemed like little treasures that had been left behind for me as a symbol of the Lord's love and appreciation. I felt so special and rewarded for providing this important personal service. (puke) Of course the reality was that Rawat didn't give a shit about me or my car; he just wanted to smoke. And those mouthpieces were probably sterilized so that his holy lips wouldn't have to touch a man made cigarette. Someone else may have had their dirty, grubby hands on those cigarettes before they touched his Lordship's precious lips.

6th September 2010 - Re: And kick the habit…

Mercedes; and he didn't have one of his own in the area where he needed it.. So I drove several hours to drop it off, clean it immaculately, then hand him the keys feeling like one of the most fortunate humans on the planet. I remember driving it home thinking, wow, I'm sitting where he sat! My hands are holding the wheel where his hands were. I'm breathing the same smoky air he exhaled! What a bunch of crap…….. Jeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz. Sometimes I just want to slap myself for being such an idiot.

7th September 2010 - Learning to Fly

I've been repeatedly exposed to many different teams of premies who are very close to Rawat on a personal level. This includes the residence staff, top level security personnel, major donors, instructors, Rawat's travel coordinators, the TPRF board, Elan Vital executives, and "the Family". My analysis is that they all believe he is God and he has come here on a mission. Every flaw exhibited by Rawat is rationalized as a test or excused by the fact that since he really is God, the same codes of expected behavior just don't apply. Most of the inner circle are dazzled by the thought that they are favored by Rawat, and have a special part to play in the divine plan for the world. That doesn't stop all the in-fighting and positioning that goes on, but its the glue that keeps them in their places. They are in the boat and right next to the captain where they feel safe and secure.

There is absolute denial that life could exist outside the delusional reality that's been created. To leave or doubt for even a minute is believed to result in eternal damnation. Those who have left are seen as victims of suicide. Many use the heavy breathing technique to combat any critical thoughts that surface and stay in a semi-intoxicated state of delirium. Others just drink a lot, or beat down their nasty minds through a healthy dose of satsang or service. As long as they stay close to Rawat and avoid doubting or criticizing him, almost any abhorrent behavior is tolerated. There is an under current that if they just hang on no matter what, it will all work out according to plan. And in the end, eternal enlightenment will be the reward.

I believe its doubtful that very many on the inside who are left, will find their way out. The sense of betrayal I felt from leaving was almost unbearable. During several eureka type moments where the veil was gradually lifted, I felt absolutely terrified and physically ill. My conditioning went so deep that I really hadn't developed any methods for processing or interacting outside of the cult. It was like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. Fortunately, I somehow realized that I actually had a pair of wings and just kind of naturally learned how to fly. It helped to look around and see you guys flapping a bit so I could get the idea. Thanks and I appreciate the support and encouragement we've all found here.

9th September 2010 - Premie Pain

"a lot pain is taken in order for premies to hide their belief in Rawat's divinity."

As I'm thinking more about this and the excellent analysis above exposing Rawat's contradictory messaging, there really is a lot of hidden pain surrounding Rawat's inner circle. Sometimes I'd spend a week at the Malibu residence staying in the guest house. A lot of premies would come and go. Occasionally Rawat would step outside and engage in a one sided conversation to demonstrate his vast knowledge about almost anything. Looking back, its clear that he was just toying with people to make them feel inadequate compared to his superior level of intelligence. Premies would stand around him nearly dumbfounded, frozen by the fear that they would say something inappropriate or displeasing to him. If a brave premie gathered enough courage, they would ask him a question about his travels, hobbies, or opinions. Rawat would typically divert to some profound comment about the pitiful nature of the human condition. Invariably he would imply that against the odds, he alone had overcome all frailties and had earned the privilege to pass judgement on everyone and everything in existence. There would routinely follow a lot of affirmative head nodding and disingenuous cackling-like laughter.

Beneath it all was an undercurrent of apprehension and fear. It was tangible. I'd bet a sensitive animal would be able to smell it and a true predator would instinctively prepare for the kill. Rawat seemed to relish those brief interactions but would abruptly turn and move on to other more interesting affairs. It was as if he just wanted to have a taste of those he had hunted down. Never would I say were there moments of real or natural interaction. Any resemblance to peace, happiness, or joy was artificial and contrived. And yet those premies all felt so special. Any premie who was actually addressed by Rawat was met afterwords with a mixture of adoration and contempt by the rest of the group. That premie had been singled out and paid special attention, which mysteriously and cosmically lifted them higher in the relative pecking order within the pool of favored devotees.

Between appearances by Rawat, premies would diligently and obsessively perform their specific duties or service. Mistakes were not tolerated, and God forbid, if someone would damage any object of importance to Rawat. Dirt was not permitted and everything was continuously cleaned. People spoke in hushed tones to prevent any possible disruption or disturbance when Rawat was home. It felt different when he wasn't around. There was a relief and an understanding that people could relax their guard a bit and be more like themselves. But still there remained a "sameness" or pallor that seemed to infect those close to Rawat. Unfortunately, the conditioning had penetrated so deeply, we had been forced to forget who each of us really was. And over time, we had each learned to become numb to the pain.

13th September 2010 - Carnival Barker

"Maharaji was the perfect master, the savior who had finally come again to reveal the true Knowledge and bring peace to earth, and Knowledge was the secret, mysterious, missing ingredient that was left out of the scriptures, the "laying on of the hands," the actual revealing of the "Kingdom of Heaven" within – the Divine Light, the unwritten, unspeakable Holy Name/Word of God, the primordial (original) vibration, the celestial harmony" or "music of the spheres," and somehow, "manna from Heaven." It all made perfect, crystal clear sense and it caused all the pieces of the puzzle to fall into place." Lakeshore

"But Rawat lies all the time. He lies about his past, he lies about having claimed to be God, he lies about who was responsible for all the "concepts" of the 70s and 80s, he lies to new people at intro programs by not telling them about things like darshan and devotion, the fact that his followers worship him etc. and pretends he's some kind of new age self-help instructor, etc. In fact, he lies because he doesn't just reveal the techniques to people at an intro program because he easily could, instead of telling them they have to be "ready" first, which means duly programmed into a cult before he will "freely give" what he offers, lest he won't get the credit for it, along with the worship and the MONEY." Joe

These two posts from below really expose Rawat for the con artist he is. The question that keeps haunting me is how could I have fallen for his scam for so long? Its usually followed by the thought how could premies still be suckered by the same old ploy? I guess the only explanation I can come up with is that I was looking around and stumbled into the wrong side show. Then it took me a while to find the exit and get out of there. Guess stuff like that can happen among all those stars and grains of sand. The video below reminded me of my escape from the cult.

"Jasper"14th September 2010 - Re: Like master, like devotee…

Not sure why but reading Mitch's remarks (which were posted at "http://www.wopg.org/en/news/on-the-road/775-woodstock-new-york-2010-blog") made me remember a time when I was standing alone with Rawat at the Malibu residence having a little chat. He was dressed casually wearing a pair of open toed sandals with no socks. As I longingly glanced at those Holy Lotus Feet I briefly noticed he had a nasty case of fungus infecting several of his toe nails. Horrified by the sight, I quickly glanced away. For the duration of the encounter I was mercilessly shredded by my mind. A series of dark and evil thoughts consumed my attention. Desperately clutching at my breath, I attempted to maintain control while conversing with my lord and master. My mind kept jumping around between the idea that those feet should certainly be immune to such a basal pestilence, and wondering if he had that fungus during my last darshan line. The later idea was of course followed by concern about it being contagious and infecting my lips after kissing his feet. For weeks I drifted around wondering how the Holy Lotus Feet could possibly get a toe nail fungus. Finally I was able to stuff the thought deeply and tightly away in a self made mental compartment labeled "Lila". It was all just a test.

15th September 2010 - Re: Translation for Mitch

Welcome to the forum friends of Mitch!!! Here is where you will find the truth about Rawat and the cult. Hope you are checking out this site as part of due diligence before you sign your life and savings away to a pathological liar. (being nice with that understatement as concern for the potential sensitivity of newcomers) We would love to hear from you!!!

19th September 2010 - Servitude

Service: n 1: the occupation of a servant. 2: Help, benefit. 3: the act, fact, or means of serving.

Servitude: n: Slavery, Bondage

At least once a year for about 25 years, I would make a pilgrimage to the Malibu residence to do service. Of course to me, it was an opportunity to engage in a selfless effort to contribute in a very personal way. It was for the benefit of my Master and to help him with his important greater purpose of serving all of humanity. Direct service was the single highest application of the special abilities and talents that God had given me. No other activity could have possibly carried a higher significance. During those special visits, I was completely aligned with my natural purpose, and I intently fulfilled my tasks to the best of my ability.

I'd work hard doing extremely strenuous and difficult manual labor without hesitation and to the limits of my physical capability. All expenses were completely paid for out of my own pocket. I'd ship special tools and equipment thousands of miles to be adequately prepared for a perfectly successful outcome. Sometimes I would bring paid employees who were kept in the dark about who the owner of the property really was. Rawat was hidden behind the explanation that the "client" needed to remain anonymous for security purposes. Other premies who were there for similar but separate service projects would approach their specific jobs with the same conviction and abandon. It was about doing our small part to serve as true devotees should. Understood was the idea that humility would be gained along with an enriched and well earned measure of spiritual growth. There was no expectation that thanks would be offered or was even necessary. This was selfless service. It was equal to the deepest state of meditation where one could dissolve into the fabric of creation and become one with God himself. Direct service was beyond personal identity, but somehow Rawat would intuitively know the purity of my intentions and how diligent was my effort. He would know and only he could judge.

The last time I had plans to go back to the residence, was just a couple of years ago. As I tried to confirm the plans a few days before the trip, I had to back out due to an absolutely unavoidable conflict. It would be quite some time before I would be able to reschedule the trip. I did not want to let my Master down or miss the opportunity, and felt a good bit of anxiety over calling to cancel. I finally gathered up the courage and phoned my contact at the residence to offer an explanation and an apology. As my words graciously expressed sincere regrets, I remember expecting an understanding response and even support for the difficult situation that prevented me from going. Instead there was a long pause from the listener, as the impact of my message was absorbed. I could tell careful consideration was being given to what this really meant to Rawat and others at the residence. As the silence became almost deafening a response was finally offered; "so, if you can't come out here, that means we'll have to pay somebody to do the job. That's going to be awfully expensive and make it harder on the family! When you come and do the job, its free."

It took quite a while for the full impact to sink in. But as I thought about it, along with some other experiences I'd had with Rawat, the truth about what was spoken became hard to deny. It may have been a full year before I really let it be understood. It was easier to deny what I had heard than to acknowledge the brutal meaning of those words. But there it was, clear as a bell….. All those decades of service, which in my mind were a spiritual expression and the highest connection to my Master and to God, was nothing more than free work to Rawat. And if I couldn't do it, he'd have to pay someone else real money instead. The definition of servitude shown above only has two words listed in the dictionary; slavery and bondage. Perhaps these words more closely describe Rawat's idea of "service". To him, service is just another technique to manipulate his victims through deceit and lies to get what he wants. Rawat could care less about our spiritual growth. He just wants what he wants, and doesn't care what its costs anybody else. Premies are like slaves who are bound by his control and are only there to provide for him as he so desires. Serving Rawat is nothing more than slavery and bondage to him.

6th October 2010 - Re: After 44 years of spreading His Knowledge…..

Rawat's staged appearances like this are simply used to exploit vulnerable people to generate headlines and camera shots and reinforce his new brand. Its all just campaigning for political self promotion. Only 1 of the prisoners has received the techniques of knowledge after 5 years of steady indoctrination? Great results……. Rawat is a loser. Did they show him being delivered to the prison by his unpaid chauffeur who scrubbed every inch of his car for hours? Or the premies who prepared the drop off area by cleaning the floor on their hands and knees in anticipation of Rawat's arrival? Or his chair being vacuumed before he could rest his holy ass on it? Gee, why not describe the details about the rest of the "event"?

6th October 2010 - Rawat is not the victim here…..paleaseeeee.

If he goes to a prison, it's a "staged appearance to exploit the vulnerable". If he didn't, he's "ludicrously paranoid about other people's germs". If "one of the prisoners received the techniques of knowledge after 5 years", it's a failure.

It IS a staged appearance to manipulate the vulnerable. The real Rawat is hidden back stage orchestrating his devotees into providing whatever he desires. If you peel back the curtain (that I spent over 20 years behind) you will see a different Rawat than the one sitting in the throne-like chair. He's a paranoid tyrant who controls his victims to prop him up so he can attempt to even function in the real world. He cannot open a door for himself. He is terrified of germs. His bathroom habits are carefully scheduled so he does not have to use public rest rooms. He barks out orders, scares and intimidates people into compliance, and is just a mean and nasty kind of scum bag. Having a single inmate receive knowledge is a failure by Rawat's own standards! Isn't HE the one who claimed he would spread knowledge to the entire world? Rawat needs to pick up the pace pretty quickly to get that done before he drinks himself to death. I'm just stating the facts here App and not trying to distort or twist the truth as Rawat so tactfully attempts to do. Thanks for your stimulating contributions to the forum.

6th October 2010 - Absolutely Fantastic!!!

Can't wait to read it and I want to sincerely thank you for everything you are doing to help bring true clarity and understanding into the light!

6th October 2010 18:15:22 - A vicious cycle

"Devotion to such a despot is a vicious cycle that results in the death of a devotee's freedom and independent spirit."

Well put Lakeshore. Interesting that you call it a "vicious cycle that results in"……… Thinking about this, the cycle begins initially with that one terribly ill conceived submissive moment, where a devotee agrees to listen to Rawat and follow him. It used to be called surrendering the reigns of your life to the master but is now seductively disguised as having love for the teacher. The cycle then begins and progressively erodes the devotee's freedom and independent spirit. The intended result is total servitude. Its the same cycle today as it has been all along. Rawat feeds on souls through that predatory process, then slobbering in his greed, takes their money.

I clearly remember the moment when I transfered and offered my will, to the direction and control of Rawat. It was a distinct internal acceptance and surrender to him, to please him personally and to open myself to what I thought was spiritual growth. There may be some positive outcomes for a person if they align their will with their own natural instincts. Some others may find great benefit from creating an internal connection with a higher power, whatever that may be to them. But to hand over one's will to an absolute lying hypocrite like Rawat is more like suicide. It locks a person into a vicious cycle where life itself is slowly squeezed from them and ingested by Rawat, the ravenous scavenger of souls.

8th October 2010 - The promise.

"one terribly ill conceived submissive moment."

When I was first introduced to Rawat and Knowledge, my instincts were to run like hell. It all started as a process in 1972. I saw a poster at college with a picture of Rawat staring mystically straight ahead with a Buddha-like smile. Just below was the boldly lettered phrase "God Is Energy". My curiosity was peaked so I went to the program. There was an alter with a picture of Rawat sitting on a chair in the front of the room. As premies entered they all unabashedly walked down the center aisle and bowed down on the floor in front of the picture. Some would then get up like zombies with a fake look of self satisfaction smeared on their faces. I was horrified and wanted to puke. Then a Mahatma floated in, his robes draped to the floor, and spoke for an hour in a thick Indian accent. I could not understand a single word. At the end of the program, I was swarmed by premies, who like used car salesmen, tried to persuade my 20 year old mind to come back the next day to get Knowledge. I did not return to another program for almost a year.

That's when I found myself facing a personal crisis concerning a difficult decision and became vulnerable while looking for a solution. I again encountered a premie who seduced me into going to another program. That time, the message about actually receiving Knowledge was more clearly presented and it gave me an option. I remember thinking after that program that I had better get Knowledge while I could. It would give me specific techniques for meditation and a Master for guidance. It also could provide an excuse to defer the decision I was wrestling with, while I redirected my efforts towards the task of quickly gaining enlightenment. All of this actually began to make some sense to me at the time.

I went to a few more satsang programs and it became obvious that things were heating up. Rawat himself was coming to do some programs in the region. There was more and more talk about Rawat as the giver of Knowledge, and the sales pitch now contained a more pronounced sense of urgency. Premies and Mahatmas intent on accelerating their recruiting efforts, added time sensitive pressure to their approach. The message became, "get Knowledge now before Rawat comes. It will speed up enlightenment." I went to a Knowledge selection and sat right in front of Mahatma Fakiranand and asked him for Knowledge. He said I was not ready and refused to give it to me. That just made me want it more. Feeling the pressure of time, combined with the idea of gaining easy enlightenment, while being denied Knowledge by a Mahatma, created a sense of desperation. Now I had to have it.

At that point I made up my mind I would do anything to get Knowledge. I asked for it two more times and was finally approved to receive Knowledge under one condition. The Mahatma asked me point blank if I would give my life to Rawat. I remember the intensity of that soul searching moment like it was yesterday. Knowing I had to say yes to get Knowledge and that I was also promising this to who I thought might just be God, I wanted to mean it. Somehow I dug deep inside myself and gathered up all of what could be called my most sincere moral integrity. It represented everything I had been taught about right and wrong, my conscience and values, my beliefs and conceptions about God, my natural instincts about spirituality, all combined with the importance of making a promise. I said YES and meant it.

Along with that promise I had handed over my will and my life to Rawat. From there the programming just became more merciless. Satsang every night, hours spent listening to tapes and watching videos, programs all over the world, meditation for hours at a time, service at every opportunity, driving Rawat whenever possible, pilgrimages to the Malibu residence to do service; all overlaid with the remembrance of that promise. It was a continuous and relentless effort to become Rawat's servant and deliver my will permanently and forever into his hands. Thirty four years later I woke up as if from a bad dream. Rawat had also made some promises to me in the process. While I had held up my end of the bargain, it became clear that he had not. The more closely I got to know him and saw his true intentions, I realized it was all just a scam. Somehow I have since found the strength to begin to take back my will and reclaim my life.

9th October 2010 - A Premie's Life

"a sociopath; a lying, hypocritical "scavenger of souls" who would take from them everything they have to give until there is nothing left to take; a dark, vacuous absence who is incapable of receiving, feeling and respecting any of what was given; an insatiable void who only respects what is yet to be acquired; a scam artist who makes his living by exploiting the most beautiful thoughts, feelings and emotions human beings are capable of: and then to watch them, coldly, incapable of empathy or feeling pain."

Lakeshore's thoughtful post below contained this incredible description and it really got me thinking about what it means for premies. Also thanks for everyone's support, continued encouragement, and relentless efforts to turn on the lights and shout out a loud wake up call to Rawat's victims.

Watching that Tom Petty video in Lakeshore's post took me back to a night when I had miraculously procured front row seats to a TP concert. Of course no one really sits during his concerts, so I found myself standing there leaning on the stage about 2 feet from Mike Campbell's screaming guitar. I think I actually got splashed with some of Petty's own sweat! It had all the makings of an absolutely perfect concert experience and a night to remember fondly for years.

The only problem was, I had Knowledge at the time and really had no idea how to let go a little and enjoy myself. Somehow I kept thinking that if I tried to focus on my breath, I'd be able to feel the music on a deeper level. But it was so loud and raucous inside the hall, with 20,000 screaming inebriated young folk, my attempt at a meditative experience was seriously compromised. Of course that triggered feelings of guilt because of my twenty something years at the time, of indoctrination by Rawat and the cult. It was as if a miniature Rawat was always sitting on my shoulder like Jiminy Cricket, barking in my ear and judging whatever I was doing. Every single thought, feeling, or action I had while still a premie, was filtered, analyzed, and reviewed. If it supported Rawat, knowledge, and the cult, it was rubber stamped as good and generated an internal affirmation and contorted sense of satisfaction. If it did not align with Rawat, knowledge, or the cult, an almost unconscious, internal corrective process was immediately triggered.

So, instead of having fun that night, or actually enjoying myself, feeling fulfilled, satisfied, or at peace AS PROMISED BY RAWAT, it became a night of internal struggle, torment, and pain. I ended up just kind of staring at the band, watching the crowd through a frosted lens of critical judgement, and wondering what it was all really for.

In reality I was withdrawing into a stupor of stewing irritation, resentment, and borderline depression. But of course, those feelings were glossed over, smothered deep inside, and reclassified simply as a little overly active "mind". It could all be easily corrected by an extra long and deep formal meditation session the next morning. If that didn't do it, I could add on a repeat viewing of that new Rawat video, or for sure the next satsang program would settle me down. Worst case, I'd hang on until the next event with Rawat himself. Hopefully I'd also be blessed with another opportunity to drive him personally, or maybe even be asked out to the Malibu residence for some serious direct service. It would all be OK.

What I learned from these experiments of dabbling in the world while I had Knowledge, was that it just wasn't worth it. Going to a Tom Petty concert or doing anything else that could be called fun by normal people, was too painful. The best strategy became to avoid events like that, and limit my activities only to those within the strict confines of Rawat's controlled and structured world. The cult programming had become perpetually self sustaining. Rawat held me firmly and mercilessly within his grip. I had become a toy in his sand box for him to play with. Worse yet, my own feverishly driven personal goal, was to become his favorite toy. My will and my life was squeezed and molded like silly putty into whatever shape Rawat felt would provide him the most enjoyment. This had become the residue of my life as a fully engaged premie. It had all turned out exactly as Rawat had planned.

14th October 2010 - Same delusion; different terms

"Or maybe, secretly, they don't think he was wrong at all, but that it simply had to be restated in more socially acceptable terms."

I just received in the mail, a large white envelope that contained a full color, 12 page brochure from The Prem Rawat Foundation. The brochure is mostly stuffed with propaganda deceptively disguised as the TPRF Annual Report for 2009. Several paragraphs refer to Rawat's illustrious 40 year/4 decade selfless career spent traveling the World to spread peace. Its sprinkled with a liberal dosing of pictures showing kids eating rice or people adjusting eye glasses. Spread across 2 pages is a wide angle photo of a huge crowd in India sitting cross legged on the ground at a program. Off to the left on the stage sits a tiny Rawat dressed in all white perched up on his throne-like chair. He is clearly the focus of attention for these tens of thousands of people as they sit looking up to him for guidance and inspiration. Above the picture is the quote, "a simple message". Scattered about the brochure are references to this message, which basically say Rawat reminds people about peace to great benefit. Fleshing all this out are testimonials where Rawat was presented with the keys to some remote city, spoke in front of a recognizable logo, or gave a keynote address.

It's all so contrived. The content attempts to present Rawat as someone who is making a significant contribution towards eliminating suffering for the masses of humanity. And as an aside, if everyone would just stop and listen to him, peace would finally envelop this lost, miserable, and empty World. The brochure implies that Rawat can literally hand out peace through his Message. If enough people get this peace, it will then spread naturally to engulf and absorb the whole World in its warm embrace. Therefore Rawat is potentially a catalyst and instrument for establishing World Peace. Human suffering will then be erradicated and all will be perfect at last, thanks to the great kindness, compassion, and understanding of the one and only, Mr. Prem Rawat. The purpose of TPRF is to facilitate this process and make all it happen.

Let's just imagine for a minute that Rawat and TPRF actually succeed. What would the World look like? I guess in Rawat's delusional mind, he would still be sitting up front, only it would be the whole World looking to him for guidance and inspiration. Rawat TV would be broadcasting his message 24/7 on every channel and in every language, as eager listeners absorbed his passionately expressed Words of Peace. People would be wearing Rawat glasses and eating Rawat whole grain rice. He would be presented the Keys to countries like Iran and North Korea, to the applause and approval of the Leaders of the rest of the World. The United Nations would be constantly recognizing his efforts at specially held sessions in Rawat's honor. Kids would be educated in Rawat designed schools, dressed in Rawat provided clothing, while diligently studying the revised history of Rawatism in Rawat edited textbooks.

In one distinctly memorable paragraph of the TPRF Brochure, inserted to drive this important idea and possibility home to the reader, it says; "Prem Rawat responded by asking the audience to think about what peace really means."

"There are 6.7 billion people on the face of this earth" he said. "What do these 6.7 billion people want? Definitions of peace? No. There is only one reality of peace that we all have in common and that has never changed---the desire for peace that resides in the heart of every human being." ("and I can show it to you just like all those other tens of thousands of people sitting there in that picture in my brochure listening to ME." )

Rawat's vision of himself as ruler of the World really hasn't changed at all. It's still him, large and in charge, sitting on his throne with 6.7 billion human beings (he has counted them) hanging on his every word. The only difference is that he has changed his costume and presentation. The God Thing didn't quite work out. It just became too complicated, a little unpopular, and kind of messy. As Lakeshore so succinctly expresses above, "it simply had to be restated in more socially acceptable terms." Instead, he's now widely known as simply the Humanitarian Ambassador of Peace, with the same delusional goal of his own domination of the entire population of the World. How could this struggling World possibly get along without Rawat and his profound message of great importance, leading us down the pristine path to eternal peace, dignity, and prosperity?

15th October 2010 - Mendacious?

Had to look it up, but great description of Rawat:

men-da-cious/ adj: given to or characterized by deception or falsehood or diversion from absolute truth. syn: dishonest.

17th October 2010 - DECA 707?

Does anybody know the exact disposition of that plane. It must have been sold to someone for a specific amount of money. Probably a lot of money. Who bought it, how much did they pay, and what happened to the money? If the timing seems right, that money could have been used to build the Malibu mansion. Just a thought but it supports the fact that everything Rawat has, was coerced from premies'; giving him money or sweat from their hard work…..

18th October 2010 - Major Donor Club

There is a very powerful sub culture within the cult of well heeled premies who jockey for position by giving massive sums of money to Rawat. There are at least a couple of hundred regulars, many who give upwards of $50,000 a year. A graduated scale was created that went from about the entry level of $6,000 to $10,000, then 20,000, $50,000, and the over $100,000 club. It was a badge of honor to rise through the ranks by rising upwards to the next threshold. Benefits including better seats at programs, special housing at Amaroo, parties at the Malibu residence with Rawat, invites to the residence, and on and on became available. Mostly though it became a matter of prestige within the subculture to give more money than the others. Somehow, everyone seemed to know where each individual landed on the donations scale.

18th October 2010 - Re: well healed premies

Jasper, It's us that's the well healed premies. The ones you mean are well heeled.

Perfectly stated and I appreciate your thoughtful correction!!! (feeling healed but slightly scarred)

18th October 2010 - Major Donor Club

Some over $500K

18th October 2010 - Re: Say what?

"It's also quite apparent that they aren't on the semi-secret regional calling list from which a regional member of the National Resource Team calls premies periodically, typically right after dinner time, to let them know what's going on and how they can help."

I was the coordinator for my City's National Resource Team for years and reported directly to David Mankoff. He would call me about once a week with some juicy tidbit of "inspiration" for me to share with everyone on my list. Then every Sunday afternoon (I decided this was better than dinner time) I would call the same approximately 30 premies to ask for money. The calls would start out with a friendly hi, how are you? Then I would quickly follow with the brief story about Rawat saying this, or noticing that, or going there, and always end with needing something that cost money. There was never enough money.

I hated doing it and knew these poor people were already stretched to the limit financially. But I believed it was my honorable duty, and diligently made those fundraising calls in the name of service to my lord and master. There were always "challenges" to meet some goal and targets which were carefully explained during monthly conference calls from Yurim and Mankoff. I hated these calls too. They would last at least an hour and would feature one of the duo drooling into a speaker phone with some crap or story about Rawat. It was all said in the slurry dribble-like style of satsang where it supposedly contained some profound meaning; blah, blah, blah. Every word was spoken just to entice premies into giving money to Rawat for his own greedy consumption. These calls were so boring I'd usually fall asleep then feel guilty later.

There were also training seminars attached to programs where the entire resource team would meet and talk about the best way to seduce premies into giving money. Of course there was always the possibility that Rawat might show up. Eventually I just could not take doing this service anymore. The premies became sick of hearing from me every Sunday and I was more or less branded as the money collector. I ended up resigning from this service to the great disapproval of Mankoff. My only reprieve was that I actually recruited a replacement and trained her to take over the miserable task. She actually did a great job of it and I was subsequently complemented on my selection.

20th October 2010 - Major Donor Club

"You can't convince me that people in this day and age would give that kind of money selflessly out of pure love and "gratitude." Many of them probably couldn't give a crap about world peace, or other people for that matter. No, they've been indoctrinated to believe that there's something big in it for themselves. That's not surprising, though, because that's essentially what Knowledge is, what Prem Rawat teaches, the ultimate form of selfishness and narcissism as if the only thing that matters is one's personal "experience;" a world view in which "compassion" is defined, by Prem Rawat no less," as being for oneself." - Lakeshore

This is extremely profound and should go to the top as a new post for thorough discussion. Thank you Lakeshore.

22nd October 2010 - Begging For Maharaji

There was regular monthly budget money which premies had pledged and were supposed to send to Elan Vital to cover "operating expenses". These were mostly explained as costs necessary to support Rawat's work and included the plane, Rawat's travel expenses, and the rest of the EVI budget. The calls were explained as simply a friendly reminder to send in regular pledge amounts at a minimum, and more money if at all possible. Then there was a constant stream of special projects to pay for Rawat's Malibu residence, a variety of upgrades, Amaroo expansions, new helicopters, several new planes, birthday presents, audio or video equipment, new cars, land expansions, or other grand necessities. It was always explained that the U.S. premies, and especially the major donor group, had the great fortune and honor of being asked to financially support Rawat's work for the rest of the world.

During one era, I was instructed to carefully explain that premies should send half of their monthly donations to Rawat personally, and the other half to the organization. This was to clear up any confusion about how premies should be distributing their donations. There was a capital campaign to purchase land that I particularly remember. Rawat wanted to purchase all the land surrounding the original Malibu house for security purposes and to obtain access for public utilities. His vision included constructing a family compound where he could build separate living quarters for all his kids including Wadi's horses. I was sent out with a prepared slide show and script to meet with small groups of premies to explain why Rawat needed a zillion dollars to buy all this property. It was graphically and boldly presented to a targeted group of donors to solicit funds specifically for land to expand Rawat's mansion.

I don't recall feeling particularly guilty about any of it because I thought I was doing special service to the lord. I tried to see it as a privilege. It was usually quite uncomfortable making those calls, and at times I absolutely hated doing it. But, as the good disciplined premie that I was, I would persevere and diligently plow my way through the list. Any thoughts of regret, remorse, or guilt were stuffed deep inside myself in that secret place where I had learned to hide all my feelings and emotions. The door to that secret place was then tightly sealed shut with a liberal dose of meditation and reinforced with active conditioning through satsang or more service.

22nd October 2010 - Re: Prem Rawat / Guru Maharaj Ji…

"The Lord All Powerful (God) can never die but (Rawat's father) GMJ did die."

It was always explained that Rawat's father simply "left his body"; kind of like he made up his mind to just leave and hand over the controls to the young and eager Prem Rawat. That's not how normal people die. That's more like how the Lord All Powerful would die.

23rd October 2010 - Re: Prem Rawat / Guru Maharaj Ji…

I always thought that if I meditated hard enough, I might actually die but not really be dead; kind of like that melting into the ocean idea with all of those spectacular benefits, minus the down side of really being dead. It can get a little confusing. Guess we'll find out when we die.

23rd October 2010 - Re: Begging for Maharaji

Yes he got the money for the land and now owns an entire hilltop so no one can build near his Malibu mansion. He also got enough land to run a water line up the hill from the pacific Coast Highway. The whole area surrounding the complex is protected from wildfire by a series of gigantic fire hose sprayers that can water down all the underbrush to keep it from burning. Also, the whole property is irrigated to grow trees and exotic plants in the otherwise desert-like climate. All the neighbors have tank trucks drive up the hill to bring them drinking water to fill their cisterns, but Rawat has all he could want because of that land purchase.

30th October 2010 - Ashamed of the master

"We can all be forgiven for trying to hide what we had every right to be ashamed of."

The last 20 years of my active premie life I was embarrassed to tell anyone that I was a follower of Rawat. It wasn't always so easy because I was constantly darting off to remote cities with no notice; to drive Rawat, go to a program, or run some urgent errand for the master. Most times I would just try to avoid the issue and hope nobody would notice I had disappeared. When I had to provide some kind of explanation, I would always make up a complicated story that would confuse people until they didn't care where I was going. But if my colleagues from work found out what I was up to it could have really hurt my business reputation and definitely it would have damaged my social relationships. Looking back, what kind of absolute truth could be so disconcerting that a believer would have to lie about it? I guess I always tried to compare the sense of alienation I felt to the Christians being persecuted after Jesus was crucified. Seems like Rawatism contains a justification for everything.

1st November 2010 - All credibility aside…..

"the way premies these days so easily sweep all that under the rug in their dealings with the public as if it's something the public doesn't need or deserve to know about, and by how easily we all adapted to the stark contradictions between Knowledge then and Knowledge now without asking any questions, as if it was our duty to go along with whatever Maharaji wanted and however he chose to present himself at the time."

Thanks Lakeshore! This is a fantastic summary of many thoughts that just needed to be said exactly how you expressed them. To me it really goes directly to the incredible denial that is so easily assimilated by premies who continue to blindly follow Rawat. Aside from his bad behavior, selfish obsessive consumption, and manipulative lies and deception, Rawat"s pitiful attempt to thoroughly and methodically change his brand, destroyed any shred of credibility he might have had.

The fact that Rawat once so convincingly presented himself as GOD incarnate and now is just a plain old humanitarian teacher, blows the whole scam to smithereens! Why would GOD himself, who has come to finally straighten out this blithering mess, need to somehow suddenly disguise himself at all? What possible reason could be cooked up to explain that! The world wasn't ready for him? Then why come in all that glory in the first place and at that particular time back? Didn't want to wake that sleeping dragon called the media? Why would God be alarmed about some bad press coverage? Perhaps it was just a miscalculation to think that the world would actually be able to accept GOD in his true form (i.e.) dressed up in Rawat's Krishna costume? Better to stand behind a podium in a business suit in a back room at the UN. Its now become more politically correct and not as upsetting to those simple minded human beings GOD himself had come to save. Why would GOD care about being politically correct? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

Any premie who was there in the beginning, and still has a shred of rational thought left, can not deny the impossibility of Rawat being GOD. Even Rawat attempts to deny he ever made that claim. And from what he said and did in the beginning, if he's not actually GOD, then he's one of the biggest liars in modern history. It can't be both ways; therefore he's a complete fake. There is no other conclusion. Premies who still follow Rawat after honestly looking at all this, are just happy to continue to lie to themselves and blubber on in complete and absolute delusion.

4th November 2010 - It's the People and the Music.

Fantastic video and I love James Taylor's music. I listen to him all the time; Mud Slide Slim is my favorite. But as I watched this video it was interesting to see how the camera panned the audience just like in a Rawat video. It showed the expressions of the people who were listening and obviously they were each enjoying the experience they were having in their own way. It seemed like those shots were included to make the viewer feel more a part of the concert and to show how the people in the audience were relating to the music. Their reaction was pretty normal and kind of how we've felt when engaged in a special moment. I didn't get the feeling that the video was trying to say anything particular about the power of James Taylor. Its just people listening to music.

In a Rawat video however, the panning of the audience always seemed to try to provide reinforcement for how significant and profound Rawat was and how his powerful message stopped people in their tracks. Those shots are provided as a testimonial for Rawat. The audience always looked mesmerized and stunned and people often had a canned smile or expression on their faces. I remember the feeling of sitting in a hall motionless while desperately hanging onto Rawat's every word to try to squeeze out that last drop of experience from "that precious moment." The idea was to try to enter a trance like state where I had somehow melted myself into the essence of Rawat's brilliant and timeless message. There was a lot of internal struggle going on to try to create a certain feeling while I was sitting there, and then I'd try to hang on to it like I could take it home with me. It was a lot different than just naturally enjoying a James Taylor concert.

7th November 2010 - Question for Candice

Hi Candice, Glad you have started posting here and I appreciate and respect your thoughts and comments. I have been a diligently practicing premie for 34 years and spent a lot of time with Maharaji personally, so I'm certainly not inclined to criticize premies. But I do just have one question for you and ask that you please answer honestly; do you think or have you ever believed that Maharaji is God or some kind of divine being like the Lord?

7th November 2010 - The Lord of the Universe???

Thanks Candice. I've read your previous post several times but just can't seem to find your answer to this specific question. You and I are about the same age, seem to have been introduced to Maharaji at about the same time, and exposed to a lot of the same experiences through our contact with him and his organizations.

I guess its natural as we all grow older in life to look back at what we have done and try to understand what it has meant; the good, the bad, our beliefs, our relationships, what we've learned, and really what we might have done differently. When I began to connect all the somewhat disassociated dots about the experience I was promised, who Maharaji defined himself to be both in the past and in the present, plus my own personal exposure to Maharaji and his hypocritical behavior, it started to become clear. This was not what I had signed up for and I had in fact been purposely mislead.

Its not that I didn't apply myself properly or adequately or as Maharaji had instructed and taught. I gave it my absolute best. I had made Maharaji and Knowledge the central focus and reference point for everything I thought, felt, or believed for over 34 years. During those years some rough calculations indicate that I had logged about 15,000 hours in meditation, and attended over 150 programs where I sat listening to Maharaji at least 500 times all over the World. I personally drove Maharaji at least 100 times and did direct service at the Malibu residence regularly for over 20 years. I spent hours talking to him, knew his family, and spent several days privately in the company of his wife, Marolyn. (I was told as recently as a few years ago by the residence staff, that Maharaji had ordered that we address her as Durga Ji because she was our Holy Mother.)

I'm saying this because all of my effort was an incredibly significant investment on my part, as my half of an agreement with Maharaji. As part of that agreement, Maharaji had also made a promise to me. He said "give me your love and I will give you peace". He also offered many other promises while representing himself as having the power to essentially provide enlightenment if I unquestionably followed his direction. He promised I would instantly see the "light of 1,000 suns" within inside of myself. I would hear the "music of the spheres", and feel the "primordial vibration" which was the Word of God himself. All of this would happen while I was divinely intoxicated by drinking from a "fountain of nectar".

When none of this happened, and being a diligent and committed person, I thought a little more effort on my part might have been the problem. I was also willing to overlook the way Maharaji went undercover and changed his public persona, thinking all the time that I was actually one of the lucky few who knew who he really was. In addition, when it came to my thoughts about Maharaji's questionable behavior, I had learned to live by the adage "leave no room for doubt in your mind". I probably would have continued to fool myself into thinking Maharaji would actually deliver on all he had promised. But I started to question myself as I mentioned above and really take an honest look at the whole situation. When I did, combined with some of my personal experiences with Maharaji, I just had to leave. I've been glad I did ever since, even though it hasn't been easy shrugging off all of the programming and conditioning I was subject to by Maharaji and what has proved to be a Cult. Below is a paragraph from my first post on the forum a little over a year ago which explains an event which was the tipping point for me. Thanks Candice and best wishes.

"This is my first post, but after 34 years I just could not be fooled any longer, or put another way, fool myself any longer. The last straw came when I was driving him a couple of years ago, which I had done at least 100 times before, over about a 16 year time frame. He stumbled off his plane and as I held the door to the car for him, he walked into me totally drunk. After getting him safely in the middle of the back seat, I drove him about 20 minutes to one of his houses, and the entire time he was laughing hysterically. Only it wasn't a funny kind of laugh. Instead, it was a maniacal, nasty, put one over on everyone, jokes on you, kind of laugh. I have never heard anything like it and he just could not control himself. Sitting there, drunk, he was laughing at me, at you, at everybody and everything, in a way that was saying "fooled ya, you bunch of idiots".

8th November 2010 - Clarification

Thanks for your reply but I wanted to make sure you understood what I was saying. Its not that I didn't have any experience at all. Its just that Maharaji grossly exaggerated his claims about what he was offering and who he was. He clearly promised me spiritual "enlightenment" and went to great lengths describing what that would be like and why it was important. He also clearly assured me that he was a divine being who had the power to grant me enlightenment by his "grace". All I had to do was follow his instructions and it would all happen. That's why I got Knowledge and that's why I diligently practiced it and obeyed his instructions for all those years.

If Maharaji had presented himself to me the way he is presenting himself today, I never would have even asked for Knowledge or followed him at all. I wanted spiritual enlightenment exactly how he promised me it would be. That's why I have stated that he grossly misrepresented what he was offering and I categorize him as a liar. He is a liar. He lied about what he promised and who he is. The light I was promised was not described as the kind that you see by crunching on the nerves in your eyeballs. The etherial music of the spheres he promised that I would hear, was supposed to be more than a mild case of tinnitus or ringing in my ears. It was supposed to be more like choirs of angels singing the praise and glory of God. Holy name is a very relaxing breathing exercise and I felt quite good from practicing it, but its not the eternal "Word of God" as he so confidently described it to be. I don't know what the heck nectar is supposed to be but I absolutely hated that technique.

I'm not asking for pity and I'm not here to complain. But its not OK to lie, get caught doing it, then continue to lie about lying! Especially while proclaiming to honor and promote the Truth. That's what Maharaji has done. I post here to counteract those lies as effectively as possible in an attempt to explain the actual truth to potential victims of Maharaji's lying. It is a decent and honorable effort to set the record straight while exposing what is false.

What Maharaji did by lying is morally wrong and it cost many innocent victims of his lies very dearly. Common decency would dictate that if he has now corrected himself about what he is offering and who he is, then he should at least acknowledge that and apologize. But he hasn't and he won't. Instead he calls those of us who actually are speaking up about this, "unlit matches" who just don't get it. That is just another lie to cover up the pile of lies he is attempting to hide behind. Personally I'd like more than just an apology from Maharaji. I'd like my money back. He willfully encouraged me to give him hundreds of thousands of dollars of my own hard earned money. He then used that money for his own consumption based on those same lies about who he is and what he offered. Its called restitution and is a very common way for people to right their wrongful deeds with their victims.

13th November 2010 - 2 Cents more…..

"What happened is truly an example of the toxic nature of involvement in such closed and controlled groups. It's not just in this context that it happens."

I spent last week traveling on business and attempted to follow this thread on my blackberry which is not so easy, but I very much appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments.

It seems like what at first appeared as a sincere and personal outreach by Candice was gradually exposed as a guarded attempt to promote the values of the cult which are obviously deeply engrained in her head. Thanks to everyone for picking it apart and laying bare the substance for all the world to see. It is critically important that we do that, otherwise Rawat's self promoting lies could be effectively disguised and gain momentum among unsuspecting innocent future victims.

I watched a documentary last night about what went on in Germany during the 1930's. It carefully explained how amid social and economic unrest, a movement to gain control based on deceit and lies quickly rose to power. It was absolutely chilling but showed how people can be deluded and manipulated to support a movement they don't really comprehend at all.

Bottom line with Candice is that she is clearly deluded and the content of what she says may not be as important as her conviction to Rawat's lies. We need to continue to stop folks like her from getting away with masking the real truth. Also there still may be a few who have the possibility of breaking free like we have with continued support.

17th November 2010 - Ain't it good to know…

Thanks Tim, great comments. Today I was driving alone for a couple of hours through some beautiful mountainous countryside, listening to music on the radio. Just trying to relax a bit, thinking about a few challenging issues I'm dealing with, and trying to clear my mind after a tough week at work. It was an opportunity for a little self reflection. A great song came on by Carol King that I'm sure all of us have heard titled, "You've got a Friend". It kind of snuck up on me but all of a sudden I was listening to the lyrics and was taken by how simple but profound they were.

My first thought was about you guys being friends, and how much support you have provided during my tough time leaving the cult. Then I briefly thought about a couple of good friends I'd had in the past and even was briefly reminded of my Dad.

Suddenly this really dark feeling came over me as I remembered in sheer horror that I had repeatedly sung this song to Rawat as if he was my only true friend in the world. I actually started to feel physically ill from that thought and almost had to stop the car. All the beauty of the moment and the wonder of the song was instantly gone, as I realized how deeply I had been indoctrinated during those decades spent deeply entombed in the bowels of the cult. Rawat had literally become my reference point for everything in life.

I'm sure I have a lot more to say about this but it really is gut wrenching at times and this is one of those times. Its kind of like detox of the mind and the soul that comes in waves and purges layers upon layers of toxic poison from deep inside. Guess I'm also still getting used to having normal feelings after trying to not feel anything for most of my life. (Thanks a lot Rawat; some friend you turned out to be…..)

17th November 2010 - Re: Re: Ain't it good to know…

"by "not feel anything," you meant not feeling anything other than "that feeling" you identified with Rawat and Knowledge – or just feeling blank so that he could fill in the colors for you. You know, the moon reflecting the sun and all that tripe."

Exactly what I meant!

"the latest from Mitch Ditkoff in the WOPG Blog section. He elaborates on student, follower, devotee and friend, four of the most common words used to describe a premie's relationship with Rawat."

5. Victim….. replaces #'s 1 through 4.

Thanks Lakeshore and everyone for your kind support!

25th November 2010 - Re: Coincidence or Grace … You decide

Mahatma Vijayanand

I remember Vijay really well and got to drive him several times just before he left. He was extremely likable and looked like a light bulb to me at the time, with a beautiful smile. I considered him a fully enlightened soul and felt like it was a great privilege to be so closely involved with him.

There was a premie "sister" who I was friends with who asked for a private meeting with him to get his advise and wisdom about how to sort through some personal problem she was having at the time. Apparently he had made some sexual advances towards her in the meeting. She told me about it privately after she came out of his room. She was really upset and physically shaken by it but of course my comment was to meditate through that as if it didn't happen or didn't matter.

Even though I knew she was an honest person and would have no reason to make that up, I decided it was impossible for a Mahatma to have done that and pretty much internally denied I had heard it or it even happened.

30th November 2010 - Re: Mahatma Gurupujanand

I spent a good bit of time with Ira between 75' and 79' and always enjoyed it because I liked his intensity about practicing knowledge. He was extremely disciplined and self controlled which translated into expecting a lot from other aspirants and premies. Guess he ended up using knowledge to try to stop that Wrigley's gum song in his head. Anybody know what happened to him?

1st December 2010 - Re: Mahatma Gurupujanand

"I presume that must be particularly difficult for people like you and Lakeshore, who in your different premie "careers" were both intense practitioners, to come to terms with."

I can't speak for Lakeshore but you've nailed me with this one Ocker. I always gave it my absolute best and believed my just reward was not just that the promise of enlightenment would one day be fulfilled, but that I had earned a spot sitting right next to Rawat himself. To me it could just not get any better than to be his personal servant and driver sequestered in a private car. Plus I was honored with the most privileged, serious, and difficult responsibility of transporting his divine form under extremely dangerous conditions. Jeeezzzz….. How deluded can a person be? I'd ask God to help me but now I'm afraid to even do that.

1st December 2010 - Normal Others

"I could no longer accept others as equal to premies in terms of their "clarity" and "understanding" of the most important matters in life. At worst, others were severely handicapped, living in darkness."

Great analysis Lakeshore. In my sheltered existence within the protected and isolated world of the cult, I really didn't have much interaction with "others". There were those I knew through my job, but that was a pretty sheltered world too. Everyone there had learned how to get along and work together. I didn't have any normal friends and really no social life at all. For over 30 years I lived in a bubble.

Then I suddenly found myself in a really difficult and seemingly impossible legal situation. Suddenly I became closely exposed to a team of great lawyers and other professionals who were about my age but had progressed through life via more conventional channels. I guess you could say these folks were normal in the sense that if I had not been embroiled in the cult, I might have turned out a little bit more like them.

As I got to know them more closely, I really developed a deep respect and appreciation for how they addressed tough issues and interacted and related with people. They thought through things, considered options, weighed possible outcomes, and took responsibility for their thoughts, actions, and the consequences of their own involvement. These guys weren't handicapped at all and seemed to possess a pretty good dose of clarity and understanding of their own.

At the same time I kind of watched myself drifting around in a detached state of mind while attempting to displace myself from what was actually happening. Instead of engaging my mental faculties, I'd pray and hope that the grace of my Master would secure the best possible result as long as I remained focused and centered "within inside". My efforts were expended towards not thinking when what was required was careful and thoughtful analysis.

I'm certain this exposure was a critical step in my ex-ing as I witnessed the beauty and strength of well tuned minds in action. The contrast to my own mental and emotional development was stunning. Looking back now, it really helped me snap out of a self imposed stupor and get back in touch with my analytical thought processes. From there, my emotions and feelings slowly and painfully began to awaken. This went on for a couple of years.

During the same time period I was driving Rawat every few months so I'd get to regularly interact with him personally. Subconsciously I'm sure I was comparing Rawat and the highest and best exposure to his world, to my experience with the pinnacle of analytical thinking and professionalism in the real world.

My own natural conclusion was that I was the one who was severely handicapped and living in darkness. I was the one lacking clarity and understanding and not the "others". My condition was the direct result of following Rawat. Rawat's personal condition as I observed, was actually much worse than my own. In addition to seeing him as the cause of my delusion, I began to see him as the self centered liar and fraud that he really was. That's when it all came crumbling down.

3rd December 2010 - Re: The purpose of the talk

"Of course I am not going to forget my thirty years on the launching pad, nor will I stop writing about it occasionally, but it was just a launching pad, and what happens having launched off is much more important, relevant, exciting and joyful. The irony is that while I was on the launch pad for thirty years, I thought I *was* on my life journey - to the Lotus Feet of the Lord. How refreshing to now see it as just a launch pad."

Thanks for this Mike; it really helps me gain a perspective. As you can probably tell from my recent posts, I'm still securely embedded in trying to figure out what the f**k happened to me for most of life. Posting and reading here is a tremendous help but maybe I ought to try and write a book! Great to hear from you and I really appreciate all you have done and are still doing. Thanks again.

5th December 2010 - Re: Yes, that's it - Swiss House, not Cottage

I spent a week there one time; on the left is the "guard house" where security and house managers hang out and protect the entrance. To the right of that is a large garage that had several nice cars in it when I was there. One of them was an antique Rolls Royce and I think there was also a vintage Jaguar. Under the "+" is the main house. Above and to the right of the tennis court is a large vegetable garden and there were some chickens running around over there that laid eggs. I had heard a story about Daya cracking one of the eggs to cook, and to her complete and total surprise, found a live chicklet inside. Apparently she was pretty traumatized by the experience and as anyone can imagine, Rawat was not pleased. I'm sure some poor premie paid dearly for that event!

Swiss House

9th December 2010 - Re: I'm baffled!

"As I row your boat across the ocean, all I ask you is to stay in the boat, relax, and enjoy the ride." - Prem Rawat

Its probably just one of those wink nudge insider references for the true believers who actually know who Rawat really is (the second coming only this time with full powers)….. I'm sure if Rawat was ever cornered into explaining this "simple message" it would all revert back to some 3rd person reference to "I" actually meaning the divinity within inside all of us that we just need to get in touch with. He again is just pointing his humble finger in the direction in which we need to go. Seek the truth, follow your heart, I'm the messenger. Blah, blah, bla, bl, b……

9th December 2010 - Re: I'm baffled!

Thanks Steve; loved your journey the first 2 times I read it and will go read it again. I've been working on writing mine but just can't seem to get it all boiled down the way you did and in a way that has some meaning to it. Right now it just kind of reads like "deluded 20 year old gets duped and it takes about 34 years to realize it; then leaves the cult. Rawat was a fake all along. It really sucked that it happened. Won't let that happen next time, I guess." See what I mean?

13th December 2010 - "the last of the bleu cheese dressing … "

Could anyone actually read this crap all the way through??? I stopped just after Mitch's extremely creative phrase I copied above. In some strange way these words seem profoundly relevant right now. Kind of like Rawatism is finally getting close to the bottom of the jar.

14th December 2010 - Re: I'm baffled!

"If you believe that this world is a fantasy, and that it is a desirable aim to exit that 'fantasy'….. it is the prime reason premies are so immature and shallow and have difficulty developing relationships."

Thanks John and please pardon my slight editing to condense this excellent observation, but your words really struck a nerve with me. I did just that for the better part of my life. I tried to label the real world as a fantasy and avoid contact with it; as if it was contaminated with germs that might infect the sterilized Bubble of Rawatism I was hiding in. Could my perception have been anymore inside out and backwards???

I recently spent a weekend in New York with some friends and family. Instead of sightseeing or visiting tourist attractions, we just kind of melted into the rhythm of the busy every day life of the City. As we walked the streets among tens of thousands of other people, just about anything and everything was going on. People from nearly every race, culture, religion, economic and social status, celebrities, homeless, young, old, prostitutes, police, professors, and a couple of thousand drunks dressed up as Santa were just up and about doing what they were doing. It was a slice of life in time infused with the distinct collective odor and flavor of humanity in action. Apparently all of this has been going on for centuries. Yet now that my Bubble has burst, I was taking notice for the very first time.

I ate some fantastic pizza and had a slice of the world's best chocolate cake. There were brilliant displays of Christmas lights and decorated windows that had taken months to create all for others to simply enjoy. I thought about all the bricks and mortar that had been placed by hand one at a time to construct those giant skyscrapers, some with gilded gold or carved limestone trim. Some of what I saw was ugly and some people I met were just rude, but the essence of it all had a real and tangible quality and substance to it. Everywhere I looked I was touched by the sense of expression just for the sake it and just because it had to be expressed. I was finally seeing the world as something other than fantasy. It was amazing.

From inside the Rawat Bubble looking out, I could never touch any of it, never hear it, smell it, feel it, or really even ever acknowledge it. Nor did I want to. In fact it was forbidden and Rawat made sure that I was afraid of it. Gradually the walls of the Bubble turned to haze and I was no longer even aware of the world on the outside. He convinced me that the only reality was inside the Bubble and God help me if I ever ventured out there. I needed that Bubble. It was only safe inside where he promised protection, peace, fulfillment, and happiness.

The sad part was that all that made me human remained on the outside, and I had been separated from it. My real humanity was replaced by a fantasy which was carefully orchestrated and choreographed by Rawat. In that fantasy he controlled my thoughts and beliefs. He controlled my behavior. He controlled that need for self expression. My life gradually became all about him which was exactly what he wanted.

Thank God the Bubble burst. As shocking as it has been, there is a profound sense of relief. I had to work hard to keep that Bubble pressurized and there were occasional leaks that needed repair. Looking back, it wasn't easy being a premie and holding my true nature at bay. Now there is a fresh sense of discovery as I'm finding my way through a strange yet comfortable new reality. I liked seeing New York and there are other places and things to see and lots of people to get to know. I'm not so afraid anymore. Its good to finally become a part of the real world and to feel the rhythm of life that was always right there.

"Jasper"16th December 2010 - The Boxster

"Doesn't Rawat live in a bubble? A completely different type of bubble where his wealth and servants keep normal life at bay or at least normal human beings at bay. How does he spend his time when he's not working, when he's not playing the role of Miragee?" Ocker

After thinking about this question, I really couldn't remember Rawat actually doing anything that could be considered productive or of real value. Mostly he would just pontificate, express his grand opinions, or bark out orders to fulfill his never ending self indulgent demands. This of course kept lots of premies very busy, all in the name of direct service. It was easy to justify any activity as critically important if it was to satisfy a request from Rawat, no matter what the actual substance was. Ocker's question made me recall the story below, which describes what it was like to be personally involved in service to Rawat. Repeat this type of event over and over again, and it provides some insight into what its like on the inside of Rawat's complex and dramatic world.

In late 1996 and with great anticipation among sports car enthusiasts, Porsche came out with a new model called the Boxster. Rawat just had to have one. Of course in his usual obsessive style, Rawat's Boxster had to be exactly the way he wanted it. The car was in high demand at the time, and special custom orders were particularly hard to get. Dealers only had so many allocated for delivery and orders were backed up for months. I just happened to have a close friend who was a Porsche dealer and word got back to Rawat that I just might be able to pull a few strings and get him one. I was asked to see what I could do and instructed to do or say whatever it would take to quickly secure a car. That was just the beginning of what became one of the most horrifying experiences of my premie career.

I called my dealer friend and persuaded him to bump some other guy's order and put Rawat's car at the top of the list. With a feeling of great joy and accomplishment I reported back that the car was secured and ready to be modified however Rawat so pleased. It would then take about 3 months for delivery. The thrill of direct service in such an important and personal way was almost overwhelming. I found myself on the front lines of a chain of command to satisfy a special request of my Master. All that mattered was that he would be pleased.

The way the process worked was pretty complicated. Apparently Rawat would sit in his office and thumb through catalogs studying various options that were available for the car. He would then select those he wanted and tell the residence staff and his personal secretary. This information was then passed on to a designated premie who became my contact. That premie would call me with the details about Rawat's specific requests. I would notify the dealer and let him know what options were to be added to the car. At first this process went relatively smoothly. Then, as options were added or deleted as Rawat repeatedly changed his mind, all hell began to break loose.

After half a dozen reorders, it became pretty clear that Rawat just couldn't make up his mind, or the options he wanted added to the car just weren't available. On top of that, each time he wanted to add an option, he insisted that the price didn't go up. Of course the idea of negotiating the price on a special order car with a waiting list, totally baffled the dealer. This was a seller's market and the dealer could command just about any price he wanted. The dealer had already bumped another eager buyer who was willing to pay full price. And it wasn't as if Rawat really cared about the price. He just wanted to "win" and beat the dealer down. Rawat insisted that he deserved special treatment and consideration no matter how unreasonable he was.

The chain of premies within the process complicated matters even further. But that's how Rawat wanted it done. Obviously it was set up like that to buffer Rawat from all the haggling while preventing feedback about his ridiculous demands. His requests went through at least 3 or 4 premies before I was told what to say to the dealer. By the time Rawat's demands were passed on to me, the intensity and urgency of each request was amplified to a near frenzied level. Then when I had to send messages back expressing resistance from the dealer, the tension and pressure between the premies became unbearable. Nobody wanted to tell Rawat he couldn't have what he wanted or that it might cost a dime more than he thought he should pay.

Finally after several days of strained negotiations, the order was confirmed and a delivery date was scheduled for the car to be shipped to port in Florida. From there it would be trucked to California and delivered to the Malibu residence. As I said this was clearly understood to be about a 3 month process. It all seemed downhill from that point but in fact the situation just got worse.

After a couple of weeks, Rawat started to ask, through the chain of command, "where was the car ?" He demanded to know what was holding up his order and who was responsible for the delay. Of course there was only one simple explanation; the car was being built in Germany and then had to be shipped. But apparently that explanation just wasn't good enough. At one point I was able to confirm that the car was built and headed for Florida. It would take several days for the ship to cross the Atlantic. Every day I'd get a call asking where it was and what could possibly be done to speed up delivery. I'd have to call my friend the dealer and then report back. He would respectfully reply that the car was on a ship, the ship traveled a certain speed, and all he knew was that it was on its way. As this explanation was passed back to Rawat apparently he became more irritated and enraged. How dare it take so long to get him the car. We were subsequently all characterized by Rawat as incompetent and pitiful.

The car finally arrived at the port but had to be serviced and then trucked to Malibu. This took more time and resulted in more anger, frustration, contempt and blame from Rawat. When he received the car, I heard he hardly ever drove it. It was just added to his collection along with the others as another token of his grand importance and relevance.

Looking back, I felt terrible about the whole experience and in some twisted way I felt responsible for Rawat's frustration. In truth, nothing could have been done better and the process went as smoothly as possible. But I had let down my Master and was made to feel unworthy of his trust. There was never a word of thanks or appreciation. I remained terrified I would let him down every time I was asked to do something. I always felt a strange mix of fear, anxiety, and devotion as I continued to serve him at every opportunity. As a good premie however, I tried even harder to please him no matter how impossible it really was. I think this was pretty much how we all felt as I stayed close to him for another 11 years. That's when I finally had enough, turned my back, and walked away.p

17th December 2010 - The last match in the box…..

"they've reached that state of perfect delusion from which one never returns. They've realized Knowledge. They've made the delusion so real in their lives that there can never be another reality or way of looking at things, especially Prem Rawat."

Perfectly and brilliantly stated Lakeshore; especially your reference to "realizing knowledge" being a state of total surrender and submission to Rawat's delusion bubble. (hope my paraphrasing here is acceptable!)

I always thought there was an experience waiting for me, if I just gave it all I had, where I would ultimately "realize knowledge". Thank god I held on to that last ounce of my own humanity that would just not be expunged from my being no matter what happened, what Rawat said or did, or how hard I tried to beat it out of myself. That last ounce of my own humanity is what set me free.

Rawat refers to us as "unlit matches" meaning we just never got lit. Well maybe for each of us here, there was one match left in our box of matches that escaped being burned in the flames of Rawat's all consuming hellfire. That last unlit match we held onto so tightly still had life in it. But it needed to burn in a different way. Those are the matches that are finally being struck here with plenty of warmth and light to expose the truth. I say let those matches light up and burn; burn baby burn…..