Tim Freke and Prem Rawat's "Discussion" Transcribed
Most of the long conversation is painful to listen to with Freke trying to actually have a dialogue but there is no common ground. Rawat's work has been 100% monologues and he portrays himself as the unique source of peace and understanding in the world. His perspective is that he Knows whereas all other lesser mortals can only believe. He usually presents with an arrogant, patronising smugness as the so-called Knower who offers the hapless public a helping hand along the road of spiritual enlightenment or in later years personal development. He does attempt to make it look like a discussion but always tries to control the subject. This does not seem to work with Freke who continues with constant, good-hearted attempts at real dialogue while Rawat attempts to use his self-accepted superiority to dominate the discussion and Freke, while persistent, is too polite to call Rawat's claim to omniscience out.
Freke has the annoying habit of interjecting 'yeah' throughout Rawat's speech making it difficult to understand.
At Freke's insistence Rawat, at last, reveals his story about the black hole in his career when he played Guru Maharaj Ji, the Lord of the Universe and one and only Incarnation of God. Rawat says he never believed in that Indian Religion. His claim that he was a true Master of Peace in disguise while playing a role as Lord of the Universe is not one that stands up to any scrutiny and Rawat certainly glosses over a 15 year period in his life as if it was a few days, when on his own admission, he was playing a role and Freke is too polite to ask hard questions. Here is a transcript of the event:
Tim Freke and Prem Rawat
TF: The real question I, I, I wondered, just as somebody's interested in human beings, is what was happening for you then, when you're on the big stage and not not at Glastonbury festival, but all of that period of your life where you're being seen in this way as this, you're projecting that really, of this Divine Being and now here we are having a chat and I'm talking to you. It's like what was happening for you when you were, all of these people were adoring you and it was like, what's that like? What, what was inside you and why did you change it?
PR: Well, the adoration has to be not for me, the adoration has to be for the infinite in them.
TF: But it was being directed very much at you.
PR:Of course and I realized that that is transitory, something happens and that goes away. That's not my point that I had come to get adored. I'm looking for a, "by the way guys you know I'm looking for some adoration here and you can go ahead and adore me," no, I wanted them to have a incredible fulfilling experience in their life because I truly understood that this life is an opportunity to experience something, to know the self and to experience the divine.
Tim Freke and Prem Rawat
TF: So thanks Prem for taking part in this conversation. The thing that makes me do this, is every morning I wake up. This is happening and ever since I can remember, it felt fairly mysterious. This is happening and I started wanting to have conversations with people who I suspected also have that sense that: what is this? So I started this "What is Life" speaking to people who had interest to compare notes to you know we're both in our 60s and so we've been around the block a few decades. Here it is. What is it? What should we do with it? What's your response to to to that as a startup for the conversation.
PR: Then we have well first of all thank you for talking to me about this subject. This is a subject very near and dear to me and over the period of the years that I've been talking about this, many people have asked this question in many different ways and for me it's very straightforward. What is life? It's an opportunity, just like a flower blooming, it's an opportunity. Fact the sun rises. It's an opportunity. So what is in an opportunity for and this is where everything breaks down because some people think it's an opportunity to make money. Some people think it's an opportunity to have a family. Some people think it is opportunity to do something and something to build the biggest bridge and you know build the whatever it is that they want to do. All that's OK, that can be done. But the biggest opportunity here is twofold. One, to know yourself, who you are and two to experience that power that permeates everything, not know the power, experience the power.
TF: Are they different things? Knowing yourself and knowing the power?
PR: Absolutely, because that power cannot be, you cannot get to know it.
TF: OK
PR: Because you cannot respond. This won't work. (points to head)
TF: OK
PR: And for knowing you need this (points at head) so you can experience it and what we do is we try to experience things we don't need to experience.
TF: What sort of things?
PR: In life all these things we get after, we we think that knowing yourself is trying to experience yourself and we get crossed but we shouldn't. That which should be experienced should be experienced and that which should be known because this (points at head) is involved in knowing.
TF: Oh I hear what you're saying so so you know yourself as you understand, you understand yourself.
PR: Exactly.
TF: You directly experience that which is greater than yourself.
PR: Exactly.
Tim recalls his "awakening" at 12 years old - Compare it to Rawat's bogus childhood "awakening"
TF:I really relate to that. Um. I think that's being, there was a, there was a moment in my life when I was very young and I was reminded, I'd like to ask you about it in more detail, at something in your book because I was 12 and I remember sitting on this hill and I lived in a little rural fan in Somerset West country and sitting there with my dog and thinking this mystery and the suffering and death and beauty and what the hell and feeling like all the grown ups were like in some sort of coma so I was talking about this. No one in school talked about it, my parents and no one was talking about it and yet it seems so obvious and then one day doing that, something happened and I was it's the it was the the like the beginning for me on this strange journey through life, was that number and I felt suddenly like I was catapulted into, but but but the colours everything was clear and bright and sky and the birds and the biggest thing I remember because I wrote it down in time is this like the whole universe was pulsating with love, everything's like wow, what's happened to me and I had no vocabulary to understand it I think probably the rest of my life has been like how do I get back to there? How do I go deeper? How do I talk about it? How do I understand it and you talk about experience was that the moment for you in Dehra Dun was that a similar sort of thing that you feel
PR: Exactly, you feel that, (TF: yes) just feel it don't try to, don't try to put, define it, that is the biggest mistake people make. What is this experience? No, it is to be felt. This is all you can do. You're trying to know it. You're gonna not succeed because you feel and you feel without the constraints of concepts. That day in Somerset you let go of your concepts.
TF: So I would have agreed with you if you talked to me 10 years ago, probably, well definitely, 10 years but something started happening about 10 years ago where I started to think maybe that's not quite right. Maybe it's more, kind of to me more interesting than that. Like at least not the letting go of the concepts. It's actually that you're perceiving something which is maybe maybe put it like this like another thing which you took about in the book I really resonate with is this idea that with 14 billion years of evolution to this so I mean the way I love that is 14 billion years ago there was hydrogen and now that's become you and me talking about the universe. That's, that's awesome isn't it that so, given that we're in this massive evolutionary process, which is still happening whether those experiences are like the next big step in evolution and when you said you said another point in the book you said about um we don't know when people started experiencing this but you can see the thread going through history and a lot of my work has been following that thread and going well that's interesting and this person has been and that makes sense to me I think that makes sense is the idea that just like there was a time when there was no language and then there was language there was a time when there was no reflective thought then there was reflective thought and all these things have evolved whether that ability to perceive something great, the One, the Oneness, the thing which is in everything, is actually it's not that you let go of concepts exactly it's more that you've learnt you find a new way to perceive which is an extension of the things that allow you to perceive a glass or a camera or each other, do you do you?
PR: Yeah I completely understand but my question to you then becomes do concepts, they of course they help you put everything in the bracket, give you some context but do they limit you?
JF: With limiting concepts I guess but they also liberate you don't they can you know
PR: they can also limit you
JF: they can yeah you know
PR: so if I if if for instance somebody I was just in Africa and I was in Zimbabwe and if I brought somebody from Zimbabwe into this room and said "Oh can you man that camera they would probably go no"
JF: yeah
PR: but that's because they think they can't they actually have a capacity in them to be able to do this if they all they need is knowledge
JF: yes
PR: so then then that frees that person from having to sit with just one concept
JF: okay but you, but you've given them is a whole load of new concepts like how to work something
PR: you have given them a whole load of new concepts but they came with a concept that that we couldn't
JF: that was the limiting concept
PR: the limiting concept
JF: yes yes
PR: so now they feel that they're incapable and so we too have limiting concepts
JF: for sure, yeah
PR: and these concepts trap us so you look at religion in this world and so many people are trapped by their own beliefs that they have beliefs, not knowing, but beliefs that this is this way this is this way this is this way and what if Heaven is here now
JF: Yeah yeah.
PR: You know but a lot of people will say no no no no no its after death you will get to heaven (JF: yeah) right so in this is I was talking about you know in in in Indian culture or in the Hindu religion you know get salvation salvation is to to to not have to come to this (JF: this horrible place again) and so somebody wrote to me, said by the way, I'd rather find it very nice here. (JF: Yeah) that it's actually very pleasant, the sky is blue, the sun shines, the trees are green. It's just beautiful and this is exactly what Kabir says that when the invitation of death came to him he started crying because the joy and the contentment that you can feel here is not available even in heaven.
JF: Kabir, I love Kabir, beautiful so it's beautifully put
PR: yeah so this to me we have to be we have to be very very careful of what concept is trapping us
JF: yes so then it becomes would become about, so what is a concept, really, you know, it's like, it's surely, we're how we perceive reality right now is through our senses, which but our senses really are doing not mean they're perceiving the lights, say, but it's it's putting everything in a category which allows us to go green, chair, prem, water, conversation, camera, time, all of that and that and we can perceive that, you know, one of the things I've often thought about is if you took someone from the Amazon and you showed them a watch, they wouldn't see a watch. They would see a bracelet, perhaps leather, perhaps for the strap, circle for the watch face. But they wouldn't see a watch because they wouldn't have the, the idea of watch and they would need that to see a watch. So that if the the more we've understood about the nature of reality and we've developed that sophistication, we can then perceive more. So we're conscious of more and it feels like in that moment where you suddenly, whether it's out in the world or whether you're going quietly within and you perceive so much more. It It It's like you're, you're able to perceive in a, in a way that you maybe couldn't before or which is not very common, but which is emerging. I think there's more people now than they were for instance.
PR: Yes. You know all that's true but we really have to be cognizant of what is limiting us (TF: okay) because there is a freedom in not being limited.
JF: Ok so do you think so there's two ways of looking at that isn't there? There's the kind of more traditional way which maybe is what you're saying which is the only thing stopping you is what's limiting you, took away the limits you'd be there and then there's the more evolutionary picture which I've started to get interested in which is no it's not just that you're limited it's actually you need to evolve in a certain direction, it's a it's a faculty you need to acquire not just it's not just about removing something it's about actually developing something
PR: okay so there is one part of it that we need to know. I'm coming back to my (TF: yeah yeah) know (TF: yeah yeah) and then there is another part of it that we just need to experience (TF: yep) because by definition that which cannot be created and cannot be destroyed, that which was, is and will be, this is, this is this definition according to Guru Nanak (TF: yep) was, is and will be. (TF: yep) Now who are you in this picture, in this picture of was, is and will be, you weren't, you are and you won't be.
JF: That's another question of course (PR: yes) which I'd like to ask your opinions about because (PR: of course) I was interested in the different things you were saying OK but we'll go with it. Let's go with that for now.
PR: Yeah so saying that you are more than just the face, (TF: yeah) you are your understanding of things (TF: yeah) you are a total sum of that, you need your brain (TF: yeah) to function by the way (TF: yeah) um and you need your faculties and and and all of that stuff. So there is something that you can experience and something you can know. But if you try to cross them and try to experience that which you should know and try to know that which you should experience you're gonna have a problem.
JF: OK I'm gonna Um I'm gonna have to sit with that division cause I'm aware that everything, you know I'm experiencing the seat in my bottom on the chair
PR: but but but but the one that I'm talking (TF: but this) about is like what was (TF: this) is and will be
JF: that is something you have to experience
PR: you have to experience that is not the chair. (TF: Yes yes) it's in the chair. (TF: Yeah I agree) but it's not the chair JF: I think I mean complete agreement (16:22)
PR: and so most people make the mistake of trying to know that and they tried to experience things that is completely beyond them. They will never be able to come comprehend these experiences they can come up with a theory of why this is this way but going even beyond that this is why
JF:isn't that true of all experience though?
PR: No there is an experience that touches the heart and it is valid it validated not by ideas but by the feeling.
TF: I'm completely resonate with that (PR: and so that) that was that was definitely my moment on the hill and what I've been exploring ever since (PR: exactly) I get that but there's also you know the famous story about the mango with the the How can you explore how can you describe the knowledge of God well how could you describe the taste of sweets and someone who hadn't (PR: exactly) eaten a mango what's always fascinated me about we're not always actually quite recently has fascinated me about that story is that it's true of knowledge of God if someone hasn't had that experience how would you describe it to them but it's also true of just everything like like literally eating a mango so what we can communicate about requires shared experience so if you're talking to someone and you realize oh they've they've had that experience you can start talking about it you'll never capture it in words because words are just pointing towards things, are ways of of sharing but that but you know you could talk about how sweet a mango is to someone who went "oh yeah I know that I've eaten a mango" and the same to somebody who's had what I those deep awakening experiences
It's a bit like this, if I ask you a question if I have a mango in my pocket and I come to you and I say have you ever had a mango and you say "Yes I have I need not say anything, I can just give you the mango, (TF: Yes) and Rahim says exactly that since those people who haven't had the experiences and he says when you talk about the experience of the infinite (TF: yeah) it is like this, that those who haven't had it would love to talk about it and those who have it say nothing
TF: Tao Te Ching, first lines of the Tao Te Ching is the same as that is about to say a book and he says those you speak do not know those who know don't speak (PR: exactly) and so I love that about what you're doing. I love that emphasis on experience. I think for me you know I'm I am a, I want to understand the knowing but I completely get the centre of it is that direct that's why I call it the mystery experience or the deep awake. It's like you're it's, it's so more
PR: And here's the here's the catch, knowing yourself is much easier than experiencing that which was, is and will be
19:25TF: so what do you mean by know yourself
PR: know yourself (TF: what does that mean?) all your potential that you have, that the infinite is in you, the addresses
TF: so when you quote Socrates and things like that you're talking about knowing your individual nature?
PR: knowing you, who you are, as you live, (TF: yeah) your breath that comes into you that keeps you alive (TF: yeah) the infinite that is in you (TF; yeah) because this ultimately is what you are you are the joining of two incredibly opposite forces. They should never mingle. They should never merge, they should never be there and that is infinite and finite. (TF: yeah) You are about as finite as it gets. I am as finite as it gets (TF: yeah, yeah) and in me as an infinite that as infinite as it gets, so these two have come together and made me, made you, made this every human being on the face of this.
TF: So I, I, I started playing with this, ... word to try and express it. You talked about a universal self at one point very briefly, and that you know the Self which is everything and and I started playing with this idea that that what's emerging in this 14 billion year process of evolution is something you could call a unividual which is an individual but now conscious of the universal Self. Conscious of the of the of being the universe so it's like oh hi I'm Tim and the universe is Tim meeting the universe is Prem and you're unique and have all of this experience I don't have and here I am we're meeting and the shift that happens when you look into somebody's eyes and see that, that feels really like the leading edge of that 14 billion year process to me
PR: and then what happens when one day Prem is gone?
TF: you mean what happens at death?
PR: Yeah. What happens? What happens? What happens to this entire spectrum of knowledge that has been accumulated that I came to the edge of? then what happens?
TF: I don't know what do you think happens. I can tell you what I think happens but
PR: well you tell me
TF: OK so my experience of being around death
PR: so now you know this or you believe this?
TF: oh well. I don't know anything, really. (PR: so this is theory?) if you mean, if you mean certainty yes certainly then I don't feel I, I can describe experiences as I had that experience that's the sort of certainty but in terms of how I understand anything it's constantly evolving and most of my life I've been going ohh I was wrong about that, was wrong about that
PR: but also in our 14 billion
TF: so are you looking for the best guess I'm looking for like what's the wisest thing I can come up with right now but
PR: I'm glad you're being honest about it
TF: and I really hope that when we talk later that you'll say something which makes me go we're like this thing between knowledge and experience that made me I'll go away and think Oh that's interesting and hopefully I'll get a bit wiser. Yeah
PR: you know there's a lot of people who just are not honest about this position, they're like "Oh yeah I know what's gonna happen" and the thing is as long as human beings have been on the face of this earth nobody has come back and said "Oh by the way you know what that person was saying about you know what it's like up there still
TF: a few people have you know, near death experinces they have nearly died
PR: near death is not death
TF: it's not but they have come back with some very interesting tales to tell
PR: but I am talking about death I'm not talking about near death. (TF: yeah) you know that there is there is a situation which is called I nearly got into a wreck.
TF: I think it's a little bit more than that I think there's a, I think you're not taking quite seriously enough
PR: but but there is a propensity in us to want to believe that (TF: there is) there is a huge propensity (TF: there is) and that propensity has been perpetuated even to a great degree as we get into talking about this. Things that we need to experience just should be that experience
TF: but you can't have an experience I think around death, I mean I would definitely feel that where my my what I found for myself is almost the opposite of that, what I found is wow when I'm around the death of my mother, I used to work with people that are dying, they're such a profound experience and it and I had a spontaneous experience of connecting with my mother in the way that shocked the hell out of me one day I was having a massage for heaven's sake and it was like suddenly I was in another thing with my dead mother and quite extraordinary so and then as somebody who questions everything it's like okay well what was that was it a dream? was it an illusion? was it real? but it hit me with that same reality with which the universal Self hits me and so then I find myself thinking well how could that be true rather you know is there a way is it just ruled out? it could be like with the near death experiences. I've met so many people, I haven't had one, who've had them and they're not to be taken lightly. These people are transformed by these experiences and they're very similar to each other. It's not like a dream, just a dream could be anything random. So my own my own thing is is I think we can come to understand how that is, how death is not the end and obviously right now in our culture, in Western culture that's very unpopular. We've gone down the route that the body is, that the psyche, soul, is a by product of the body but that's not necessarily the case. It might be more subtle than that and it might be part of the evolutionary process which has created so many miracles that there is something which continues.
PR: there's a mother, your mother that lives in you
PR: you know it's more than that. See the difference, the difference is Prem, is the different in a, definitely we carry the dead with us, without a doubt, the question then becomes, what about them? now the difference between the mother, you know if I'm carrying my mother (PR: in this experience?) is she, is she experiencing that, that's the key question [25:40]
PR: the what you experienced of her, who was she?
TF: she was amazing. She was of every age (PR: yeah, but who was she?) what was her identity (PR: yeah) OK Well OK So there's a big question for me because I have a real interest in the nature of identity so I'm going to try this really fast and hopefully it'll make sense to you. I want to say something about time. What strikes me about this, is that what I'm experiencing is this is a flow of change in which every new moment arises from the past and implicitly contains the past and every new movement is the realization of the potentiality that's never happened before. So it seems to me that the past doesn't pass, it accumulates. The information which has made everything for 14 billion years is now running this so everything so I'm meeting everything that Prem's ever been but then everything which is given rise to human bodies to the evolutionary process right the way back to the ground of being this, what the thing which is in everything. So that your identity it becomes like this is a process we're in so and a process has an identity in time.
PR: What does the process mean?
TF: means one thing which changes into something else
PR: but that would continue to be (TF: yes!) and then you may when they come into the
TF: but then you've got then you've got the individual which is the their past that's what you are
PR: but you may evolve into an understanding someday that every understanding you had wasn't real
TF: I suspect that's almost certain
PR: so this is possible too (TF: almost) so what are you relying on?
TF: the best I'm relying on 2 things, 1 is the the best the best understanding I have. its a bit like you when you get in the plane you know it's like it could be an illusion couldn't it? it could be you don't understand something you know could could could you could die but you just go look, "I train myself up, I learn everything, I need to learn, I I I I just approach it in the best way I can and I'm open to the mystery. That feels like a good balance that both and that you were talking about which was very precious to me that you you have your best understanding and youi
PR: but you have to experience (TF: gonna go) there's an experience (TF: definitely) and that experience is that's all it is, is an experience but it's I mean of course if you got talking about it is huge but it's an experience (TF: first and foremost yeah) first and foremost (TF: yeah) so in the experiences that you are experiencing, which experience is it that truly reflects your existence?
TF: Hmm I would say all of it reflects my existence but there's an a very that experience that I think, I think it's what you're talking about and the one that I write about is the most I would say emergent, or most deep awake experience. It's like there's a, there's a level of experience which transcends(PR everything!) everything, everything, everything, (pr: everything!!) that everything. (PR: EVERYTHING). Yeah,
pr: that's The One I'm talking about. (tf: Yeah, yeah) And that has to be experienced, (tf: yeah) 28:55 And that is the reality. That is the reality.
TF: What do you mean by that? Isn't it all reality?
PR: No, it sits at an apex.
TF: It's the most real.
PR: It is the only thing, according to Kabir, according to all all these people
TF: that was a long time ago. Things have moved on.
TF: Well, yeah, but there are certain things that will always be true. (TF: Okay) And this is one of them, that IT cannot be created, and it cannot be destroyed. It cannot be destroyed. It's always there. It has been, is and will be. That is its nature Its nature is reality. Of all things that we perceive to be real is a reflection of that. All that we perceive isn't reality, because we too, when they have to go. And when we go, we will not be sitting in this room anymore. (TF: correct) And we won't be looking out that window and going, gee, when we were there last, that was sunny, and now its raining.
TF: So why does that make this not real?
PR: This is not real in the long term, (TF: Oh permanence) permanent (TF: OK) because that reality is permanent. It doesn't change.
TF: So I wonder whether it doesn't change, because it has no qualities to change.
PR: It doesn't change because it doesn't need to change. (TF: It doesn't need to change). Yes, it has no leeway left to change. This is perfection
TF: You call it at one point something which was so evolved it didn't need to evolve (PR: Exactly) anymore. (PR: Exactly) I wonder whether we need to understand the experience of that in an evolutionary way as well. And it literally is the most evolved thing.
PR: We need to evolve. We should evolve. Our brains are triggered to evolve. (TF: Yeah) but there is something that doesn't need to evolve. (TF: Doesn't need to) Doesn't need, has no need. We need to evolve. We. need. I mean, if this bottle, this water bottle is sitting here and it is not accessible to me. Say if it's sitting in behind this plant and is not accessible to me, I will change its position for my benefit. Very simply. And what I have just done is I have evolved. I have just taken it from here, which was in not accessible and made it accessible to me.
TF: OK, so if we're evolving, OK. So if there's this. I'm gonna present what I think you're saying. And please correct me. I'm sure you will. It's is if there's this thing. And I'm very sympathetic to everything you're saying, actually. Just want to clarify. I think I see it's slightly differently. Is that there's this the thing which is what it is, which is everything. But it's gone through this 14 billion year process. It looks like in our universe to arrive at the experience of it through us, that we've we've arisen so we can experience it and therefore it can experience itself presumably because we are and that's taking 14 billion years and it doesn't look like it was programmatic. It looks a bit random to begin with, it becomes programmatic but it starts, it's pretty chaotic and so I wonder whether it's more like it's a more like to use the old-fashioned word God. It's more like the universe is flowering into God rather than it being there and having no needs and all being fully formed. It's like there's a there's something which could be anything. There's a potential potential means power but it's a potential it's a thing that could be anything which is in the process of becoming this and then it's arisen as us who are conscious of being and then through us we can be conscious of it and then suddenly you've got it this beautiful circle where it is now conscious of itself through us as individuals so the one knows the one through being two
PR:and what would be the need.
TF: don't know is it perhaps there's no need perhaps it's simply that what the way that reality appears to be is what it is which is it's the realization of ever new potentials. That's what it is.
PR: So something is being driven without a need.
TF: I don't think it's being driven by anything I think it may be just what it is it is the realization of potential
PR: so. for instance if there was something 14 billion years ago and it was perfect, like you know you look at sharks any day you do they may have evolved a little bit but most people say they've evolved very little because they didn't need to. How can that be? How can that be that they didn't need to evolve?
TF: because their relationship with their ecology was working
PR: so so so. what if there is something and that relationship that that thing has with the entire universe created and non created the vacuum in the space the full of hydrogen and dust and everything else and this relationship was perfect. Indeed, if it was called perfect
TF: what does that mean? Perfect?
PR it doesn't need to change, it doesn't age, it is beyond the limits of all that that we don't like and we are enslaved by (TF: yeah) because I don't want to change I don't want to get old but I'm going to get old (TF: its happening every day) its happening every single day I would rather I would rather that I remain 21 that was pretty nice age I could you know sign and get a rental car and and and and do all those things but that's not the way it is I have been aging, I I have serious limitations placed upon me as free as I want to become of those things I still have to respect them whether I like them or not regardless of what I can tell myself. I mean you know there's all these people there they go oh you're only 91 year old young. well (laughs) that's a great thing to say and it's a lovely attitude and I I I I just I just have a great time when somebody says that but the fact of the matter is the person sits down on the chair and they want to stay seated and if they get up they can't sit down and they need one of those chairs that assist them to get in get out this was not the case at one point in time so at one point in time that person probably just you know it was all over the place and running around here and doing this and doing that and something has changed and now
TF: so what's the relationship for you then between this thing which is already perfect and this process of evolution
PR: the relationship is this that that this body that I have is a product of the evolution (TF: yes) that which is (TF: the one evolution in your) because nature wants to perfect itself (TF: but I mean right back to the Big Bang Why why the evolution of the whole universe over 14 long strange billion years dinosaurs all that craziness why that if it's already perfect
PR: it's no no that's not (TF: no no no no but if there's a presence which is already perfect?) there is and that remained perfect (TF: and it's staying perfect is there is there it is perfect and then there's and then there's this kind of all quantum particles and then matter and then life (PR: and then everything) is psyche and then life and death (PR: and and and dinosaurs) and dinosaurs
PR: and dinosaurs were an interim stage of us
TF: for sure. Birds actually especially
PR: not only birds, but so many of them reduce down to lizards that actually gave a contribution to have
TF: But why why I mean it's amazing isn't it but why if if the if there's this thing which is unchanging and perfect what's its relationship with the thing which is what's the relationship between the being and becoming to use the old phrases
PR: okay very simple and no holds bar here okay I'm not going to be diplomatic about this we are a by product (TF: okay) We are a byproduct of this thing (TF: right) that is everywhere (TF: Yes?) And because of it (TF: and why) Why are we a byproduct
TF: and why? Why? What use of a byproduct? What? Why would you want a byproduct?
PR: So
TF: if you got no needs especially
PR: that which is perfect doesn't know about this by product.
TF; Its happened byaccident?
PR: It is there. It is the wheels turning. The cogs turning and producing the heat and producing all the things that which is turning it doesn't have any idea.
TF: But if the thing but it's the thing which is animating all of this
PR: without it nothing would be animated
TF: but it's not doing it volitionally
PR: it is not doing it purposesfully (TF: no OK all right) absolutely not (TF: right I aggee with that) so no holds barred. (TF: Yeah I agree that there) and we have to understand that we have the opportunity and this is getting back to your question about life we have the opportunity to be able to experience that. (TF: yeah) okay does it have an does it have an opportunity does this this thing have an opportunity to experience us no
TF: see I think it might be might be more than that it might be that that that thing which is everything is experiencing not only being Prem right now and Tim right now but when you go into that knowing it's experiencing itself
PR: no OK I have to add that one thing anything is possible (TF: I agree) you know so thats I'm not I'm not (TF: I'm on the same page there) closing any doors (TF: right) but what I'm saying is what do you know (TF Oh none of this) I mean, I have many many days sat in a cockpit and I have looked out the window and I have said you know I'm about to go take off, I'm gonna go fly. I certainly don't see anything that's lifting the wings. (TF: Yeah) how is this all gonna happen? (TF: Yeah) And I certainly am sitting here going I hope everything goes ok. I have to be cognizant that the engine could quit and I have to be ready for it, if it's gonna quit, like one time I was coming into Austria and there was a thunderstorm right in front there was a thunderstorm like you wouldn't believe in fact they were gonna close the airport down, came in and I told I told my co-pilot said tell the tower in case there's a go around we're not gonna go straight ahead because that's what the missed approach called for. So we're gonna make a turn and he says fine there's no traffic you go ahead do whatever you have to do. Now I didn't know that that could happen that I might have to do a go around but these are possibilities so within reason I can have possibilities. Also I could sit there and go Gee the wings might fall off but I have to say no I don't need to go there.
TF: Yeah exactly so you're looking for the most plausible deepest and especially now (PR: exactly plausible) so so one of the one of the things which the reason I'd like to move us on actually but I just say this and just get your responses one of the one of the things that's really interest me on the side of the knowing not the experiencing is that okay there's the experiencing Oh wow and then there's all of this and then there's all the body of science which allows you to fly around the world and understand 14 billion years of evolution a bit. What's the what's the understanding which can knit all of that together and go all of that is part of one reality, that experience of something which is transcendent, and more and all of that and it looks to me like the evolutionary story is the key
PR: The key is your heart
TF; that's the experience right? (PR: both) OK
PR: Both because the heart can give you understanding.
TF: I if what you mean by heart is what I mean by that most emergent part of you not the thing in your chest then I think we're saying the same thing.
PR: So you're sitting on that hill in Somerset. It's a gorgeous day. You look out and you say to self "wow this is incredible" and the heart says I agree (TF: definitely definitely) now get into the realm of the mind and it says why?
TF: no I don't see it like that you see (PR: but but) don't experience it like that (PR: no no but most people do) I for me it's like (PR: most people in this world do) there's another there's A It's like an addition it's not a subtraction. Yeah that's like (PR: but most people) watch this and why is it here
PR: and once they get into it. once they get into it. this is the point there is something to be experienced. There is something to be experienced
TF: definitely right and we should get into that because I want to hear you talk about that
PR: and that is the crux of it (yes) because this is what I offer people (yes) the experience (yes) and most people don't come to me and say can you help me experience it too
TF: I'm not understanding what you're saying say again
PR: that experience that you're talking about I want to experience it too (right) can you help me experience it (yes) but instead then go why did this happen? (Oh I see) and how does this happen? and and so they get in and this is where those knowing and experience gets traded
JF: so the priorities are wrong
PR: exactly so the now the question isn't, is mango sweet and so on and why don't you just taste it and you know it's like why is it sweet? now why is it sweet
TF: so that so I think you're right it's the wrong order
PR: it's the wrong order
TF: I completely agree with you absolutely it's got to start with you know don't ask why it's sweet until you tasted it and they go wow that's amazing what's making that happen that's but those are both and there which you can you know there's room for both but clearly if you want to experience something you've not experienced before I mean have the experience
PR: I had this experience I when I was growing up in Dehra Dun we used to have mango trees and these mangoes were just so sweet so incredible that I would eat them and I mean I would eat them till I was ready to pop and it would become stupid almost then I had to sit down because it's just like Oh my God. So people so people knew that I like mangoes and so wherever I go somebody if mangoes are in season they'll bring one for me, and I was very thankful that they did but I was always say no no that wasn't as good as the one in Dehra Dun. Then one day I found myself in Cuba and in my hotel room there was a mango. Just one. I was curious so I picked it up. Took a whoof. Smell good and I proceeded to taste it and it blew me away because it was more sweeter. It was better tasting than any mango up till that point that I had tasted.
TF: So does has for you my my journey has been it's felt like it's constantly evolving in terms of knowledge but primarily in terms of experience what about you so you started very very young, much younger than me, most people think I start young but you start really young, has it evolved? has it is it just the same now as it was then?
PR: I have evolved
TF: I'm not saying the thing you're experiencing has changed because you said clearly it's changeless but your experience of the thing
PR: oh yes absolutely
TF: in what way?
PR: absolutely
TF: In what way, I'm fascinated to hear about your personal experience of it
PR: for the biggest period of my time I didn't think I had concepts (right) right
TF: right me too I got it. Yeah
PR: and then I didn't know that these concepts were limiting me
JF: right OK
PR: And when I started to purge myself of these concepts, the whole world changed
JF: of the limiting concepts, the limiting concepts. Okay? and how did your experience of the thing which always is, how how would you describe that change? And how would you describe it changing?
PR: I became more open to it, (JF: ok) and more open to it. (JF: yeah) and more open to it. And that's my evolution, (JF: right) That I got more open and more open. It's almost backwards of a marriage, if you will. (laughter) you can meet the lovely girl, and you sit down for hours, you talk about nothing, you know, you realize when you're in love, you can talk to that person for hours about absolutely nothing. And then, you know, 30 40 years of marriage, and you can't even have a conversation for 30 seconds sometimes.
I'm not going to go with that, cause my wife will watch that. And it's, we really don't have.
PR: But there are people, you know, in this, in this predicament. And it, it changes.
JF: So in that experience, so, you're you're you're primarily giving people access to this through meditation.
PR: It is a way to (JF: to focus) be able to turn inside.
JF: Yeah, yeah which is a meditation is is is in different forms.
PR: Well, no, the the the other day, I came across somebody going, you know, focus on the tip of your nose. (JF: yeah, yeah. It's not bad) (laughter) No, it's not.
JF: Um has your experience of that going within is that, it's it's like it's is it both your experience outwardly and inwardly which is deepened and evolved would you say?
PR: on the outside I have learned a lot of things but the things that I have learned on the outside I also forget. There's a, there's a I call it Parshuram 's curse. There was there's this character in Mahabharata and his name is Karan (Karna) and he goes to Parshuram and it says can you please teach me how to fight, how to be really really good and Parshuram says "OK I will but you have to tell me that you are not Kshatriyas which is a caste system and you're not and you're not a Chhetri and Karan goes "Yeah yeah I'm not bad you know, I'm a Brahmin, please teach me" the person says okay I'll teach you. so one day Parshuram says to Karan says "I'm I'm I'm really sleepy. I just need to lie down for a little while. Where can I do this?" and Karan says "Well why don't you put your head on my lap and feel free?" Parshuram goes to sleep for a few minutes later he wakes up and he sees that this blood everywhere. And he goes where is this coming from? What? What? What is this all about? And he sees that a worm has been digging into Karan's flesh and causing him to bleed. And Karan didn't even make a peep. And Parshuram says "You lied to me. You are a Chhetri. You said you weren't, but you are And Karan says, "I'm really, really sorry. I shouldn't have lied to you." Parshuram said, "Because you did. I will put a curse on you. That which you will need to know the most when you do, you will forget it." So, there are many, many things that I have learned on the outside here in this world. And when I need it the most I have a tendency to forget, on the inside there is a thing called clarity. It dwells in my heart and that clarity makes sure that I see, me, my relationship to the infinite in the most beautiful and exquisite way that it is.
TF: So I have this thing. I don't know if you've I have this thing which I do with people I used to, do still leave meditation and all that's all that turning within in various ways but the thing which I found was astonished me about 20 years ago was to get to invite people who want to to just sit with each other and do what we're doing. Look into each other's eyes and to sit there often in silence or music playing for like three minutes and then move on to another person another 3 minutes and then another person and another person and another person and another person and I think there's something about seeing it, seeing it in yourself and there's something about seeing it when you look at like I'm looking at your face now but the thing I'm connecting with just personally I can't see it is your psyche is your soul is your the thing which is looking back and then to slip into that place where there's one of us looking at itself is such a and and what I see there is the feeling this this what I call big love. It's like this enormous, it's just opens up quite naturally when we connect in that in that really deep way with just and it gets experiential is like you know for me when I do that there's like not forget every philosophy now just forget all that just looking each other don't think about it just looking each other's eyes and see what's looking back at you and you know, it's like that. That's the way in the I've been playing for folks.
PR: If you understand who you are, it's very easy to understand who you are. If I understand who I am, it's very easy for me to understand who you
TF: in that deep point
PR: in the deep, deep, deepest, deepest, deepest way. Because (52:52) you are no different than I am.
TF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PR: And if nothing else, we may not be surrounded by the same ideas. (Exactly) But we are surrounded by the same rules. Tomorrow you will be a day older. So will I. You have a thirst to want to know. You have a thirst in you to want to resolve questions. And I can see that you've been resolved in trying to resolve a lot of questions.
TF: Yeah, I love it. You know.
PR: So I can see that in you because I can see that in me. (53:38) Yeah. Now, what would happen if there was a chimpanzee closely related (chuckles) Be interested looking into each other's eye,
TF: but might just attack you. Look at people's eyes could be very violent too.
PR: Yeah. So, you know, like, definitely look into a dog's eyes and you're challenging it. They can be very challenging. So that's an understanding.
TF: What I love about it is one of the things is that the most common thing that people say is everyone's so beautiful. These are people who are strangers like the day before and odd people. You know, we're all odd in various ways, aren't we? And suddenly you're just looking at personal person. My God just gorgeous in a little different ages, types, races, you know, backgrounds, intellectuals, artists, people who aren't doing much retired people, just kids that suddenly there's this individual you're seeing the universe looking back at you.
PR: And then there are people who absolutely hate themselves.
TF: Yeah, there are. Yeah. I meet a lot of people like that.
PR: And when they see another person, all they see is the hate reflected back So yes, that can work. And Zimbabwe, I was in a prison and all. these inmates were there and so on and so forth. And some were just really having a beautiful time and understanding things that I was saying and the other ones you could see they were just like what is he talking about? not connecting with it, because there has to be a common frame of reference you know when somebody talks about water we have to know what water is otherwise it's like I don't know what you're talking about
TF: that's the key, that's the key I really think that's right. Yeah and and if it's like if I'm talking with someone about these things like we're talking it feels easy if you know the other person has got some idea of what you're saying it's like the mango again it's like you don't have to talk if you go it's sweet it's enough oh like that I got it and that so that feeling of that love and that Oneness and that communion and and that beauty, (PR: sure)
TF: So I want to ask you I want to ask you if if you would indulge me I want to ask you about you've led this incredible life and I read your other book about your life and you grew up in Dehra Dun, which was funnily enough my father was in Dehra Dun during after the war as part of the Raj before it went so I grew up hearing stories of Dehra Dun which he loved and so it's kind of mythic place for me, and then you came across here Glastonbury Festival you were 12 something young 71 and I know people who were there and two people who I knew were at the festival who became followers then of you and I I look at you now and I look at you then there's big change and I'm wondering what the real question I wondered, just as someone who's interested in human beings, is what was happening for you then when you're on the big stage and not not at Glastonbury festival, but all of that period of your life where you're being seen in this way as this projecting that really of this divine being and now here we are having a chat and I'm talking to you. It's like what was happening for you when you were all of these people were adoring you and like what's that like? what was inside you? and why did you change it?
PR: Well, the adoration has to be not for me, the adoration has to be for the infinite in them.
TF: But it was being directed very much at you
PR: Of course and I realized that that is transitory, something happens and that goes away. That's not my point that I had come to get adored. I'm looking for a, "by the way guys you know I'm looking for some adoration here and you can go ahead and adore me," no, I wanted them to have a incredible, fulfilling experience in their life because I truly understood that this life is an opportunity to experience something, to know the self and to experience the divine and they need to do that
TF: So when it was happening for you I mean you're young I mean what teens and 20s and that's a different time obviously what? what is what it did. How did you see yourself? Did you see yourself in the way that you projected yourself or did is it? Is it something which you woke up from and yourself and just went what am I saying this is this is not the way to go with this or was it something
PR: no the saying never changed, the saying stays the same, what changed was this. I had just come from India and literally everybody around and it was also the period of time where it was like look towards the east for answers (TF: it definitely was) so I was the perfectly situated for that (TF: right) Here I had come from the East and the young boy who has come with this message and everything else and we will sort this out by literally taking on a part of a behaviour that had nothing to do with knowing yourself (TF: yep) nor it had anything to do with experiencing the divine. (TF: yeah) It was literally Indian religion. (TF: yeah) And I said this has got to go because we have to respect every religion, every human being the way they want to be, we are not going to impose how they should be, how they should behave. This is up to them. Let's give them the information. Let's give them the Knowledge of the self and they will make the decisions that they need.
TF: So I think I think the question I'm trying to get that's beautifully put I really admire that immensely, it reminds me of Krishnamurti (PR: ha ha ha) you know Krishnamurti (PR: yes yes) yes so it reminds me of his story in a way that same kind of being prepared to be the Saviour and then going no I'm doing something else. I guess the question I want to is like when I was watching some videos from that time when I was reading after I read your book and looking at the difference. Thinking that's interesting, that journey that you've made its a huge journey. At that time did you believe your own hype or not?
PR: I believed in my heart.
TF: I mean did about the you know the (PR: No) the whole Perfect Master and all the (PR: Look) the Lord of the Universe and
PR: I had to go to school every day.
TF: No, I mean when you were here, here, when you were here (PR: no no, but in India too) Yeah yeah of course
PR: I was already hailed a perfect master (TF: okay) and I have to go to school (TF: right) and I was no Perfect Master in school (TF: right, right) so already this duality existed (TF: Ah Hah) where you could be and you couldn't be (TF: okay) so I come out, I come home, I'm not a Perfect Master, my mother is telling me, you didn't do this, you didn't do this do this do this (TF: right right right) I go in on weekends or on school holidays out there and there's thousands of people cheering and going yay yeah yeah of course you are and I was like well which one is it? Is it that one? or is it that one? (TF: yeah) See, and I realized I have to be me (TF: and say what) I wasn't a student nor I was the Perfect Master (TF: right) but I but I was a Master (TF: right okay) that talked about perfectness. (TF: OK yeah yeah yeah) and its as simple as that (TF: yeah) and I said I need to take this message of peace to everyone (TF yeah) no holds barred. What are the limitations?
TF: What makes you do that? I mean so it's it's so admirable. I mean you seem to work incredibly hard. You've affected a huge number of people's lives. What is it that makes you do that?
TF: It comes from the heart. (TF: yeah it's the experience itself) and the strength to do it comes from the heart. (TF: Yeah, I understand) not the logic but the logic you start looking at it and go "Oh look at that terrible article. Oh look at that" I mean do you realize how many people were lying openly on those newspapers saying "oh he does this he does this," ((TF: yeah) none of it was true, I knew that
TF: that must be horrible.
PR: But where does the courage come? Because it takes courage to say no. I'm gonna brush that aside. That's not real. We need to do so much of that today because there's so much misinformation and we all as human beings not be not be in this dire threat of wars being created by world quote unquote leaders. We need to have the courage to bring out peace, we need the courage to bring out the best in every human being. That's what has to happen. Otherwise none of this stuff makes sense.
TF: Well, I think that hits it on the head. I don't know. I don't know if there's anything you want to add but that that felt like such a powerful idea to express a feeling to express and one that I don't know
PR: otherwise what is the point of all this evolution (TF: naturally) because to me, if I can bring the best out in another human being
TF: I feel the same I just feel the same
PR: then I've done something
TF: and there is something about that experience because for me the same I mean I done all crazy things really and none of it's made any sense in so many ways in the world isn't coming to this but once you've touched it is so beautiful that you just want to serve that and anything and that's why I say it feels like we're evolving into that that this maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part I'm open to that I can easily fool myself but it part of the feeling that all the clarity that seems to arise from me is we're evolving into this where this is becoming more and human being look how we you know we are not the same we're not Vikings and killing each other and marauding bands so much not by long stretch we have moved a long way and and what if the next jump that you couldn't imagine is into the very experience you're talking about is as if that we can we can turn into this unividuals is the word I use the individuals who are conscious of that thing which is in everything and how that changes their relationship
PR: to put it in layman's term, just in simple simple (TF: yeah yeah I love simple) each human being has the potential to bring the best out in the other person as we have the potential to bring the worst out in the other person. And we have already tried that many, many times that you can see what's happening in Ukraine. (TF: yeah) and everything else, you know, in in those days when they were Vikings and so on. So they were, they were killing, they were looting, they were doing this and that. The massive scale of looting people now is unparalleled, is unparalleled. And sometimes the Vikings would get tired, so they would take a little break. Now, this is 24/7. I mean, all of a sudden your bank account is gone. You know, somebody did something, and somebody did something, and some, I mean, it's just all the time. You look at all this weird news, and it's the poor people. And they are not getting the chance to come forward. When you look at how few people there are that are dying because of the lack of food, that we could easily, easily take care of, easily take care of. But why is it, that we're not doing it? We need to, for maybe for the first time, in the history of evolution, push the evolution in the direction of peace.
TF: You know, you know, I mean, I'm completely agree. Obviously, you know, I want that to happen. But I also think it is happening because, actually, we've reduced over the last 40 years poverty beyond, I mean, there's never been a time in history where there's been so little poverty, so little war. I mean, we we have moved forward immensely, you know, and and often you watch the news and you think it was the opposite. But if you actually look at the statistics, there's some fantastic work done by people like Rosling, where you can really, it's like we have moved so far. If we can carry that on,
PR: we definitely have done some incredible things. I mean we have eradicated some diseases and we have (TF: we really have) used tribe (???) (TF: Yeah) But the point of it is people are still suffering.
TF: That's very true.
PR: I was just in these countries, I was in India, I was in(TF: of course) S Africa, I was in Zimbabwe Zimbabwe and we really need to put together collective understanding to make this a better world. I mean? we decide politically, we decide on based on news which countries are going to get help and which countries matter and which countries don't matter, they're people that maybe they're not suffering because there's lack of food or lack of clean water but they're suffering because of something else and suffering is suffering
TF: the rich country suffer everyone's you know
PR: so yeah this is this is wonderful. I mean if this message gets out and people make that you know even if one person makes that change
TF: I love that about the you know saying it's it's the individual if you can change the individual then and and yeah that's what you're doing
PR: I'm trying (ha ha) still trying
TF: good for you when did you start how many years has it been
PR: well I started speaking about peace when I was 4 years old. I've seen the photo of that amazing photo and that was 9 years old when I started when my father passed away and I took over this responsibility.
TF: Wow. Well it's been a real delight. Thank you so much for sharing this time and your feeling.
PR: Thank you
TF: and thoughts. It's been a real thank you.
PR Thank you.